Sun Dodger said:
Books will be deternined by what the public wants. While I am the main chracter there are others that come along with me and in some form or another you will hear about them. As the stuff out of Vegas this fall starts coming out I will jump in where I can and add insight.
Remember there are many old guard Vegas as well as non Vegas people whom's storys are likely to come out in the media somewhere this fall that will add to it all.
It is my plan to bring you many of the daily participants type storys that are about real people whom are the ones that really make things go.
I have seen the future and what it will bring. A small sample of whats to come took place at the Stardust Friday with the ending of the Stardust line.
Not only did I have a long insiders converstation about things but there were many milling about who do the real work and have to make things work on the strip today there that go back a median 27 years. More than a few were a who's who's but more importantly the other who's they were talking about, where there at now and how funny it all is to them this many years later.
You should have heard parts of it. I started with so an such at...in...when I was a person just like any person out there who needed a job, any job to survive and pay my rent, is the tone they were saying it in and what the look in there eyes said.
Everyone has done so well for themselves. They have become important people whos opinion on things in our industry carry weight in the real world. The laughter in that certain way was unreal as all thought to themselves, if they only knew the truth.
Many of them started out at the bottom just like me with more than a few of them begging there way in or as it is known "they got hired the old fashioned way" .
How many of you would be willing to do that for your chance at the keys to the kingdom? Pride is the last thing to go. Could you really do it?
Before you answer this is what I mean by begging. It doesn't mean coming up everyday or even everyweek and asking to be hired.
What it really means its that you hang around on a regular basis but more importantly you do the right things by what you have and do not over time fall to the many dangerous temptations that present themselves in the society.
The person you want to hire you has to consider much as there are many thieves or more importantly those who show traits they may become one.
Its easy to see the good and the bad ones over time.
On the one hand the manager hires a person that stumbles in from the street knowing nothing but needing a job with no ambition of trying to move up or something. Whew no worries there. Keep the wolves in line who know better, keep an eye on them and your set.
Those who are trying to beg there way in are another story as they are looking to advance and know that over time there will be oppurtunitys to do so and make a nice career for themselves. So they are doing what it takes to survive, hang around and wait for the day the boss comes out and says "GO PUT IN YOUR APPLICATION." It is a truly beautiful moment.
Its like you graduated. Everyone is happy for you. You have moved up.
arty: :toast: 
Its really how you feel when you walk to personel with a big smile on your face.
In the meantime you have been watched the whole time and here is what a director thinks about when someone is begging for there chance at the keys to the kingdom. Keep in mind you know the persons story and so you work within that framework.
Does this person do right by what he has. Does he keep himself clean, is he polite to people when hes and winning and losing. Does he gamble within his means or is he a reckless degenrate who bets everything and never saves anything for tommorroww? Does he pay rent by the week or month?(If there single) Does he have or display to you in general converstations any other interest, plans or ideas about themselves or is this all there is to his life. Does he have other friends other than the degenrates around here? All this goes thru a directors mind and the answers to those questions determine who gets there chance and who doesn't. Most Older BM's were strict in this sense and tolerated little.
Bobby Davis and Dominic Dabacco aka the origianl Shoebox were 2 such old school types and another story all together.
Our very own Scotty Schettler hired many of them out there on the scene today. This includes my mentor D. Wayne Mauldin whom truly did beg his way in. Scotty relented after about 6 months when D. Wayne during the national anthem being played at NY that day stood up at full attention in his Air Force uniform for its entirity.
Would you be willing to do something like that in front of Scotty Schettler to prove to him or anyone that you have what it takes to be someone in this buisness, that you will do the hard work and the right things no questions asked? Would you really want it that bad?
cadillac man said:
As a matter yes I do have some. I will tell a small one here but most that may involve him are deeper looks at the life and in particular how me and my compatriarts worked the phones and one day came to be dubbed the
the Jr Wise Guy leauge by Lem because we were always trying to get insights on winners and asked him questions over the years about the way back old times and the like.
I am not sure exactly when he first said it to me but I was at the dust on the phone with him and still in my run the strip after work hang out all night in a book someplace mode. So insights on late winners, boxing and anything else I could get my hands on was always needed. Whom better to ask?
In any event Lem is very cordial and gives those there time who show that they really want to live the life and does care to get to know you as a person after a while. Even before I worked at the Dust he knew me and made me feel equal to him one day in June 94 when shortly after his heart attack. I was in Ceasers book with my friend when I walked upon him sitting in a chair and as I went to say hello he stood up, shook my hand and said hey Juice how you doing, who do you like today? Little ole me mind you.
He even set me up with a blind date once. Called me on the phone at the Dust and everything one day.
Anyhow Jr Wise Guys really refers to the way we worked our resources as well as the counter. There are five of us all together this encompasses
and we were very good in a clean acceptable 90's way of passing along information as well as using it to our advantage the old fashioned way.
Many of the wise and the like helped us tremendously in these Jr Wise Guy endevours.
stuckinvegas said:
Its not what we liked its what they wanted to believe what was going on that was key to working them. We catered to wise guys are phone minium
of 200 a game stoped square action cold.
You can not believe what people tip for you to tell what the wise are doing or who the hot play is because you know whos who but more importantly WHEN A MOVE IS A MOVE AND WHEN IT IS NOT.
The runners get dump out calls in advance a lot of times and would tell us or someone would call in at one of those times and we would ask do we want this and either they say yeah or no just fishing.
In any event its not about a winner or loser to them. Its about knowing somebody who does know people and letting them be a part of that by just catering to that fantasy for a few minutes and 'BE A PART OF THE MOMENT" so to speak. Thats all they want. They are betting everything under the sun anyway. The one or two INSIGHTS I give them to whats going on or what my opinion on things overall are which I was always careful to say it doesn't always win, makes no difference. When they see you on the phone caliing out plays, and all five lines are lit up, with people asking you for sheets or t-shirts while you are writing tickets out of your window at times, while making it look easy, they are mesmerised and wish that they could do that if but for only a little while. Either they know you know or they think you know in either regard its profitable for both the HOUSE FIRST and then you second. If you just play the game with and make them believe you're there friend they will love you forever and give you every dollar they can during that time. Happily I will add at that.
