Sportsbook stories from the 90's. From degenrate to mature degenrate.

[Sugarbear]

The Book Managers in Las Vegas during the 80's were theives and that is the reason they have all been blackballed. When the Owners were finally allerted about how these book managers were stealing from them the entire business changed.

That is what your talking about, but you have twisted the story a little. Every book manager had himself a runner that he would feed really good numbers (odds) to and then they would bet the other side at another book. The book managers were scalping baseball and middling football and basketball. They couldn't stop because they were also greedy. They all lost their jobs (not just Scotty) and none of them will ever work in Las Vegas again.

Tell the true story. This is also the reason the Las Vegas sports books didn't want any of these runners in their books. They had to protect their book from the Books Manager because they could steal from the Casino with ease. That's what Scotty and Jack and so on taught the Casinos Operators.

And I do know what I'm talking because I was involved in the "outing of the stealing Las Vegas sports book managers"

Sugarbear. You didn't know this?

You really think Scotty got fired for anything else? The Stardust did him a favor and didn't have him arrested and charged, but you know he will never work in Las Vegas again and it's because of his greed.

You are mashing several historical threads together. While there is some truth in what you say, there are a lot of other truths, from different sides that go with it.


Mine is an attempt at balance and simplicity. While there is duplicity on the VOG's part, the demise was not a demise, nothing really changed, and no one really went anywhere.


Gene Mayday did what he always did, right to the very end. He just wrote it down on paper like the rest whom did not lose there jobs. Not all did. Not even close. More than a few of them post here.


There are plenty of VOG's in the background of the strip and a great number of the ones they mentored are running things all over everywhere.



This thread is meant as a general overview of how things were, and still are now. It is not inteneded to give a slant to one side, or slander anyone. Its a historical overview, with real time lessons in it.

Most of what I have written, is all the vast majority are ever going to want to know or are ever going to need to know.


Except for a brief 6-8 week period coming up, all they are ever to likely read or know about concerning these time periods, is in this thread.


Sad, but true.

 

[Sugarbear]

I have a question... and Im very naive when it comes to this whole Vegas/ Wise Guy / runner stuff so this is no personal shot or whatever

But with the experience and everything youve seen... you should be an elite capper right? Maybe you are and I just dont know it... I dont follow many guys here at the rx... but if you are a good capper, is it from your experience working in Vegas... if you are not a good capper, why is that then?

thanks for sharing

I am not a capper. I need seperation at this point in my life. In reality, there would be no need to do so anyway, because I have classic OTC syndrome. OTC stands for Other Side of the Counter.

OTC is the true posistion I write from, but it does not have a place in offshore fourms in the way you are asking when it comes to betting games.


OTC has no rhyme or reason and is just based on what is. Logic is out and you have to bet the ugly teams or simply put, what the house needs.


They are the hardest bets to make by far. You can not have an opinion, you just have to know how it is and trust it. If the money means something, its hard to pull the trigger. If it doen't, its a little easier, but
people dont bet ugly, they bet on a wish, or what looks sexy, or what will make them look like the man, therefore those types of games are out.




In the end, I win enough, to lose it back. Which most times means I lose first, then win it back and then some, but not always in the same week, month or year. Its what you do with the money in the middle of it all, that seprates the winners, from the losers.



Just ask any wise guy.




To answer your question in proper, I just dont want to put the time in. I am at a high proffesional level right now, and care about much bigger things than betting on games.


In the end, I dont want to sweat games and bets at the end of the night or all during the day. You need a break somewhere along the line.


Games will always be there and I can certainly at anytime use my expierence and grind out a few dollars. Just not right now.

 

[hellah10]

Thanks for replying

I understand what your saying though

 

[Sugarbear]

Believe it or not...I am just now really reading back.

I have to admit, this is a Great thread. I am just now reading back over some of the stories and I am cracking up.

I dont consider myself a writer, but I can see I am really painting the pictures for you. In reality, thats what OTC is. Insights from the Other Side of the Counter. It is my true writing position. Its twin is called, A View from the Bottom, and its where most of my 101 type pieces are witten from. It is a inside out view of things as they are, or are likely to be.


