and this proves what pertaining to this case again?
and this proves what pertaining to this case again?
The proof has probably already been expunged. See my post on what the CIA did prior to The Rockefeller Commission in 1975 with regard to Dr. Frank Olson's case. All the documents pertaining to Project Artichoke and MKUltra, were expunged before there hearings. So there was no evidence that could be brought against the CIA. The CIA is diligently shredding all the classified materials on this covert operation as we speak. Look for a big order of shredder oil being purchased by The CIA as we speak. That is because these documents are being disposed of, as quick as they can feed the paper shredder.
So Willie you, me, and the rest of America will never know "what" exactly was the CIA's motive for doing it, Why the CIA did it, or have any piece of physical evidence to link them to this. It is a sad week in America, but most will move on and let this happen again. Others will continue to fight these atrocities.
Maybe you can enlighten yourself with Operation Midnight Climax, where hookers were used to drug "Johns" (US Citizens) in mind control experiments. Then you can tell me the CIA could not kill US Citizens, harm US Citizens, and that Dr. Ivins is the guy.
I will repeat myself again, Dr. Ivins was murdered in order to be "the fall guy" and prevent the FBI from looking into this horrible crime any further.
nothing just saying complacency and faith in government tends to lead to cases such as this
give us a timeline
you have homicides and crimes all the time
they give us blow by blow accounts of this happened here this happened then
numerous witnesses and testimony
spill the beans tell us everything you know tell us why this is indeed the guy
we should demand this....its our taxpayer dollars at work and several people died, the american people were freaked out , patriot act was rushed through, and iraq was invaded partially due this particular event
what do they have to hide if this is indeed the guy....bring all the facts to the table....don't beat around the bush....
this isn't a national security threat this wasn't carried out by a international terrorist
give us a timeline
you have homicides and crimes all the time
they give us blow by blow accounts of this happened here this happened then
numerous witnesses and testimony
spill the beans tell us everything you know tell us why this is indeed the guy
we should demand this....its our taxpayer dollars at work and several people died, the american people were freaked out , patriot act was rushed through, and iraq was invaded partially due this particular event
what do they have to hide if this is indeed the guy....bring all the facts to the table....don't beat around the bush....
this isn't a national security threat this wasn't carried out by a international terrorist
Tiz,
Now you are showing the readers I am not paranoid.
This is all I am asking. Show me the concrete evidence (physical) evidence that links this guy to not just one of these letters, BUT ALL. They can't even show me one!
I am arguing as an American and a tax payer, I want to have my taxes accounted for and I want to see all the evidence. If $5.8M was wasted on a settlement with the wrong guy, Then I DEMAND they show the evidence. Every case has evidence, you are innocent until proven guilty. The FBI doesn't believe Dr. Ivins is the guy, but they want to look like heroes of the day and they certainly do not want to fuck with the CIA.
Regardless of the motive for it, Americans were killed and I find it strikingly sad that Americans would be "all up in arms" when trade centers are attacked but when 6 people die in a VERY SUSPICIOUS case, they don't care and disregard overwhelmingly circumstancial evidence that The CIA murdered Dr. Bruce Ivins to cover up their botched covert mission.
Man, this debate has reached new lows.
An prosecutor in a murder trial tells the jury; "there have been murders throughout the history of mankind, and you know this to be true, thus the defendant is obviously guilty of murder".
I rest my case
An prosecutor in a murder trial tells the jury; "there have been murders throughout the history of mankind, and you know this to be true, thus the defendant is obviously guilty of murder".
I rest my case
Ding! Ding! Ding! Bingo!
Exactly. That is why this has gotten so out of hand. Because unlike 1960-1975 (Pre Rockefeller Commission), there is now "The Internet" and vast amounts of information can be shared at the speed of light. Cover-ups are much harder and people have become more intelligent.
If this was 40 years previous, this would have been a newspaper article that no one thought much of.
Great post Willie!
How Solid is the Anthrax Evidence?