People are not stupid but they do want to be fooled. Double so when it comes to sportsbetting.
The mature degenrate understands his customers needs and does not mind catering to them to achieve both the houses and his own private needs at the same time. It is also good customer service.
They just want to feel like they have a friend on the inside. Simple.
stuckinvegas said:
There are 25 years worth of do you remembers with that question. It happened twice in my day. One long time runner named Rick missed getting shot to death at point blank range just outside the backdoor one day as the guy grabbed his money and ran. We kept looking at him the next couple of days in amazement. His eyes were like half dollars for a week.
A week in the life behind the counter.
Thanks to the IT department where I work I was able to get a hold of my early posting days stuff when key elements of the Other Side of the Counter (OTC) were being articulated as I was writing the stuff. This from last September is a point blank calssic view of how things were at the Dust in the 90's. I pure forgot about my Shoulder Pads, Helmets and Chinstraps write ups.
sugarbear
USA
618 Posts
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 17:50:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well welcome to the first rambling edition of something I am going to call, Shoulder Pads, Helmets and Chin Straps. In this format I am going to try to give you an insight into the mindset of what goes on, on the Other Side of the Counter. (OTC.) This edition comes to you courtesy of the fact that for the first time in years I have a Friday afternoons off and at this point do not know what to do with myself. So after going over the tenor of how the weekend is shaping up I decided to try to give you a peek inside. I do not know where this going or where this will lead but here we go.
Weekdays leading up to a big football weekends are always fun. No
matter what happened the weekend before, win, lose or draw by Wed
people are full of vim and vigor and ready to for the weekend to come.
Its enough to make you smile. You work in a buisness you know people
can not beat you at, they know this and try none the less. You can
see it there eyes when they come up to the counter. I'm going to get
you this week, I'm ready for you now baby. Meanwhile its a Monday and
while they are telling you this they are trying to bet a 6 teamer for
next Sundays NFL with half the teams off the board because of either teams playing in the Monday night game or injuries of some sort and steady trying to call out the teams that have no line at that. I can not tell you how many times this has happened to me. It is enough to make you smile.
Or worse yet, now its Wednesday and it is time for the parlay cards to come out. (drooolll abounds.) This is an event onto itself. Like sharks in the water they quietly take there seats and just wait. The closer the time comes the more tense the atsmoshere, people start shuffling around and fidgeting. It is enough to make you... As soon as the cards hit people come out of nowhere to boot. You spend all of the next 3 hrs just filling the holders so you can keep up with demand. To me this starts the official perdiction round. This is where everyone comes by and tells you how this team and that team and that one is going to do this and that and so on and so forth.
Meanwhile why they are telling you all this they are pushing anywhere from 10to 50 or more parlay and teaser cards of all sorts through your window from 2 to 5 dollars a piece that they spend a 100 to 150 a week on. Meanwhile you wonder to yourself why this person did not take that same money and bet it evenly on the two or three bets they said were for sure of. In the end when they are doing all this all you can do is and try not to look at people like they are a...
By Friday behind the Counter we start to have a real good idea of what teams we will need over the weekend especially on Saturday. This
is when the worrying begins. The same general teams get bet in the same general ways on all the cards. This means you have the same general teams with a wide array of numbers to cover that all lead into other games and later games. Now remember from our point of view all tickets are winners until they lose. We see things as exposure and our reports tell us where we are in trouble and in what time slot also at times. Add to this we always have to root for the most unpopular teams that week to boot. Now in the BIG picture there are cards and other random happenings that produce winners and as long as there are games left boomerang money is a wonderful thing. All this rebet money plus the re up money from the losers goes on the same general teams in the next time slot thereby doubling your late exposure and increasing by about half the current time slot action. Also note whatever you have in Exposure at the end of friday night doubles on Saturday. By Friday
you can tell which time slot you need to have a real winning day and go into Sunday relaxed. The worse time slot to need is the late ESPN time slot on into the 7 o'clock games (west coast).
A realxed Sunday is a realitive term that refers to how your Sat night went. By the time you get there you know where you need things to go and what your needs are. You can never relax. You can just breathe easier if things went ok or better the night before. Sundays are a complete madhouse that is doubled up by the fact that women do bet pro football therefore making the lines much longer and things much more hectic. Women are also meaner than the men when they lose and you can just guess who gets the short end when that happens. There was this one lady.....Man.....Its no different when they win either only they make sure everyone knows they did and as it was most times, Mr Man the sports fan over there didn't.
Worse still we played in and pumped the women up who did that because it is fun to see them prancing around genuinely happy they won there bet. Its what it is all about in the end and you just dont see to much pure happiness without a big score behind it to often at all. I could go a long time on what happens on Sundays alone.
Well there you go. I hope that this has been an insightful expierence for you and as always Win Lose or Draw (WLD.) I will see you on the Other Side of the Counter (OTC.)
Thanks to the IT department where I work I was able to get a hold of my early posting days stuff when key elements of the Other Side of the Counter (OTC) were being articulated as I was writing the stuff. This from last September is a point blank calssic view of how things were at the Dust in the 90's. I pure forgot about my Shoulder Pads, Helmets and Chinstraps write ups.
sugarbear
USA
618 Posts
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 17:50:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well welcome to the first rambling edition of something I am going to call, Shoulder Pads, Helmets and Chin Straps. In this format I am going to try to give you an insight into the mindset of what goes on, on the Other Side of the Counter. (OTC.) This edition comes to you courtesy of the fact that for the first time in years I have a Friday afternoons off and at this point do not know what to do with myself. So after going over the tenor of how the weekend is shaping up I decided to try to give you a peek inside. I do not know where this going or where this will lead but here we go.