In both cases,tremendous insights are gained for those who follow along. I don't know it all by far, but I can convey much all the same.



What made me read back tonite were the comments by the recent posters.
I am mostly unconcious with this, but when people spend afternoons, as well as write heart felt thanks, thats something special. In reality a lot have said the same things, double so at the bash.




Just wait, its companion piece is about to be brought up to speed.


Its called, Could you live this life from the bottom up?




To End:

Patrick, your comments have meant the most to me, because I know you understand. Its hard to write at this level. Its even harder to see. It is a gift to be able to strike this chord. I feel that if people would just forgive you of your past, you could do much of the same thing. As you know, I see it all the time from you.


Feel free to jump in, if you want to add anything.

 

[scott]

Mr. Know it all
My first job in the LV sports betting scene was in 1968 for a big local. From that spot I was asked into the regulated side of the LV sportsbetting scene. Each job I had was better than the last, paid more and I was given a bigger br to watch. In each and every spot my employers got first count. Never did I steal .10. I was investigated by the countrys best. The FBI watched me, The Presidents Commission on Organised Crime watched me, I was investigated by Federal Grand Juries, The Nevada Gaming Commission and the Gaming Control Board. The Stardust thouroughly investigated me. Not once was any thievery EVER even suggested. To this day I am still close to ALL my former employers. I have used them for references. AND I'M STILL CLOSE AND TRUSTED BY THE BADDEST GUYS EVER IN THIS TOWN. I was and still am trusted by both sides of the counter and both sides of the law. I have been offered big jobs in the Islands and those guys aren't dummies.

And by the way I wasn't fired from the Stardust. By mutual agreement I resigned. They wanted to change the image of the R&S book from a wiseguy joint to a more tame, corporate atmosphere (although they were happy live off the name "Stardust Sportsbook" created by wiseguys).

ScottyS

 

[bellyputter]

Scotty, did you ever know Dale (Bear) Hines? Good Luck

 

[scott]

bellyputter, I sure did. The name is very familiar but I can't connect it with a face. Clue?

 

[scott]

know it all, if I'm guilty of anything it's being naive and too trusting with my employees which in the end ain't such a bad thing.

 

[bellyputter]

Scotty, he was a tall gray haired gentleman, who booked in Vegas from 1975 to the mid 80's. Very low key, but was as sharp and honorable as anyone I've ever met! Good Luck

 

[Sugarbear]

I am doing a historical teaching points post on that very post tonite by Mr know It All. Scott.


Contrary to popular belief, nothing that went on in Vegas during those years was ILLEGAL.


As always the Goverment did not approve of what was going on, and thus made it seem like it was. Not that they had a clue. Historical eveidence is clear on this. They sat around for 14 years and watched everything they did.


If anyhting was illegal, it cerainly was not on the sportsbook side, everybody.
Questioanble as to exactly what laws were in place casino side also.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Mr. Know it all
My first job in the LV sports betting scene was in 1968 for a big local. From that spot I was asked into the regulated side of the LV sportsbetting scene. Each job I had was better than the last, paid more and I was given a bigger br to watch. In each and every spot my employers got first count. Never did I steal .10. I was investigated by the countrys best. The FBI watched me, The Presidents Commission on Organised Crime watched me, I was investigated by Federal Grand Juries, The Nevada Gaming Commission and the Gaming Control Board. The Stardust thouroughly investigated me. Not once was any thievery EVER even suggested. To this day I am still close to ALL my former employers. I have used them for references. AND I'M STILL CLOSE AND TRUSTED BY THE BADDEST GUYS EVER IN THIS TOWN. I was and still am trusted by both sides of the counter and both sides of the law. I have been offered big jobs in the Islands and those guys aren't dummies.

And by the way I wasn't fired from the Stardust. By mutual agreement I resigned. They wanted to change the image of the R&S book from a wiseguy joint to a more tame, corporate atmosphere (although they were happy live off the name "Stardust Sportsbook" created by wiseguys).

ScottyS

That's why people resign. So later in life they can tell people they did nothing wrong. Is that why you worked as a sport book writer at the Sahara. Because of all these people you know that's the best job they could get you.