Tuesday, Aug. 05, 2008 By AMANDA RIPLEY AND MASSIMO CALABRESI
While the FBI waits to formally release its evidence against Bruce E. Ivins, the microbiologist it claims to have linked to the anthrax mailings seven years ago who killed himself on July 29, the public is getting a sneak peek — by way of federal leaks to the media. The leaks are piling up almost too fast to keep track of. Some seem damning, others perplexing, but the pause is creating a strange void — in which leaks are followed by rebuttals from Ivins' colleagues and his attorney (who steadfastly denies his client had any role in the attacks) and then followed by more leaks. The result leaves neither Ivins nor the FBI looking good.
Most notably, unnamed federal officials are telling media outlets that the FBI used new DNA technology to link the anthrax that killed five people in 2001 to anthrax handled by Ivins in his federal lab. But scientists who knew Ivins — and some who didn't — tell TIME this is not a simple matter, technically speaking.
For one thing, a group of people have access to the anthrax at any given lab. "What you can do with all those forensic techniques is trace the anthrax to a lab, but you can't trace it to a person," says Meryl Nass, a Maine doctor who studies the anthrax vaccine and was a professional acquaintance of Ivins for over 15 years. What's more, Nass adds, the link is not accurate with 100% certainty. "You can't convict someone with that evidence."
Moreover, it is hard to understand why the match could not simply be explained by the lab's prominent involvement in the federal investigation, notes Randall Larsen, a retired Air Force colonel and a senior associate at the Center for Biosecurity, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.
The FBI itself sent the anthrax letters to Ivins and his colleagues at the biodefense lab for analysis "almost immediately" following the attacks in 2001, confirms Caree Vander-Linden, a spokesperson for the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, where Ivins worked. An FBI spokesperson referred TIME to the spokesperson for the FBI's Washington Field Office, who did not return a call requesting comment.
Part of the confusion comes from the fact that bioterrorism cases do not generally produce stellar forensic evidence. "The nature of biological weapons is such that it is very difficult to figure out where something came from," says Larsen, author of a 2008 book on homeland security entitled Our Own Worst Enemy. "The FBI does a marvelous job with guns and bombs, but anthrax is extremely difficult."
In the face of this challenge, Ivins' lawyer says, the FBI stalked his client in pursuit of evidence he didn't have, driving him to drink and to depression. Ivins took at least two polygraph tests, says attorney Paul Kemp, and apparently passed both of them. "That certainly was our impression," he says. "That's certainly what he was told."
Contrary to previous media reports, Kemp says his client had not been negotiating a plea agreement at the time of his death. And indeed, contrary to some suggestions in initial reports, the grand jury investigating the case was at least a few weeks from handing down any kind of indictment. Kemp and Ivins met with the FBI four or five times beginning last December, after the bureau informed Ivins that "he could be a suspect," Kemp says. Most recently Kemp says he met with agents the day Ivins committed suicide, not knowing he was already dead.
Ivins was "totally responsive to every single question and never refused to answer," Kemp says. Over the past seven years, before he was a suspect in the case, Ivins had been interviewed 20 to 25 times in the case. He had cooperated fully and had his security clearances renewed, Kemp says.
Given that the government already had to pay a multi-million dollar settlement for linking an innocent government scientist, Steven Hatfill, to the attacks, FBI officials are clearly worried about their reputation for bumbling the anthrax case and are eager to share what they know. But they are waiting to proceed publicly until a judge unseals the evidence in the Ivins case and all the victims and their families have been briefed on the details. More information may become public in the next couple of days. Amid all the leaks and whispers over this grim episode in a grim case, some hard information will be a welcome development.
Tuesday, Aug. 05, 2008 By AMANDA RIPLEY AND MASSIMO CALABRESI
While the FBI waits to formally release its evidence against Bruce E. Ivins, the microbiologist it claims to have linked to the anthrax mailings seven years ago who killed himself on July 29, the public is getting a sneak peek — by way of federal leaks to the media. The leaks are piling up almost too fast to keep track of. Some seem damning, others perplexing, but the pause is creating a strange void — in which leaks are followed by rebuttals from Ivins' colleagues and his attorney (who steadfastly denies his client had any role in the attacks) and then followed by more leaks. The result leaves neither Ivins nor the FBI looking good.
Most notably, unnamed federal officials are telling media outlets that the FBI used new DNA technology to link the anthrax that killed five people in 2001 to anthrax handled by Ivins in his federal lab. But scientists who knew Ivins — and some who didn't — tell TIME this is not a simple matter, technically speaking.