Weekdays leading up to a big football weekends are always fun. No
matter what happened the weekend before, win, lose or draw by Wed
people are full of vim and vigor and ready to for the weekend to come.
Its enough to make you smile. You work in a buisness you know people
can not beat you at, they know this and try none the less. You can
see it there eyes when they come up to the counter. I'm going to get
you this week, I'm ready for you now baby. Meanwhile its a Monday and
while they are telling you this they are trying to bet a 6 teamer for
next Sundays NFL with half the teams off the board because of either teams playing in the Monday night game or injuries of some sort and steady trying to call out the teams that have no line at that. I can not tell you how many times this has happened to me. It is enough to make you smile.
Or worse yet, now its Wednesday and it is time for the parlay cards to come out. (drooolll abounds.) This is an event onto itself. Like sharks in the water they quietly take there seats and just wait. The closer the time comes the more tense the atsmoshere, people start shuffling around and fidgeting. It is enough to make you... As soon as the cards hit people come out of nowhere to boot. You spend all of the next 3 hrs just filling the holders so you can keep up with demand. To me this starts the official perdiction round. This is where everyone comes by and tells you how this team and that team and that one is going to do this and that and so on and so forth.
Meanwhile why they are telling you all this they are pushing anywhere from 10to 50 or more parlay and teaser cards of all sorts through your window from 2 to 5 dollars a piece that they spend a 100 to 150 a week on. Meanwhile you wonder to yourself why this person did not take that same money and bet it evenly on the two or three bets they said were for sure of. In the end when they are doing all this all you can do is and try not to look at people like they are a...
By Friday behind the Counter we start to have a real good idea of what teams we will need over the weekend especially on Saturday. This
is when the worrying begins. The same general teams get bet in the same general ways on all the cards. This means you have the same general teams with a wide array of numbers to cover that all lead into other games and later games. Now remember from our point of view all tickets are winners until they lose. We see things as exposure and our reports tell us where we are in trouble and in what time slot also at times. Add to this we always have to root for the most unpopular teams that week to boot. Now in the BIG picture there are cards and other random happenings that produce winners and as long as there are games left boomerang money is a wonderful thing. All this rebet money plus the re up money from the losers goes on the same general teams in the next time slot thereby doubling your late exposure and increasing by about half the current time slot action. Also note whatever you have in Exposure at the end of friday night doubles on Saturday. By Friday
you can tell which time slot you need to have a real winning day and go into Sunday relaxed. The worse time slot to need is the late ESPN time slot on into the 7 o'clock games (west coast).
A realxed Sunday is a realitive term that refers to how your Sat night went. By the time you get there you know where you need things to go and what your needs are. You can never relax. You can just breathe easier if things went ok or better the night before. Sundays are a complete madhouse that is doubled up by the fact that women do bet pro football therefore making the lines much longer and things much more hectic. Women are also meaner than the men when they lose and you can just guess who gets the short end when that happens. There was this one lady.....Man.....Its no different when they win either only they make sure everyone knows they did and as it was most times, Mr Man the sports fan over there didn't.
Worse still we played in and pumped the women up who did that because it is fun to see them prancing around genuinely happy they won there bet. Its what it is all about in the end and you just dont see to much pure happiness without a big score behind it to often at all. I could go a long time on what happens on Sundays alone.
Well there you go. I hope that this has been an insightful expierence for you and as always Win Lose or Draw (WLD.) I will see you on the Other Side of the Counter (OTC.)
Illini said:
This is what I said. While they are still squares and do square things once they make a move however they do it in sharp ways. Its what its all about in the end.
What I mean is that there are what I call Sharpares whom are squares that have learned to think in sharp ways about there sportsbetting. They line shop, know the value of certain numbers, they genrally take the time to go over stats and read various publications out there in an effort to make what they do better. In the end they know what they like and at what price before ever coming to the book but once they get there they do not act on it because they are to busy being squares first.
It is what Bob McCune calls the process of handicapping which is more like the process of guessicapping which is exactly what most do. I call it hope, wish and pray because thats what people do when they bet games. Hope, wish and pray that they win. Dont doubt it.
When a true sharp comes in and see the number he likes he bets and leaves.
When a sharpare comes, he sees the number but must now go through the process of being a square. This means in general they now have to talk to there buddies in the casino about whom they like and hopes he does not hear anything to disuade him. Most can not bet unless its an hour to game time or less also.
For instance you have capped a game at say -5.5 that goes off at 4:30 but its only 2 pm. Your number is there but its to early to bet it, so you wait. Or worse still they see a better number and instantly think THEY moved it so something is wrong and they go double check everything.
Of course the latter is subjective to your opinion on the game which sharpares think should always move there way. When it does not there work goes for not and they are back to square 1.
There are many examples but in the end what they say they want and at what price is a lot of the time avaliable if the book is not on post. They have spent time in your window going over exactly why they like the play and everything to just turn around go sit down and hang out for awhile
before betting.
In the end all can get what they want if they act right away and have confidence in there work but they dont. So while the sharp number is avaliable they dont always take it and a lot of times they "REVERSE THEMSELVES AND TAKE THE VALUE SIDE" if the number moves to far against them.
In the end whether they pull the trigger or not your regular customers whom are sharpares move in sharp ways because thats all they think about. There are many followers and imitaters and so they do what the wise do and in the same style whether the number is fresh or stale is irregardless as the Modus Oprandi is to do what they do and be like them.
When you extend this to the big picture and you are looking at hundreds to thousands of bets across your marketplace you will see that as a whole a lot of the time the sharpares are right around the sharp number or are quite naturally thru the vehicle of Random Bet Factor on the steam games. Its scary at moments how it pulls together like that, seemingly out of nowhere.