Blow your hot air for the clueless to read and some will believe you. I could careless because I still can bet my big bets in Las Vegas because I don't go around betting steam. That's what Las Vegas sports books don't want anymore because they have no book managers who can handle it.

The Stardust could have been run by a monkey 25 years ago and that is still true today. But monkeys wouldn't steal and that is the problem. The Las Vegas sports book managers stole a ton of money and none of them will ever work Las Vegas again.

You know this and I know this. That's all that matters to me! You guys don't scalp your own books and nothing changes.

The only reason these guys didn't arrest these stealing book managers was they didn't understand how you guys were stealing through betting. All you guys got lucky.

And I don't want to single you out, but I don't want people to think that the change in sports betting was anything more than a bunch of sports book managers who got greedy and stole from the Casinos. They couldn't trust the people they hired from taking bets from these groups that help in the stealing.

When you move a number (odds) and you do it when your bettor is standing in line so that nobody else can get the number except him. That's stealing and that's what happened at the Stardust during your watch. You might not have done it yourself, but you knew it was happening.

When a sports book gives a bettor 10 tickets in baseball worth 5 dimes that are 15 to 20 cents off what everybody else is using at the time. That's stealing!

When a sports book manager gives his select big bettor a different half-time line than what others are getting that is called stealing. Not off-shore because they do what they want and rip off their bettors everyday, but in Las Vegas it is illegal to give different lines to different bettors.

You know this.

 

[Sugarbear]

Not so fast MR....

That's why people resign. So later in life they can tell people they did nothing wrong. Is that why you worked as a sport book writer at the Sahara. Because of all these people you know that's the best job they could get you.

Blow your hot air for the clueless to read and some will believe you. I could careless because I still can bet my big bets in Las Vegas because I don't go around betting steam. That's what Las Vegas sports books don't want anymore because they have no book managers who can handle it.

The Stardust could have been run by a monkey 25 years ago and that is still true today. But monkeys wouldn't steal and that is the problem. The Las Vegas sports book managers stole a ton of money and none of them will ever work Las Vegas again.

You know this and I know this. That's all that matters to me! You guys don't scalp your own books and nothing changes.

The only reason these guys didn't arrest these stealing book managers was they didn't understand how you guys were stealing through betting. All you guys got lucky.

And I don't want to single you out, but I don't want people to think that the change in sports betting was anything more than a bunch of sports book managers who got greedy and stole from the Casinos. They couldn't trust the people they hired from taking bets from these groups that help in the stealing.

When you move a number (odds) and you do it when your bettor is standing in line so that nobody else can get the number except him. That's stealing and that's what happened at the Stardust during your watch. You might not have done it yourself, but you knew it was happening.

When a sports book gives a bettor 10 tickets in baseball worth 5 dimes that are 15 to 20 cents off what everybody else is using at the time. That's stealing!

When a sports book manager gives his select big bettor a different half-time line than what others are getting that is called stealing. Not off-shore because they do what they want and rip off their bettors everyday, but in Las Vegas it is illegal to give different lines to different bettors.

You know this.

That is an utter an complete misrepesntation of the times and you know it MR Know It All.



You knew what the rules of the day were just like everyone else. A day that goes from the start of the 60's right to 91.



ITS STREET BOOKMAKING. SAME AS ITS EVER BEEN. Both sides of the counter made money. Nobody COMPLAINED FOR OVER 25 YEARS..If you were in, you were in, if not, there was still plenty enough to go around.


In addition when you say steal, you now whom you are really talking about dont you?


There were no laws against anything going on. Were there laws made as a result? Sure. But not at that time. There were no rules in the casino either. That all came later.

Its how things were. How buisness was done and understood to be done.
What people wish for everyday in there betting expierence. Credit shop has worked liked that from jump.


Learn to work it and there are no complaints, CHUCK.


YOU DARE TO CALL IT STEALING. DONT PLAY, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT.



The one law they did try to make got over turned by the supreme court in 74.
Hands down. Everybody walked whom did not cop a plea first.


