Dr. Bruce Ivins, anthrax scientist was murdered by The CIA

[MichaelScott]

I imagine this may be hard for many to believe, but don't let me convince you. Those who disagree, I welcome a debate.

Dr. Bruce Ivins supposedly had his autopsy done last Monday. The conclusion was an overdose of Tylenol and Codeine. The process take up to 48 hours to have toxic levels and as QuantumLeap stated is VERY painful. As a Doctor, why would you choose to kill yourself this way.

A few unanswered questions maybe those who oppose my conclusion can answer.

• Who is this therapist that got the restraining order on Dr. Bruce Ivins?
• Why would he use Tylenol and Codeine and not overdose on a boat load of heroin or something else? After all he was a scientist, he knows many other ways that are virtually painless to kill himself.
• How did he do this by himself?
• How did he do this without infecting himself?
• Where are the handwriting samples that compare his with the letters. Granted they were disguised, but some habits in writing you can't avoid.
• How did he know "just at the write time" when to kill himself nefore the FBI was going to move in?
• Why did the letters start being sent exactly 1 week after 9/11?
• Why is it Dr. Frank Olson, another Ft. Deatrick scientist dies mysteriously only 40 years previously?
• Why no suicide note? Didn't he have two children and a wife of 33 years?
• Why do his coworkers paint a different picture of him?
• Why was the restraining order by the "therapist" not typed by a secretary for a law firm? Who the fuck files court papers without a lawyer?
• How could he do this by himself?
• The CIA admits to having anthrax.
• Why is the case all of a sudden closed?
• Why no congressional oversight committed?

Clearly Dr. Bruce Ivins was murdered by The CIA. If he was the culprit and he supposedly wanted to kill all his coworkers, I am sure as a doctor he could have done it.

Plains and simple the guy was assasinated by The CIA.

 

[koidog]

Gotcha, the CIA had him killed and were so sloppy with it a Poster on an Internet Gambling site was able to crack the case.

Makes sense.

 

[MichaelScott]

Gotcha, the CIA had him killed and were so sloppy with it a Poster on an Internet Gambling site was able to crack the case.

Makes sense.

Doc Mercer#2,

Argue the facts, don't hijack threads. If you have no valid answer to any of the questions I posted, please don't ruin the thread for others that may provide those counter arguments.

Thank you.

 

[koidog]

Not sure how I ruined the thread by pointing out the whole premise is absurd.

Argue what "facts"?

 

[MichaelScott]

Not sure how I ruined the thread by pointing out the whole premise is absurd.

Argue what "facts"?

You made comment of character and got off the topic. I am asking those those who disagree, to prove to me he committed suicide. Some sort of factual evidence. Rather than shotgun someone's thread the death, maybe you can show us how intelligent you are with some good reliable and well researched content on why I am wrong, without stating the obvious about this is a "gambling forum". Just an FYI, The forum is broken down into categories in case you were unaware, I posted in "The Politics" category. So I am on topic, you were not. This thread had nothing to do with gambling, that part of the forum is located outside of this category... unless it has to do with politics.

Back on topic, please only serious counter arguments. Please cite sources as well.

Tylenol and Codeine for suicide take up to 48 hours for toxicity to kill a human.

I find it hard to believe he dies on what, last Monday, so he spent the previous 48 hours (The Weekend, Saturday and Sunday) with his family at the house holding his stomach in pain? Or where was his family during those previous 48 hours while the Tylenol and Codeine were working their magic?

And I find it striking odd the similarities of The Dr. Frank Olson Case with Dr. Bruce Ivin's supposed "suicide".

 

[JudgeWapner]

It does seem like an icredibly stupid way to off oneself.

 

[MichaelScott]

It does seem like an icredibly stupid way to off oneself.

You're absolutely correct Judge. Why on earth would a scientist try and kill himself with over the counter drugs that take so long to kill yourself? You see, the CIA messed up and fed the news agencies the story that he "committed suicide". That is where they went wrong. If they said, "accidental overdose" while he was taking cold medication the public would have never had looked into this. But because the amounts of codeine and Tylenol were of level that one ingests to commit suicide and they needed the autopsy reports to state that, they messed up their assassination. A scientist can figure out many other ways to kill himself. If I wanted pain and a quicker death, I would have drank Liquid Plummer. Cheaper and more effective. Here, a quick internet search on Google brings up a book on medical toxicology, you don't even have to be a government biologist to understand how to do it.