For one thing, a group of people have access to the anthrax at any given lab. "What you can do with all those forensic techniques is trace the anthrax to a lab, but you can't trace it to a person," says Meryl Nass, a Maine doctor who studies the anthrax vaccine and was a professional acquaintance of Ivins for over 15 years. What's more, Nass adds, the link is not accurate with 100% certainty. "You can't convict someone with that evidence."
Moreover, it is hard to understand why the match could not simply be explained by the lab's prominent involvement in the federal investigation, notes Randall Larsen, a retired Air Force colonel and a senior associate at the Center for Biosecurity, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.
The FBI itself sent the anthrax letters to Ivins and his colleagues at the biodefense lab for analysis "almost immediately" following the attacks in 2001, confirms Caree Vander-Linden, a spokesperson for the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, where Ivins worked. An FBI spokesperson referred TIME to the spokesperson for the FBI's Washington Field Office, who did not return a call requesting comment.
Part of the confusion comes from the fact that bioterrorism cases do not generally produce stellar forensic evidence. "The nature of biological weapons is such that it is very difficult to figure out where something came from," says Larsen, author of a 2008 book on homeland security entitled Our Own Worst Enemy. "The FBI does a marvelous job with guns and bombs, but anthrax is extremely difficult."
In the face of this challenge, Ivins' lawyer says, the FBI stalked his client in pursuit of evidence he didn't have, driving him to drink and to depression. Ivins took at least two polygraph tests, says attorney Paul Kemp, and apparently passed both of them. "That certainly was our impression," he says. "That's certainly what he was told."
Contrary to previous media reports, Kemp says his client had not been negotiating a plea agreement at the time of his death. And indeed, contrary to some suggestions in initial reports, the grand jury investigating the case was at least a few weeks from handing down any kind of indictment. Kemp and Ivins met with the FBI four or five times beginning last December, after the bureau informed Ivins that "he could be a suspect," Kemp says. Most recently Kemp says he met with agents the day Ivins committed suicide, not knowing he was already dead.
Ivins was "totally responsive to every single question and never refused to answer," Kemp says. Over the past seven years, before he was a suspect in the case, Ivins had been interviewed 20 to 25 times in the case. He had cooperated fully and had his security clearances renewed, Kemp says.
Given that the government already had to pay a multi-million dollar settlement for linking an innocent government scientist, Steven Hatfill, to the attacks, FBI officials are clearly worried about their reputation for bumbling the anthrax case and are eager to share what they know. But they are waiting to proceed publicly until a judge unseals the evidence in the Ivins case and all the victims and their families have been briefed on the details. More information may become public in the next couple of days. Amid all the leaks and whispers over this grim episode in a grim case, some hard information will be a welcome development.
Great, so the FBI has been investigating him for some time then, why didn't the CIA off him sooner? Mitigates one argument used pertaining to the timing of his death.
As for the quality of any evidence against him? who the fuck knows and why does it matter?
As for the quality of any evidence against him? who the fuck knows and why does it matter?
Good stuff Tiz. You are my pal in these forums. Saving my fingers from this keyboard.
The more reputible news agencies are starting to question this e.g Time and CNN. The Rupert Murdock ones are keeping the lid tight as possible. They can't for much longer as it will destroy their readership.
The only charge Dr. Bruce Ivins is guilty of, is not keeping his anthrax samples secure from "spook" scientists who work for The CIA. For that charge, he would probably be reprimanded, possibly have lost his security clearance. But certainly, he is not the anthrax mailer, The CIA. Nor did he commit suicide.
Murder has to be explained to the public, it calls attention to The CIA. Murder of a high profile figure is not good for a covert operation. It makes the operation "hot". You want to call the least amount of attention to your operation.
I have told you before in my posts. The reason he was MURDERED when he was murdered and not before is because the dummies in the FBI got too close to the case. Fortunately, it brought attention to the case for the public to see what is going on. If the FBI would have never tried to move in on him, he would still be alive and the FBI would still be chasing their tail.
