So, I see that you are proponent of subjective approach. The problem with this approach is that you can only compile "My all-time favorites" list. However, this list has zero value. Any rating can be based only on quantifiable parameters and the individual stats is a valid approach, to say "stats mean little to nothing" is like to say "science means little to nothing". I am not going to argue with this.
Besides individual stats, there are quantifiable objective parameters such as the number of MVP and All-NBA First Team awards that summarize subjective views of game experts and dozens of people who watch the games for a living. It is based on these parameters I can say that Garnett is in top 25 of all time. Yes, again, I know little about the game, but this is not about my opinion, this is an opinion of people who do know a thing or two. You can think that your or anyone else's opinion is as good as that and disagree with this approach results as much as you want. This is illogical and therefore has no value to me.
I have no problem with you having your opinion based upon what you've learned about, seen and/or watched. We happen to disagree upon the value of Kobe when compared against the rest of the leagues better/best players. Any one who saw Bob Cousy will tell you, they'd rather have him then Kobe. Players like Earl Monroe, Hal Greer, Lenny Wilkins were better than Kobe. For me it is very easy to not have him make my top 100 players and for you it appears he's in the top 10, this is what makes this interesting/entertaining. :thumbsup:
Basketball was a different game in the 60's. It was a much more physical game defensively and officiated much differently. it was considered a blue collar sport, tickets were much cheaper compared to MFL and MLB and drew a rougher crowd, similiar to hockey. Shots were contested much more, hand checking was allowed, shots in the paint came with a price to pay, and dunks were considered showboating and unsportsmanlike and often came with a higher price next time the player went to the hole ( except for Wilt...no one dared get him upset). That is the main reason that FG% were lower. Passing the ball in the 50's and 60's was an art form, especially on the fast break. There is no doubt that players today generally are more athletic, jump higher, and faster but I do not automatically equate that as better basketball players. I think most players of the 60's could compete today but wonder if most player of today could have competed back then. Fundamentally, they dont pass as well, they don't rebound as well, they don't play defense as well. There was no guaranteed money back then so player tended to play harder, to play injured. Soft players did not last long back then. Jerry West had his nose busted at least a dozen times. He played with hamstring injuries that would put a player out eight weeks today. That is just a fact.
It was a much more entertaining game back then as well. Every team in the league averaged 100-110 points per game. The ball never stopped moving. It was not just the NBA either. UCLA of the sixties would have duplicated the same streak if they were playing in the 90's.
Your probably right and after his career is all over, Duncan will probably be higher on the list. i would like to see him dominate more on the defensive end and assert himself but he is a special talent. Plus, I just can't get excited when I see who is matched up against him night after night. Not his fault that he has played in an era where there are so few good big men and on a team that plays at a snails pace but rarely do I watch him and go "Wow".
Robinson was soft at times but his athleticism at that size was fun to watch. I always liked Ewing because he played his heart out. Wish he had a better supporting cast when he was in his prime.
I think you are selling Moses short though. He was so talented and if his legs did not give out there was no ceiling as to what he could have done. Same with Walton. I would take either of them healthy and in their prime over Tim Duncan.
Cowens was very good as was Hayes, Lanier, Parrish, Gilmore ( all from that golden era of the big men) but just a class lower IMHO then the one's I mentioned.
My favorite Wilt story....back in the early 80's Wilt had been retired for about 10 years and in his early to mid 40's. He was still in great shape mainly due to all the volleyball. Larry Brown was still coaching at UCLA and one summer day he stopped by Pauly Pavilion during lunch time and caught a pick up game going on and stayed to watch. It was early in Magic's career and he was playing with Byron Scott and a couple of the Clipper players, and Chamberlain, Goodrich, and West and some UCLA players on the other. Magic called some ticky tack fouls on Wilt in the paint and , according to Brown, Wilt just exploded. Wilt explained that for rest of the game, nobody was going to score in the paint but him. The ball was inbounded to Magic and he took it right to the hole and Chamberlain deposited it 20 rows deep. For the rest of the game, Chamberlain blocked every shot in the paint and, on the other end, dunked every time down. Brown called it the most amazing thing he ever saw.
Also, in the early 70's, some newspaper wrote a story about Wilt's lack of scoring ( at the time he concentrated on defense and passing off to West and Goodrich) and that he would never be the scorer that he once was. For the next three games, Wilt averaged 50+ per game. Then he went back to passing and rebounding.
If there was one golden rule in the NBA back then it was "Don't get Wilt mad."
If there was one golden rule in the NBA back then it was "Don't get Wilt mad."
Yea , thats pretty much the same rule on any playground , only in Wilts Time ... He was 7'1 260lbs Black and chiseled while the league average was 6'4 and white. I think the above statement was pretty much a no-brainer. I'd love to see a Wilt in his prime average 30 a game in todays NBA .. or 15 boards ...
Yea , thats pretty much the same rule on any playground , only in Wilts Time ... He was 7'1 260lbs Black and chiseled while the league average was 6'4 and white. I think the above statement was pretty much a no-brainer. I'd love to see a Wilt in his prime average 30 a game in todays NBA .. or 15 boards ...
hey twofingers , you say you wish duncan would be more dominate on the defensive end ..
hasnt he made the all defensive team several times ?
the more i think about duncan , the more i like him.
i like my post players to be able to step outside of a 2 foot range and hit a bank shot like he can.
also , its nice to see a big man shoot a decent % from the foul line.
and yes , moses malone was overlooked by me in my initial post . he was awesome .
hasnt he made the all defensive team several times ?
the more i think about duncan , the more i like him.
i like my post players to be able to step outside of a 2 foot range and hit a bank shot like he can.
also , its nice to see a big man shoot a decent % from the foul line.
and yes , moses malone was overlooked by me in my initial post . he was awesome .