Just take the 15 minutes to read all the sources I am providing. Not one person arguing the "suicide" story can provide the sources to back the argument up. This is because The CIA "releases" information through "sources" to cover up covert actions domestically. Sort of like a "false flag" operation but in The United States.

 

[koidog]

The title of your thread says he was killed by the CIA. I find most of your questions to be nonsense. I mean somebody killed himself...how would it ever be possible to "prove" that? I'm not even sure what a note would prove...you could just as well say the note was forged.

The difference is this is a very high profile case, I see nothing unusual at all. His Brother says he was a nut. Friends and Colleagues according to Reports called him "unstable". His Own Lawyer doesn't question the suicide at all...but does blame the govt for putting pressure on him.

And Why is it a mystery that someone had a restraining order against him?

Really my question is did the guy do it? Will the case be closed?

To leap that the CIA did it seems like you are just another conspiracy nut.

 

[Railbird]

Gotcha, the CIA had him killed and were so sloppy with it a Poster on an Internet Gambling site was able to crack the case.

Makes sense.

No the fbi and cia flunkys make sense. fbi guys are rejects 90% of the time. same people that captured Richard Jewell, same cia that is on the Bin Laden case. The United States of Retards.

 

[koidog]

It does seem like an icredibly stupid way to off oneself.

There are plenty of stupidier ways. Plus someone that kills themselves is pretty friggen unstable to begin with.

 

[MichaelScott]

I find most of your questions to be nonsense. I mean somebody killed himself...how would it ever be possible to "prove" that? I'm not even sure what a note would prove...you could just as well say the note was forged.

Then how were you so quick to disprove my theory? If you can't prove yours, or disprove mine, how are you right and I am considered "nonsense"? That is the point I am trying to make. You had all the answers before you even read what I had to say, or my sources for that matter. That is what the media and government want you to do, be a good ol complacent citizen. Don't question anything.

The difference is this is a very high profile case, I see nothing unusual at all. His Brother says he was a nut. Friends and Colleagues according to Reports called him "unstable". His Own Lawyer doesn't question the suicide at all...but does blame the govt for putting pressure on him.

Wasn't his brother drunk on TV? I never saw the video, maybe someone can post it. But that is what I heard. A very reliable source indeed. Drunk versus Doctor. I like that.

And Why is it a mystery that someone had a restraining order against him?

She was his therapist. You see, you must believe everything you watch on TV. Rumor has it, and I will provide a source if I correct, that she hand wrote the restraining order and court docs. The original ones. Who does that.

Regardless, the CIA employs many people on their payrolls. Cops, crooks, embassies, corrupt politicians, they even move money through proxy corporations to get it in the countries they need or keep it from being traceable.

This "therapist" I believe, was on The CIA's payroll. I cannot prove that, so we must not consider that fact in this debate.

Really my question is did the guy do it? Will the case be closed?

That is my question. Why is the case closed? Because dead men don't speak. The quicker this fades under radar, the better. No congressional hearing, case closed. The US public see no evidence and wall street goes back to trading the next day as nothing happened.

Even death row inmates, who were killed unjustly when states found out they later didn't commit the crimes after their death, are afforded justice. The burden of proof is with the government. Anyone can come up with a "he said, she said" argument, but in court that does not hold up.

To leap that the CIA did it seems like you are just another conspiracy nut.

I may be a nut in your eyes, but a nut who has a reliable argument and SOURCES. Historical evidence to prove this is possible.

I am by no means a "nut" and I have not called you that either, nor will I. All I am saying is, if this guy did "commit suicide" then simply release all the evidence so the man and his family can rest in peace. I think he should be afforded that justice, due process of the law.


I don't want to get off the subject, but The DC Madam was a suicide too, right? (sarcastically)

 

[MichaelScott]

No the fbi and cia flunkys make sense. fbi guys are rejects 90% of the time. same people that captured Richard Jewell, same cia that is on the Bin Laden case. The United States of Retards.