BoS/BetMill are terrified of it as well as others and it is how many of you have become to be painted as betting steam games or accused of being true wise guys. Simple Random Bet Factor causes many of you tremendous problems as these places have no clue on what margin they want to keep there numbers on at all or even what they should be.
I hope that made sense as it was harder to answer than I thought.
The preseason starts in July continued...
Sugarbear said:Well here we are the 1st of July the longest month of the year. Everyone is on vacation and or fast asleep in one form/spot or another throughtout the book a baseball game droning on in the background. People are milling about
complaining about all the tourist that are descending for the holiday disturbing there month long nap before the games start in August. People can not wait because about a good full week after the magazines have come out and all have had a chance to "Study" experts come falling out of the clear blue sky. :howdy:
Now mind you this is the single book era of the middle 90's will say its 95 so some things were a lot newer and had either not been perfected yet or did not exist yet or wasn't the form/size you know it today as. You must always keep this in mind.
I wish I had Indian drums because everyone is on the hunt/scalp. Looking for season win totals and discussing the early lines that were out there and who was going to do what. Better still they had to get there tickets in early as the tourist are coming whom always overreact and they can scalp back maybe. There going to set them up so to speak. Is that right?
Now mind you this is a collective mindset as opposed to indivuals saying this as seen from the Other Side of the Counter. (OTC).
You cant help but sit there and smile as people start coming by grabbing the future sheets and telling you who is who. Now a mature degenrate needing to make folding money to fuel the lifestyle has to gather information where he can. One and foemost everyone has a certain sight on things so IT PAYS BOTH PERSONALLY AND PROFFESIONALLY to listen to what people have to say as regular average gamblers will tell you there secrets without much promting at all. Its what goes on, on a daily basis anyway. Much like at these fourms.
Hey Juice whats going on, who do you like today? (Surprise there huh) Hey x whats going on I like xxx what are you into as I watch said person ruffling thru the various sheets. Where are the future sheets at? Right there I say as I point it out and ask at the same time, you got a hot one or two this year?
Several minutes later and often a extra person or two would enter the disscussion you can come away with some valuable information but more importantly small insights you can use down the road.
The mature degenrate understands his customer base and knows that they come from all over and of course have there favorite teams. Now people are not stupid but they do like to be fooled. Its what they paid for. Certainly when they come to Vegas. Keeping a little file of info on this team or that and using it in a converstation gets people excited. Different people look for diiferent things. Mostly its either smile, feed in and make them feel like there right or there team is gonna kill em or very quietly they come up to your window and look around like there doing something wrong and ask you who the wise guys are betting in there own way if you understand what I mean.
It can be profitable and they love you forever. Come by and see you every time they are in town to see how good ole Juice is doing.
The flip side is meanwhile other people are doing the same thing behind the counter and we are quietly taking notes on things about what people say.
When the money starts showing on the so called hot teams your customer base told you about you can move quicker to cut them off and swing things your way. I say that because the wise about say the month before beat everything down and we are exposed with no real coverage as they are waiting on you to catch up as always.
Some of the better players you have developed keys on are about an avg 200-500 bettor and is the type to play seeable future money on things early so to speak. While they are still squares and do square things once they make a move however they do it in sharp ways. Its what its all about in the end.
So you adjust off them becuase either A there ego is talking and they are taking a bad number either way as we know what happened earlier or they take the value number and we adjust off that IF IT IS INDICATED. It is never automatic. There are no rules just adjustments. You make the best decision for the house at that time,given what has been indicated we want to do with that segment of the market that day or beyond. You do nt go outside your indicators without a very good reason. You had better have one too at that.
One thing I have observed about the average bettor throughtout time is that they can come to the window tell you everything they like and then go sit down without betting it because they have not gone thru the process of handicapping in the book yet which is more like the social event of the day and thus they are in no real hurry. These are regular working people mind you now with regular lives. Not all that I refer to are bums or the like.
And so they mill about and its the same basic question who do you like or who do you got? Oh juice by the way can I get a couple of drink tickets?
Sure as you slide them a couple and smile as they will be back shortly to give you there money and pay for those tickets x times over for the rest of there lives. You gotta love this buisness.
To be continued...
Yes folks you gotta love this buisness. In the end for a clean well lighted place and a few favors here and there people will just give you there money playing a game they can not beat you at.
Of course this is evident most during football which does start in July with every magazine in the country as well as ESPN filling the slow days up with endless hype and predictions. In my minds eye this exact time of year just before the all star break is called the wind up. It very certainly feels like that. Before the all star break all your expert friends tell you what is what and argue with anyone who disagrees with them just for something to do.
After the All Star break its a different story all together. People just let out one big exhale and let loose because its football season. The games are just a couple of weeks away and suddenly there seems to be no time
to get ready for the upcoming season. The air of anticipation grows with each passing day on both sides of the counter as the games draw near.
This of course starts the questions and demand answers section of the
program. The first question amazingly to us over the years is......
When is Docs book coming out???? People live and die by this thing. Its not when is the first football schedule coming out or when is the first college football game which is already up on the board but since people dont read we answer over a million times, its not one of a number of logical things you think one would ask.
Of course we dont know and convey that to the customers which immediatly leads to WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DONT KNOW WHEN ITS COMING OUT! How am I supposed to get ready for the season without those trends he puts in the back of it? I am serious folks. Dead serious.
This leads to outright demands to call DOC himself up and find out when he is delivering them. I honestly can not tell you how many times that has happened.
After that question the second one is when do the parlay cards come out for the first week of preseason? Of course we answer when the games come up that week. This leads to variuos evil looks known as the cold stare of death or a high degree of dissapointment. In either case training camp has not even opened yet into barely opened when these type of questions come.