Both , including triple overtime. You obviously have shown your age with your post and have an obvious bias for Wilt Chamberlin. It's normal and expected. BTW , I really enjoyed your writing , you have a very good knowledge of the game and it's respected and noted. You summed everbody who deserves to be on the list very well, except for blatant bias and ass kissing for Mr. 20,000 ( which I believe to be his greatest record of all time ) However what are your beliefs based on as to why he would thrive in todays game ? Because Larry the Loser Brown said so ... I did a google search on that story , you know what I came up with ?? Nothing .. cause its probably just an urban legend that has been told and retold and this is what it's evolved to. A 45 year old Wilt dominating a 20 year Magic Johnson .. LMFAO ... Why didn't he sign him to ? If he was so good, he could have been his agent. Oh do I sound rediculous now? Well that story is rediculous and anybody who believes it is a fool. And even if theres a smidgeon of truth actually to it, Do you honestly think Magic Johnson , mr Million dollar smile himself would attempt to injure himself or perhaps his career in a meaningless pickup game against and old man for sake of ego or showmanship ?? The man is on the verge of an NBA contract coming from a family of 8 in the Detroit ghetto , lets throw it all away trying to block a Chamberlin dunk ... I don't think so ...The fact is , Wilt Chamberlin preyed on the weak in a water down league, No way he could come remotely close to posting the numbers he did ( even in his prime ) in todays game. Accept it. I speak the truth.
I like how Timmy uses the glass...I may catch hell for this but he reminds me of me the way he uses the backboard....not enough players use this lost skill...the backboard is your friend...and as I always said 'it's in the bank'
The 12-15 ft bank shot on the wing is the easiest shot , yet no one does this besides Duncan.
The 12-15 ft bank shot on the wing is the easiest shot , yet no one does this besides Duncan.
I give Wilt his due based on two things:
1. Statistics
2. Many people (some very smart) talk in glowing terms
with that being said, I saw Wilt in a couple of ESPN Classic games and was not impressed. In the early 70's Jabbar was dominating him. Ok WIlt was near the end but still he was losing this battle to the young Jabbar clearly. And in another game in the late 60's it was an all star game and again, Wilt was not dominating. Of course his stats and many experts say otherwise. As far as today remember there are plenty of lousy big men so he would still dominate but I in no way think he dominates like he did way back. Out of respect I do not want to bash Wilt (nor do I feel he deserves it) but make these observations. Wilt is sort of like Jim Brown...the people that were there when they played swear they are by far the best.
1. Statistics
2. Many people (some very smart) talk in glowing terms
with that being said, I saw Wilt in a couple of ESPN Classic games and was not impressed. In the early 70's Jabbar was dominating him. Ok WIlt was near the end but still he was losing this battle to the young Jabbar clearly. And in another game in the late 60's it was an all star game and again, Wilt was not dominating. Of course his stats and many experts say otherwise. As far as today remember there are plenty of lousy big men so he would still dominate but I in no way think he dominates like he did way back. Out of respect I do not want to bash Wilt (nor do I feel he deserves it) but make these observations. Wilt is sort of like Jim Brown...the people that were there when they played swear they are by far the best.
I still rate Jim Brown in my top 3 running backs of all time...In my opinon Wilt was not always giving 100 per cent in every game...he was so dominating that he didn't have to unless he was up against Rusell from the Celts...Wilt was so overpowering that he actually hurt other guys trying to stop him....different times, but I actually think that players before 1990 played harder and smarter....
To answer this honestly, I'd have to consider two things.
1) With the soft defense and officials calling some many touch fouls, Wilt would be even more unstoppable.
2) With officials calling so many touch fouls, he would probably pick up two early fouls and have to sit the bench for the rest of the first half. Coaches were not so quick to sit their stars when they got into foul trouble back then. Wilt often played 44-48 minutes a game. Would not happen today so his stats would probably suffer. Game not played as fast as 60's either so that cuts down on opportunities.
All in all, I still beleive that if Wilt showed up in the NBA today in his prime, he would be the dominate player.
As far as the Wilt/magic story, I do not remember if I heard it first hand from Larry Brown or not. It certainly could a urban myth.
Apart from his superior physical abilities, Chamberlain also featured an offensive repertoire that relied on finesse rather than on power, including fadeaway jumpshots, bankshots or hook shots This made him virtually unguardable, as witnessed by his high field goal percentage of .540. Apart from being basketball's all-time top rebounder, Chamberlain was also known to be a great blocker. As blocks only became official stats after his career, there are no figures, however, in the early 1980s, at UCLA's practice courts, Chamberlain was playing in a pickup game, <!--EZCODE BOLD START-->including a young Magic Johnson. Johnson called goaltending on Chamberlain, who then said: "There will be no more lay-ups in this game." Chamberlain, who was in his mid-40s, went on to block every lay-up attempt in the game. This was recounted after Chamberlain's death by coach Larry Brown, who was then coaching UCLA.<!--EZCODE BOLD END-->