The FBI had no need to kill him. A Top Secret clearance and National Secrets mean nothing to them. They are just concerned with domestic affairs only, not state secrets. State Secrets have no boundaries.

In fact, The current CIA Director Michael Hayden, wa the NSA director previously to his CIA post. So lucky CIA, they had contacts in The NSA to wiretap and use signal intelligence to hear "when" the FBI was going to arrest him, so the CIA could move in first. That way it looks like the guy commited suicide to avoid prosecution, not like he was assasinated by The CIA. Cause after all, the CIA doesn't kill people, right?

Oh wait, and wasn't George HW Bush the director of The CIA as well? So he had contacts inside as well.

The writing is on the wall folks.

 

[MichaelScott]

There are plenty of stupidier ways. Plus someone that kills themselves is pretty friggen unstable to begin with.

A father of two. A wife of 33 years. A successful career. When people left his department, he wrote songs and poems for them as a going away present. A volunteer at the Red Cross.

How is the guy unstable? I could understand if he shot up 2 grams of Heroin a day for you to say that. He was a model citizen. Only ONE person, his "therapist" can say he was unstable. I don't know about you, but I have more than one person that hates me. And why won't she testify, under oath and state what she "heard him say"

The reason the guy goes to a therapist, is because he was being blamed for the anthrax letters. Bottom line is that blame came in the form of a "tip" from a CIA agent to The FBI. No proof I have for that, but why else would the FBI wait 4 years after Steven Hatfill to arrest Dr. Bruce Ivin's and still give him access to classified information and deadly biological weapon samples? If he was such a bad guy and they had a slam dunk case, why would he still be able to access the very "bad stuff" he was being accused of for sending out?

 

[koidog]

It's tiring, no one can disprove your theory...ever. You can believe what you want.

I'll tell you what prove to me that Hitler killed himself.

Vince Foster? Jack London? Margeau Hemingway?

If I just use your logic no one has ever committed suicide.

Funny how you answer me about his brother, but ignore that Colleagues and friends say he's a nut AND that his Lawyer blames the Govt for having forced him to suicide.

 

[MichaelScott]

It's tiring, no one can disprove your theory...ever. You can believe what you want.

Exactly. So then why is the case closed? Koi, I like your passion in the debate. But you, like everyone else can't disprove my theory. And this theory of mine is not mine, this is a lot of other people's convictions as well. The whole argument in this case is that, who are you to tell me that the media is right if there has been no concrete evidence presented to the public. So my argument is this...

I am not a "nut case" after all. I am just a man with a differing opinion and a lot more sources to back up those opinions with facts.

I'll tell you what prove to me that Hitler killed himself.

I think there is historical facts that argue both sides to that story if I am not mistaken. I am a well traveled man, seen the former site of hitler's bunker many times. Many say it was bombed out, but in those days people always carried a cyanide capsule to avoid being captured POW.

But this argument is of the topic. I am talking about Dr. Bruce Ivin's and how he was killed by The CIA, not Hiteler. Another thread can be started for Hitler

Vince Foster? Jack London? Margeau Hemingway?

Once again, off topic. Don't know Vince Foster, but Hemmingway way a great writer.

If I just use your logic no one has ever committed suicide.

Once again, you twist my words and go off topic. I said "The CIA killed Dr. Bruce Ivans". I never said "no one ever commits suicide". I am not naive, nor dumb so please don't insult my intelligence or the little that I have.

Funny how you answer me about his brother, but ignore that Colleagues and friends say he's a nut AND that his Lawyer blames the Govt for having forced him to suicide.

If you were a lawyer, making $100-200K a year and your client was just axed by The CIA. Would you mention anything about The CIA? I mean, how is your dead client supposed to pay you? It is a lose-lose situation for the lawyer. Go with the suicide story, take your pay, and take on another case.

Koi,
Please... stick to only arguing evidence o facts about Dr. Bruce Ivins death. The other distractions will bring this thread off track and I am really enjoying this discourse.

 

[quantumleap]

No the fbi and cia flunkys make sense. fbi guys are rejects 90% of the time. same people that captured Richard Jewell, same cia that is on the Bin Laden case. The United States of Retards.