Toward the end of the month people start acting like they are in a cage or something just waiting for the bookie to come by and let them out. Do not worry we will as we always do.
It is only July. It is only July. August will be here soon enough.
They started in Las Vegas first. A view from the bottom.
First of all most of this is not my story to tell but I can give you a view from the bottom and try to impart to you what things were like when Senator McCain went on his crusade and tried to outlaw sportsbetting in Las Vegas.
Please note some views expressed were not always shared by all and that this is the first time I have ever spoken about this time period so I dont know where I am going exactly. It was an emotional time both times.
It was 97 if I remember correctly and it started rather quietly as I remember.
Senator McCain said something or made a speech or more correctly started making speeches about how sportsbetting was corrupting America and then somewhere along the way blamed the rise in popularity of offshore sports betting on Las vegas because we wetted your appetite to gamble on games making the offshores irresitable. Therefore it had to be outlawed to save the childern and protect Americas values against nefarious criminal underworld types that prey on the unsuspecting and naive thus destroying there lives.
Now lets all get one thing straight right here before I move on. The Feds drove the Vegas Old Guard into obscurity leaving those who valued there jobs plus the new ones to police the gambling community and fill out all the paper work. We get the whole place cleaned up, the Feds are long gone and now chasing them in earnest offshore since they had nothing else to do. It was to early for there retirement and the usual suspects from the 70's and 80's were up to there ususal tricks and theres nothing like hanging out with your friends and getting some R and R after running around after them in hot ass Vegas all those years. Can you imagine the stories?
Anyhow so now that the dirty work is done and Vegas as a whole is regulated
they turn around and now blame us for the countrys ills because we do a good job and all want to be like us. Of course they go after sportsbetting because that what they have always gone after first. They chased them from NY, Clevland, Chicago, Texas and other places over it right to Vegas and right onto an island. (A few here lived thru it all and I would love to hear from.) This is what regulation is. They stop accuasing you of being a criminal with them and turn around and make everything you do look criminal and sinister with intent to destroy american values and the other bullshit we can repaeat by heart. (Plus a slew of corprate stuff I will reveal later.)
When that hit the roof came right off. How dare these stupid fucking piecies of shit turn around and accuse us of moral wrong doing after ONE, PUTTIING US IN POWER AFTER 2. CHASING THE VERY ONES OUT OF THE COUNTRY WHOM ARE NOW DOING BUISNESS AS USUAL. Its our fault you drove them away starting 60 years ago? So its our fault we did our jobs, played by the rules and made things safe for pepole. We did all this for what?
SO YOU COULD TURN AROUND AND VICTIMIZE US?!! There central argument was that if we outlaw sportsbetting in Vegas this will drasticaly reduce the public appetite for betting these games. They also went for outlawing point spreads in the papers and other mediums to. They said point spreads and the like encoraged people to bet illegally so it had to be resrticted. If they cant see it ot or access it they wont want to bet the games. They were serious folks. Now I worked at the Dust. You know the people who put out Americas line. How do you think that went over behind the counter? Joe Lupo was the lead guy in the first fight and had a few things to say about the....of the people in power. People really believed that was going to happen and that there would be no more schedule or odds to see or anything. The Gov had its Mojo on and all the leauges were behind it and honestly believed the offshores would follow suit. In total we were incredulous over some stuff that was said the first time around Joe Lupo the most of all. He beat down every silly little thing that McCain said. They pressed the suppression will work plus banning sportsbetting in Vegas as the answer and were making leeway or so they thought. Bottom line people were scared. Very scared.
The phrase ALL INFORMATION IS FOR NEWS MATTER ONLY AND IS NOT INTENEDED TO VIOLATE ANY LOCAL,STATE OR FEDREAL LAWS was born of this attempt to ban publishing of pointspreads and the like. In the end sportsbooks get people into the casino and they were not going for that crap and this was the compromise that came out of it. Before 98 that phrase did not exist as well as a couple of others I will reveal later.
This is what regulation is. Someone regulating something that is already regulated to make it look like there doing there job right on down to me at the bottom. The guy who does the work, has to make things work.
To be continued!
First of all most of this is not my story to tell but I can give you a view from the bottom and try to impart to you what things were like when Senator McCain went on his crusade and tried to outlaw sportsbetting in Las Vegas.
Please note some views expressed were not always shared by all and that this is the first time I have ever spoken about this time period so I dont know where I am going exactly. It was an emotional time both times.
It was 97 if I remember correctly and it started rather quietly as I remember.
Senator McCain said something or made a speech or more correctly started making speeches about how sportsbetting was corrupting America and then somewhere along the way blamed the rise in popularity of offshore sports betting on Las vegas because we wetted your appetite to gamble on games making the offshores irresitable. Therefore it had to be outlawed to save the childern and protect Americas values against nefarious criminal underworld types that prey on the unsuspecting and naive thus destroying there lives.
Now lets all get one thing straight right here before I move on. The Feds drove the Vegas Old Guard into obscurity leaving those who valued there jobs plus the new ones to police the gambling community and fill out all the paper work. We get the whole place cleaned up, the Feds are long gone and now chasing them in earnest offshore since they had nothing else to do. It was to early for there retirement and the usual suspects from the 70's and 80's were up to there ususal tricks and theres nothing like hanging out with your friends and getting some R and R after running around after them in hot ass Vegas all those years. Can you imagine the stories?
Anyhow so now that the dirty work is done and Vegas as a whole is regulated
they turn around and now blame us for the countrys ills because we do a good job and all want to be like us. Of course they go after sportsbetting because that what they have always gone after first. They chased them from NY, Clevland, Chicago, Texas and other places over it right to Vegas and right onto an island. (A few here lived thru it all and I would love to hear from.) This is what regulation is. They stop accuasing you of being a criminal with them and turn around and make everything you do look criminal and sinister with intent to destroy american values and the other bullshit we can repaeat by heart. (Plus a slew of corprate stuff I will reveal later.)