The FBI doesn't think like the CIA. They see that the samples of anthrax came from Dr. Bruce Ivins and they automatically think "they have their guy". Dr. Bruce Ivins was a "tip" to The FBI from the CIA anyways, it was to take attention off Dr. Phillip Zack. Once the CIA murdered Dr. Bruce Ivins, the case was "supposed" to be closed, but then the internet starting leaking this "Dr. Phillip Zack" guy and fell suspicious that Dr. Bruce Ivins could even do this horrendous crime.
Dr. Phillip Zack is probably not his name. If it is, he will probably turn up missing as well. Dead men don't testify. Even John Gotti knew that.
they settled with the other dude for 5.8 million in june at that point now ivin's was the go to guy
they supposedly were eyeing ivin's while they were still trying to pin down the other guy
they just didn't go after him till the other guy got off the hook
plus honestly i'm not even saying he didn't off himself....maybe a doctor painfully od'd on tylenol #3 after he saw he was done for when this duley character is working with the feds and is the only person so far that has come out and made him look like a monster who knows....that isn't the point...the point is this doesn't look like the guy
was there an autopsy? what evidence of a tylenol #3 od other than that's what they told us?
if they killed him i'd like to know that too....but the main point of it all is who the fuck mailed these anthrax letters!!???
don't you want to know willie?? with clear evidence not weak connections and circumstantial evidence......
the guy went to university of cincinnatti and say he had some thing for some particular sorority so that's why he's in princeton, nj a few blocks for a sorority's storage facility....they don't have sorority houses at princeton....and why princeton why not any other university that has this sorority he supposedly has a thing for (and where they got that who knows) that's their reasoning for him being in princeton
that's their "evidence" of him being there that day to mail the anthrax from that location
its just ridiculous
that's their "evidence" of him being there that day to mail the anthrax from that location
its just ridiculous
another good post Tiz.
That is what I am saying, Americans have swallowed this news as if it is true. Dr. Bruce Ivins did not mail these out. Only The CIA could have done it. They (The CIA) were the ones that new to put Bentonite in one of the letters to make it look like this was the job of Iraq. The FBI has know intelligence materials on stuff like this, so they wouldn't do it and neither does Dr. Bruce Ivins.
In late October, 2001, ABC chief investigative correspondent Brian Ross several times linked the anthrax sample to Saddam Hussein; on October 26, "sources tell ABCNEWS the anthrax in the tainted letter sent to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle was laced with bentonite. The potent additive is known to have been used by only one country in producing biochemical weapons — Iraq.... it is a trademark of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program...The discovery of bentonite came in an urgent series of tests conducted at Fort Detrick, Maryland, and elsewhere," <sup id="cite_ref-15" class="reference">[16]</sup> on October 28, stating that "despite continued White House denials, four well-placed and separate sources have told ABC News that initial tests on the anthrax by the US Army at Fort Detrick, Maryland, have detected trace amounts of the chemical additives bentonite and silica." <sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference">[17]</sup>, and several times on October 28 and 29.<sup id="cite_ref-17" class="reference">[18]</sup>
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_letters
They have the wrong guy pinned for the anthrax letters, it was the CIA. Just like Scooter Libby, some names were dropped to the FBI to go in another direction and "get lost".
I still say Dr. Bruce Ivins was murdered by the CIA, I posted facts from Wikipedia on suicide to back up my theories in Post# 147. I also posted FACTS, that another scientist at Ft. Detrick in the past (Dr. Frank Olson) was found to have been murdered, when initial reports indicated suicide.
I mean look how funny this is... Foxnews has a teeny tiny link on their page about how "The FBI is going to meet with anthrax victim families". Whereas Time, is reporting that Americans are starting to question the case. The reporting by Rupert Murdock's agencies is clearly trying to keep the lid tight on this.
This is why I tell everyone, read this thread from post #1 and all the arguments can be explained. Every one of them.
This is why I tell everyone, read this thread from post #1 and all the arguments can be explained. Every one of them.
Circumstantial evidence? Yes. Physical evidence, no. The CIA will play mind games with us by reporting a bunch of bullshit stories to eventually tire us out and forget about this once the Summer Olympic Games come on TV.