Why? BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL.



They were not stealing. It was how it was.



To be continued.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Don't play if you don't like it?

What?

You just confirmed everything I was saying. The bets that were made could not be proven to be stealing, but everyone who knows the business knows they were stealing. The Gaming Control didn't even know what middlers and scalpers were until this all happened.

I just got off the phone with someone who says the Mirage bookmaker who got caught feeding his runner good juicy lines tried to get a job in Las Vegas and got laughed at. None of those people will ever work in Las Vegas again and it wasn't because of "How business was done."

Your agrument is not there. How can you say "I was how it was." It was stealing and I can bring you dozens of people who will tell you the same thing.

But you worked for them and it shows.

 

[Sugarbear]

It only had the air of illegality..It was not illegal...

Don't play if you don't like it?

What?

You just confirmed everything I was saying. The bets that were made could not be proven to be stealing, but everyone who knows the business knows they were stealing. The Gaming Control didn't even know what middlers and scalpers were until this all happened.

I just got off the phone with someone who says the Mirage bookmaker who got caught feeding his runner good juicy lines tried to get a job in Las Vegas and got laughed at. None of those people will ever work in Las Vegas again and it wasn't because of "How business was done."

Your agrument is not there. How can you say "I was how it was." It was stealing and I can bring you dozens of people who will tell you the same thing.

But you worked for them and it shows.

No, I am a modern day one and worked for Robert Walker, Joe Lupo, D Wayne Mauldin and Bob Scucci.




I am the next generation. The first of Roberts line to gain voice. Aka, a regulatory minded, responsible member of the gaming community.


Or all that was born of what you call "Stealing".



Yes, believe your eyes. A corprate minded one from inside the cooridors itself, defends the Vegas Old Guard.


However, do not get me wrong, I did not say they were not duplicit. They did more than enough over 14 years to warrant the attention. They still were not stealing. They owned the places.


It was the Feds who said they were. Only they had no law to do any thing with. So, stealing what? It took till mid 87 to get RICO put together the right way, and till 89 to uncork it.


From 55 to 85 no one had a problem. History is clear on this. Certainly 55 to 82. IF the guys way upstairs from the sportsbook had not been doing other things, we would not be here.


Stealing is not what brought down the Vegas Old Guard. NOT that they ever went anywhere mind you.


The Demise was not a Demise at ALL.


It just seems that way. In light of todays current events, some would say they are bigger than ever...Certainly, Scotty.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

The Robert Walker who had the sports book managers run across the street to get a bettor to give back a ticket because they say they got double hit on the game and they should have never taken the bet in the first place. He's a real winner there. A complete scumbag to be nice.

That happened to a couple people here in Las Vegas and is 100% true. they threaten bettors to give them back tickets where the line has moved and they decided not to take the bet AFTER they took the bet! Even 20 mintues later. If they don't give back the ticket they can't bet at their sports books anymore. Alot of people got that song and dance.

Robert Walker wouldn't know how to book sports if he learned from the best. He's completely lost so he throws out anyone who might beat them and his corporate bosses (who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit them on their a$$es) think he's great. He's great because even He's better than the theives they had before. That's pretty bad.

What Robert Walker doesn't know is what Scotty knows (I think) and that's that if you just take all the bets you will alot of money. That means ALL players! Take all the bets you can and you will make more money. It's that simple and very few people realize this.

Everyone can't figure out why Pinnicle makes money. It's easy, they take bets and alot of them from everyone. Same thing with the Greek and CRIS and the 2 biggest books Grande and Del Mar. These guys just took all the bets and as many of them as possible. Billy Walters was just another bettor to them. They all made mucho dinero!

All of them have tons of money and nobody can figure it out. They all take bets from everyone!

Robert Walker somehow convinced the corporate bosses that the best way to make money was to avoid bets. That is some sales job there.

But that's not the whole story. The story was that Las Vegas Casinos could no longer trust these scumbag sports book managers who stole from them.

Call it what you want , but it was stealing and I would bet my life that none of these people would do the same if they were working for an offshore book with the owners they have. They would end up in a lake.