When that hit the roof came right off. How dare these stupid fucking piecies of shit turn around and accuse us of moral wrong doing after ONE, PUTTIING US IN POWER AFTER 2. CHASING THE VERY ONES OUT OF THE COUNTRY WHOM ARE NOW DOING BUISNESS AS USUAL. Its our fault you drove them away starting 60 years ago? So its our fault we did our jobs, played by the rules and made things safe for pepole. We did all this for what?
SO YOU COULD TURN AROUND AND VICTIMIZE US?!! There central argument was that if we outlaw sportsbetting in Vegas this will drasticaly reduce the public appetite for betting these games. They also went for outlawing point spreads in the papers and other mediums to. They said point spreads and the like encoraged people to bet illegally so it had to be resrticted. If they cant see it ot or access it they wont want to bet the games. They were serious folks. Now I worked at the Dust. You know the people who put out Americas line. How do you think that went over behind the counter? Joe Lupo was the lead guy in the first fight and had a few things to say about the....of the people in power. People really believed that was going to happen and that there would be no more schedule or odds to see or anything. The Gov had its Mojo on and all the leauges were behind it and honestly believed the offshores would follow suit. In total we were incredulous over some stuff that was said the first time around Joe Lupo the most of all. He beat down every silly little thing that McCain said. They pressed the suppression will work plus banning sportsbetting in Vegas as the answer and were making leeway or so they thought. Bottom line people were scared. Very scared.
The phrase ALL INFORMATION IS FOR NEWS MATTER ONLY AND IS NOT INTENEDED TO VIOLATE ANY LOCAL,STATE OR FEDREAL LAWS was born of this attempt to ban publishing of pointspreads and the like. In the end sportsbooks get people into the casino and they were not going for that crap and this was the compromise that came out of it. Before 98 that phrase did not exist as well as a couple of others I will reveal later.
This is what regulation is. Someone regulating something that is already regulated to make it look like there doing there job right on down to me at the bottom. The guy who does the work, has to make things work.
To be continued!
We are not criminals. The nerve and the gall.
You know one thing I can say for all I speak for is that in we never really knew what sparked the crusade against Vegas. It started quietly. One day very early on that I remember clear as a bell happened between Joe and I after hearing McCain had said something to the effect of bannning sports betting in Vegas and laughing in a get out of here way. No shot. In addition he was initially attacked for being fake and using it for a presidential platform launch. He was not taken all that serious. It was shrugged off by all for a time as it came during slow season when it started in seems.
Thanks to JC I now know how it came to be that McCain and company got the idea to go on there crusade against Vegas. He recanted the story the other night on MW of how The NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL sent him a letter ordering him to stop taking bets on there teams. When he refused they called there friends in NY to indict him on illegal bookmaking. From there McCain and Co got the idea to use that to there advantage aginst Vegas or harp on the band wagon and twist it all to hell to keep the conservative moderate base happy. (HMMM. Who was McCain pandering to?Hmmm sound familiar) He of course was all religious right back then but many dems jumped on so as to look good.
So all this we dont want our teams bet on or have point spreads used stuff they unfurled is because JC refused to obey an order from the 4 major sports leauges whom had no jurisdiction over him and was breaking no laws where he was at.
THE NERVE AND THE GALL. WHO ARE THEY EXACTLY?
Please all note I am talking about the single book era in Vegas. The time period covering the spring of 97 thru the spring of 2000. Not the modern merge era you see today and the internet offhore was new still. Also the greater half of the story is the desire shut down sportsbetting period in Vegas. Its just that the pointspread stuff got more attention and are the memeories coming out at present. I will get to the big picture at some point.
A lot is rushing back right now.
Now no disrespect to the bettor who has never worked behind the counter in any capicity on what I might say next. In the end all you have to worry about is your money and where you will get down. The rest who work a job in the industry go thru hell and could care if they ever make or take a bet on a thing again in the end.
The end effect is criminalization and demonization. What has me ticked off till this very day still is having to sit behind the counter and endure the onslaught of insecurity and fear plus endless questions of "what are you going to do"? Some with concern for a friend, others out of fear and yet others who are standing in your window wondering if this is the last legal bet they will be able to make in Vegas,bending down low talking in speakeasy.
All the while you read and and hear all over the place how sportsbetting in Vegas is fueling the offshore industry and must be stopped. Now understand the 4 major leauges not only wanted the betting to stop but the point spread from being produced and put out.
Now being at the Dust whom put out Americas line that directly affected us and the politicians really believed, I mean really truly believed that if we stopped producing the line and the oddsmakers were prohibited from putting one out people would not have accsess to this stuff and be able to bet. They really believed people would not get it from somewhere else. I can tell you the people were scared. Very scared. Every little story that came out negative aginst Vegas made everyones blood pressure go up 10-20 points. People running around with there eyes wide open scared they may not be able to bet much longer IS NOT A GOOD THING TO WITNESS WHATS SO EVER. The desperation some had was unreal. In furthrance they thought it would hurt the offshores whom they assumed were dependent on us but found out differntly. The threat of the offshores putting out an illegal line vs a legal one won out in the long run but the 4 leauges and the Feds were adamant shutting it down would work better but more incredibly if you could not see it or access it you would not want it and the interest would go away.
Honest to god they believed out of sight out of mind and pushed it hard. There were several tense moments over the two time periods much like today.
The end effect is demonization. You sit there and read how you are destroying american values and all thats wrong with betting in America. They are talking about people they allowed to be there in there first place. They bring Robert Walker and Joe Lupo to power and then turn on Joe to start with because we have done such a good job of making things safe. Cleaning up the Stardust image made betting glamourus and cool again therefore it must be banned.