We will not get anything heavy from major news sources. This story has to be broken by the internet community via forwarding of links to this thread and others, blogging, web pages arguing the facts of the case and historical similarities. Our news outlets don't want to touch this. You don't want to fuck with The CIA or The Government for that matter.
Everyone should be talking about this at work, telling their families. 300 Million people are much stronger than a few crooks in The CIA and The Government. If the word can get out to a big enough populous, we MAY find some of the truth out. The longer we wait, the more documents that get shredded by The CIA.
Duley will probably crack. And I don't think The CIA will murder her, it will bring too much heat. I think the pressure of the case and her being exposed as a fraud will have her ending up committing suicide. She has no backbone. Her past drug use shows that, she resorted to drugs for escape. Dr. Bruce Ivins didn't use drugs, though the media release some HILARIOUS story about him being an alcoholic which I found funny because you have to report that on your security clearance paperwork, Standard Form 86.
Tiz, we really need to get this story out. The longer people wait, the more documents on this operation and the participants will be shredded by The CIA. The media will continue releasing bullshit, their sources are in The Government so it is not too reliable. What need to be done is an IMMEDIATE commission on this case. This is a National Security incident and should be taken very seriously.
here's a rehash of all those "leaks" aka testing the waters to see how we all respond
mailbox he used to obtain pornography of blindfolded women!!!???? LMFAO
-------------------
Anthrax probe: FBI has e-mails from suspect; records show he borrowed freeze-dryer
Buzz up!
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz
This is our daily update on the investigation into Bruce Ivins, the government scientist who committed suicide last week after being identified as a suspect in the 2001 anthrax attacks that killed five people and injured 17 others:
• The FBI says it has e-mails that implicate Ivins, according to The Wall Street Journal. "They didn't provide details," the paper says.
• The New York Times reports that one of the envelopes used in the anthrax attacks was purchased at a post office where Ivins "had for years maintained a post office box under an assumed name that he used to obtain pornographic pictures of blindfolded women."
• The Associated Press says Ivins had a "decades-long obsession with the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority," but it's not really clear what that has to do with the allegations, other than the fact that there's a sorority chapter near the location where the anthrax-laced letters entered the mail system.
• The Washington Post reports that Ivins borrowed "freeze-drying equipment that allows scientists to quickly convert wet germ cultures into dry spores" around the time of the attacks. But an unidentified former colleague tells the paper Ivins "did at least one project for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that would have given him reason to use the drying equipment."
• Federal officials are expected to meet with the victims or their survivors this week in Washington, according to the Frederick News-Post and The (Baltimore) Sun. David Hose, a postal worker who contracted anthrax, says he doesn't believe that Ivins did it -- or that the FBI will be able to solve the case. "They just mumble and bumble around," he tells The Sun. "It's like a TV show."
mailbox he used to obtain pornography of blindfolded women!!!???? LMFAO
-------------------
Anthrax probe: FBI has e-mails from suspect; records show he borrowed freeze-dryer
Buzz up!
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz
This is our daily update on the investigation into Bruce Ivins, the government scientist who committed suicide last week after being identified as a suspect in the 2001 anthrax attacks that killed five people and injured 17 others:
• The FBI says it has e-mails that implicate Ivins, according to The Wall Street Journal. "They didn't provide details," the paper says.
• The New York Times reports that one of the envelopes used in the anthrax attacks was purchased at a post office where Ivins "had for years maintained a post office box under an assumed name that he used to obtain pornographic pictures of blindfolded women."
• The Associated Press says Ivins had a "decades-long obsession with the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority," but it's not really clear what that has to do with the allegations, other than the fact that there's a sorority chapter near the location where the anthrax-laced letters entered the mail system.
• The Washington Post reports that Ivins borrowed "freeze-drying equipment that allows scientists to quickly convert wet germ cultures into dry spores" around the time of the attacks. But an unidentified former colleague tells the paper Ivins "did at least one project for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that would have given him reason to use the drying equipment."
• Federal officials are expected to meet with the victims or their survivors this week in Washington, according to the Frederick News-Post and The (Baltimore) Sun. David Hose, a postal worker who contracted anthrax, says he doesn't believe that Ivins did it -- or that the FBI will be able to solve the case. "They just mumble and bumble around," he tells The Sun. "It's like a TV show."