These are the same people that accused Ivins' colleague Steven Hatfill who was cleared last month and was paid $5.8 million.

Here's an article that states that Ivins' colleagues are divided over his suicide:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0804/1217628485411.html

But others, including former colleagues and scientists with backgrounds in biological weapons defence, disagreed that Ivins could have created the anthrax powder even if motivated to do so.

"USAMRIID doesn't deal with powdered anthrax," said Richard Spertzel, who worked with Ivins at the Army lab. "I don't think there's anyone there who would have the foggiest idea how to do it. You would need to have the opportunity, the capability and the motivation, and he didn't possess any of those."

Authorities cast doubt on Saturday on reports that Ivins had acted for financial gain based on patents and scientific advances he had made. They say the government restricts income from inventions produced in its laboratories to no more than $150,000 per year, but the amount is often considerably less.

 

[MichaelScott]

These are the same people that accused Ivins' colleague Steven Hatfill who was cleared last month and was paid $5.8 million.

Here's an article that states that Ivins' colleagues are divided over his suicide:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0804/1217628485411.html

But others, including former colleagues and scientists with backgrounds in biological weapons defence, disagreed that Ivins could have created the anthrax powder even if motivated to do so.

"USAMRIID doesn't deal with powdered anthrax," said Richard Spertzel, who worked with Ivins at the Army lab. "I don't think there's anyone there who would have the foggiest idea how to do it. You would need to have the opportunity, the capability and the motivation, and he didn't possess any of those."

Authorities cast doubt on Saturday on reports that Ivins had acted for financial gain based on patents and scientific advances he had made. They say the government restricts income from inventions produced in its laboratories to no more than $150,000 per year, but the amount is often considerably less.

Goldmine QL! Thanks. Another source for my argument. Zero sources for those opposing it. And they call us "nut cases" because we question the television set and do our own thinking.

His colleagues were even quoted at Washington Post, stating he was a stand up guy. This isn't Ted Kaczinsky (The Unabomber) who was a loner and had a vendetta. Ted Kaczinky clearly did it, was tried and proven guilty in court. Dr. Bruce Ivins was never charged or proven guilty even after his death. This guy had no reason to kill people and do what he was accused of (Noticed how I said "accused" since he was never formally charged, nor convicted). The CIA did have a motive to mail out anthrax letters and a means. I posted in my first post of this thread an article from cnn.com, that The CIA admitting they had powdered forms of anthrax. And how interesting that these letters were mailed to politicians only a week after 9-11, which ultimately secured the vote to give President Bush power to bomb Afghanistan.

Remember folks, this is the same CIA that gave Secretary of State Colon Powell the "slam dunk" evidence that Iraq had Yellow Cake Uranium.

The only reason Steven Hatfill was not killed was because unlike Dr. Bruce Ivins, Hatfield went immediately to the media. A "mysterious death" with the media involved would have looked suspicious to the public.

 

[eek.]

That entire anthrax case had been weird from the start.
:grandmais

 

[Willie99]

I wonder why they waited so long?

 

[MichaelScott]

That entire anthrax case had been weird from the start.
:grandmais

Very true Eek. That is what led me to question what I have been seeing in the media with regard to Dr. Bruce Ivins "committing suicide". I would have thought nothing of it, if they didn't try and demonize him and make him out to be a bad guy, when those who were closest to him e.g his neighbors, his colleagues, and his family state he was not a bad guy and in fact cared deeply about people. Then when I reread the Dr. Frank Olson case of The 1960's which are semi-declassified, I raised my eyebrows and almost crapped my pants.


Keep in mind at minimum he had to have had a really high government clearance Top Secret or above. So, he went through extensive background investigations where they interviewed people who knew him and possibly even people who disliked him, if there were any that disliked him. He also probably did what they call a "poly", short for polygraph where they ask him potentially personal questions while being polygraphed to see if he is a threat to national security.


Once the lid comes off on this story, the Karl Rove subpenoea will be ignored by the public, and other illegal activities this administration have done will be put on hold at best. But hopefully the lid does come off on this story and more people write their lawmakers to gets the facts and answers on this case, under oath and televised nationally. We deserve answers.

I digress, back to Dr. Bruce Ivins.