They kept pushing its Vegas's fault. All the rhectoric was aimed at shutting us down. All of Vegas. If you cant come here to bet games you wont come here to gamble thus saving you and your childern while putting us out of jobs at the same time. ALL OF US. This would clean up America they said. In very basic Joe called playing pretend and attacked it as such along with several
others.
Others like Robert Walker, D. Wayne Mauldin, Bob Scucci, Art Manteris, Chuck Esposito, John Avello, Bobby Davis and a host of others behind the scenes worked very hard to save everyones job and stop the politicians from calling us dirty names becasue offshore betting became popular and they wanted to stop it. For a long while it was mean and nasty and I just feared for my career and aspirations like everyone else.
Just regular ordinary everyday people who need a job to survive and are doing nothing nothing illegal all the while being made to look like in the regular world we are.
Do you have any idea how humilating that is in the big picture. People look at you that way when there in your window too. Dont doubt it. When something is contributing to an illegal criminal enterprise people act like they are somewhere they are not supposed to be. I saw it in various people about half the time. They would be looking around stareing at things trying to see what exactly is so criminal. They come away quite bemused because it looks like nothing. I have seen dissapointment on some peoples faces when its not near as sinsister and dark as they were making it. Confusion is more like it.
Do you have any idea how that feels?
All because some sports leauges dont want people betting on games and have friends in high places they can call to try and do something about it.
The Nerve and the Gall.
To be continued.
You know one thing I can say for all I speak for is that in we never really knew what sparked the crusade against Vegas. It started quietly. One day very early on that I remember clear as a bell happened between Joe and I after hearing McCain had said something to the effect of bannning sports betting in Vegas and laughing in a get out of here way. No shot. In addition he was initially attacked for being fake and using it for a presidential platform launch. He was not taken all that serious. It was shrugged off by all for a time as it came during slow season when it started in seems.
Thanks to JC I now know how it came to be that McCain and company got the idea to go on there crusade against Vegas. He recanted the story the other night on MW of how The NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL sent him a letter ordering him to stop taking bets on there teams. When he refused they called there friends in NY to indict him on illegal bookmaking. From there McCain and Co got the idea to use that to there advantage aginst Vegas or harp on the band wagon and twist it all to hell to keep the conservative moderate base happy. (HMMM. Who was McCain pandering to?Hmmm sound familiar) He of course was all religious right back then but many dems jumped on so as to look good.
So all this we dont want our teams bet on or have point spreads used stuff they unfurled is because JC refused to obey an order from the 4 major sports leauges whom had no jurisdiction over him and was breaking no laws where he was at.
THE NERVE AND THE GALL. WHO ARE THEY EXACTLY?
Please all note I am talking about the single book era in Vegas. The time period covering the spring of 97 thru the spring of 2000. Not the modern merge era you see today and the internet offhore was new still. Also the greater half of the story is the desire shut down sportsbetting period in Vegas. Its just that the pointspread stuff got more attention and are the memeories coming out at present. I will get to the big picture at some point.
A lot is rushing back right now.
Now no disrespect to the bettor who has never worked behind the counter in any capicity on what I might say next. In the end all you have to worry about is your money and where you will get down. The rest who work a job in the industry go thru hell and could care if they ever make or take a bet on a thing again in the end.
The end effect is criminalization and demonization. What has me ticked off till this very day still is having to sit behind the counter and endure the onslaught of insecurity and fear plus endless questions of "what are you going to do"? Some with concern for a friend, others out of fear and yet others who are standing in your window wondering if this is the last legal bet they will be able to make in Vegas,bending down low talking in speakeasy.
All the while you read and and hear all over the place how sportsbetting in Vegas is fueling the offshore industry and must be stopped. Now understand the 4 major leauges not only wanted the betting to stop but the point spread from being produced and put out.
Now being at the Dust whom put out Americas line that directly affected us and the politicians really believed, I mean really truly believed that if we stopped producing the line and the oddsmakers were prohibited from putting one out people would not have accsess to this stuff and be able to bet. They really believed people would not get it from somewhere else. I can tell you the people were scared. Very scared. Every little story that came out negative aginst Vegas made everyones blood pressure go up 10-20 points. People running around with there eyes wide open scared they may not be able to bet much longer IS NOT A GOOD THING TO WITNESS WHATS SO EVER. The desperation some had was unreal. In furthrance they thought it would hurt the offshores whom they assumed were dependent on us but found out differntly. The threat of the offshores putting out an illegal line vs a legal one won out in the long run but the 4 leauges and the Feds were adamant shutting it down would work better but more incredibly if you could not see it or access it you would not want it and the interest would go away.
Honest to god they believed out of sight out of mind and pushed it hard. There were several tense moments over the two time periods much like today.
The end effect is demonization. You sit there and read how you are destroying american values and all thats wrong with betting in America. They are talking about people they allowed to be there in there first place. They bring Robert Walker and Joe Lupo to power and then turn on Joe to start with because we have done such a good job of making things safe. Cleaning up the Stardust image made betting glamourus and cool again therefore it must be banned.
They kept pushing its Vegas's fault. All the rhectoric was aimed at shutting us down. All of Vegas. If you cant come here to bet games you wont come here to gamble thus saving you and your childern while putting us out of jobs at the same time. ALL OF US. This would clean up America they said. In very basic Joe called playing pretend and attacked it as such along with several
others.
Others like Robert Walker, D. Wayne Mauldin, Bob Scucci, Art Manteris, Chuck Esposito, John Avello, Bobby Davis and a host of others behind the scenes worked very hard to save everyones job and stop the politicians from calling us dirty names becasue offshore betting became popular and they wanted to stop it. For a long while it was mean and nasty and I just feared for my career and aspirations like everyone else.
Just regular ordinary everyday people who need a job to survive and are doing nothing nothing illegal all the while being made to look like in the regular world we are.