You know this and so does everyone involved in the business at the time. Don't twist around why Las Vegas won't take bets from anyone who scares them because they might be talking on a phone before they make a bet or is holding a clip board.

Las Vegas sport bet limits are a frickin joke for anyone who bets every day and it is because of these theives.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

ITS STREET BOOKMAKING. SAME AS ITS EVER BEEN. Both sides of the counter made money. Nobody COMPLAINED FOR OVER 25 YEARS..If you were in, you were in, if not, there was still plenty enough to go around.


When you say that both sides of the counter made money it sounds fishy. What do you mean by that? It isn't the sports books responsability to make sure both sides of the counter made money. They shouldn't care if they are getting enough bets and end up winning most of the time. The sports book should always make money if they take bets.

And there was still plenty enough to go around doesn't make any sense to me at all. A sports books only goal is to make sure every bettor is happy and returns.

Robert Walker uppy:

 

[Sugarbear]

Chuck, for whatever reason you remain bitter against the establisment. I am surprised you are so hardcore against your own kind though.

Of course you have outcasted yourself everywhere you have gone, so its on you. I honestly dont know anyone who has anything against you. When you want to be, you are very sharp and observant. Why you choose to be so bitter for so long, is beyond us.

We have had this go around with you and you know what the truth is. Things just do not work your way and you WILL NEVER dictate the action, no matter how many names you call us, or how loud you yell.

 

[Sugarbear]

ITS STREET BOOKMAKING. SAME AS ITS EVER BEEN. Both sides of the counter made money. Nobody COMPLAINED FOR OVER 25 YEARS..If you were in, you were in, if not, there was still plenty enough to go around.


When you say that both sides of the counter made money it sounds fishy. What do you mean by that? It isn't the sports books responsability to make sure both sides of the counter made money. They shouldn't care if they are getting enough bets and end up winning most of the time. The sports book should always make money if they take bets.

And there was still plenty enough to go around doesn't make any sense to me at all. A sports books only goal is to make sure every bettor is happy and returns.

Again, you are misrepersenting history, and what I said. Modern day ones are not street bookies, nor were THE DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT NUMBERS JUST ACROSS THE STREET TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.



The reason both sides made money is because the concept of original numbers was still in play. You could lay - 5 one place on a game, then go across the street and take +3 on the same game/side.


Men were men and hung there numbers according to there methods and either you took the number or you didn't. It didn't matter what the other guy had. You know how it was, do not misrepersent history.



MY NUMBERS ARE THE RIGHT NUMBERS WAS THE ATTITUDE OF THE DAY. Its the only way places gained respect and action. ITS HOW IT WAS AND STILL IS, IN THE STREETS AND BEHIND THE SCENES OFFSHORE.



People who are willing to work at it, still make plenty of easy money. Including you.


Its not like you are broke or something. You have as much or as little as the next guy.


Why are you so angry?



All who worked at it made money. Even the bicycle guys like yourself were making real good coin. Out running the runners and everyone else. So what if you got cut out of a point or two. Or a nickel here and there.
The gap was more than wide enough to drive a truck through still.


Even after the computer group hit in the mid 70's did this hold.


The exact same thing happens on the Exchanges TODAY. NO DIFFERENT.

 

[Fishhead]

Many individuals became LV sportsbook managers in the 90's that had no right to be in the position they were in.

It was a fisasco of huge proportions at many establishments.

 

[Sugarbear]

Many individuals became LV sportsbook managers in the 90's that had no right to be in the position they were in.

It was a fisasco of huge proportions at many establishments.

I dont disagree with that, but there were not many around with clean enough records to take the jobs that were avaliable. Many of them are from the VOG line. Hotels had no choice. They got rid of the old guys and promoted the new ones. Many do very well by the society today.

We know the truth about a lot of heads of places, including out there.
Many sit in the background here in Vegas, with full control of a lot of things, as always.


One well respected head of a place out there started in Roxys kitchen with him. Another here in Vegas was a weatherman, another a plumber.


Most just needed a job and begged there way in. Everyone in the picture Kyhawk hung not long ago did. I believe one is very well known now in fact.