Do you have any idea how humilating that is in the big picture. People look at you that way when there in your window too. Dont doubt it. When something is contributing to an illegal criminal enterprise people act like they are somewhere they are not supposed to be. I saw it in various people about half the time. They would be looking around stareing at things trying to see what exactly is so criminal. They come away quite bemused because it looks like nothing. I have seen dissapointment on some peoples faces when its not near as sinsister and dark as they were making it. Confusion is more like it.
Do you have any idea how that feels?
All because some sports leauges dont want people betting on games and have friends in high places they can call to try and do something about it.
The Nerve and the Gall.
To be continued.
Sugarbear, thanks for putting a face on what was and is really happening. You are dead on with the demonization of sports betting by the holy rollers. Just ANOTHER example of people trying to stuff their narrow morality down others throats. Religion and intolerance of others beliefs throughout history have killed more people than every thing else combined. Carry on, my brother. LT:toast:
Coach LT said:
Thanks Coach. I did not realize I was putting a face on things till you said that. Memeories have been sparked of that time period and we are in the time that matches the darkest days of the crusade of the late 90's. However on the other hand what is really happening is what happened in 89 after they had passed RICO and were organized enough to go after the big fish upstairs in the Casino even though history currently makes it look like they went after Scotty Schettler and the Stardust. To a degree they did but he was just one big fish in a big net of much much bigger fishes.
The Boyds were backed by the Feds who had agents inside and on every corner watcing everything from like 87-92 and steady cleaning up everything before fading away. Everybody became to be pushed/shoved in the end in the Stardust because it was the last old school place left as the first stages of the corparate consolidation simply bought the old places and either closed them or rebuilt with new managmnet in place and a lot of old timers were left disenfranchised. The other not so old were left hanging and with decisions to make.
Scottys greatest sin even though it was not a sin back then and the fact people gambled on games was widely accepted as well as no one cared was that he was popular and made sportsbetting popular in just the way Americans love to percieve it which made playing Jr Wiseguy all that much more FUN. Now there was stuff going on in the book that have given rise to some regulations in the industry today because what happened in those days at the Dust is the model they use in training so there is duplicity on the entire instituons behalf who did nothing to stop it as well as never stopped there ways to the very end. Much like what is happening offshore right now. He was simply to popular.
Whats happening with BoS now is the same things that happened when they first started unsealing RICO indictmnets against true top tier underworld types here. Problem is no one knows any of the peoples names who were being arrested. However they did know Scottys name as he ran Americas No. One race and sports book as well as put out Americas line. While they were not going after him at all or was he ever investigated he was made to look like the leader of it all from his position as director of the race and sportsbook and blamed for it all in the end. This resulted in him being black balled in Vegas. He in no way shape and form deserved that fate and many are still angry about it to this day. No one man can do all that he was blamed for by himself. He walked a free man in the end like many with what ever he had. Is that what happens to be people who pull off stuff for years on end like what happened in the movie casino which is what in general everyone thinks is what drove the bookie side of the Vegas Old Guard away?
What eventually brought down the the vegas old guard happned much earlier in 1983 while the very first stages of consolidation were just starting to really buy the old places and make things more corprate and that was the invention of the IBM series 1 or what commonly became to be known as CBS. This was a computer program developed by Jim Feists engineer Javeed Buntar who worked for NSS at the time. Now in a partnership with Javeed Buntar and Vic Salerno, Jim tried to bring it to market to see if a computer program could help run a race and sportsbook.
Scotty Schettler broke his back to convince the owners of the Dust at the time to bring it in which they did. This changed everything overnight.
The first versions were not very good as doing things by hand was still faster but what it did as it spread was synchronize books adminstrative work and what used to take overnight to do (like grading tickets) only took 5 minutes now. Many people last there jobs overnight when this happened but history shows they were the lucky ones as most landed on there feet quite nicely and were well esconed in there seats when the kickers to the CBS computers came along and put people out of there careers but did give rise to new ones with many of those people taking them still behind the scenes here today 17-20 years later.
Now the computer at first caught on slowly and while some books used it the outrageous middles the VOG were used to were still there albieght a point or two less as slow or not the numbers kind started sorta being around each other instead of grossly diffrent across the street just the 2 years before. (Its now 85.)
Now the 2 big things that kicked the CBS computers into high use was 1. The lowering of the federal excise tax kown as FET. In Nevada till about 85 the books had to pay a 10 percent tax on all sports wagers which was passed to the player. If you made a 2 dollar horse bet you had to pay 2.20 on a hundred dollar to win bet it was 121-100. Can you imagine?
How did the wise survive? The horror. It was lowered to one quarter of one percent which was absorbed by the books. Right after it passed a ton of new books opened up in these newly corparated places providing jobs for really at one point to anyone who wanted to start crossing over and doing things the news ways in a regulated world no matter how many new things come up. It was only 85 but the handwriting was on the wall much like it was in 2004 in your history. Some people stayed but many left in those begining times of the computer era we now live in.
The second thing was the advent of sports signal which gave all the books at the same time a look at the lines from the other places. All the new places of course had the IBM 1 mainframe with the CBS program on it so adjusting numbers and trying to not get buried booking was a little easier.
Contrary to popular belief the bookies running the new places were really just the next group of ticket writers who graduated to supervisor under the greats themselves and continued to grow right along with the industry. They knew what they were doing when it came to bookmaking and the learned thru there training classes how to book in the corprate world and the ways to run the book.
Thats the big difference between many in power here today and there mentors. Its not there book to run. They have to work with in what ever the people upstiars tell them. In the old days it was the bookies book to do with as he wanted without question.
Once sports signal took full hold by 87 most of the VOG old guard started to fade away voluntarily so to speak. You are talking about guys going back to the late 50's on whom for years literaly walked, biked or drove across the street for dramatically different numbers and they employeed an army to do so in order to catch those middles and scalps. Even bottom and middle feeders without the big guys resources made a nice living on these middles and scalps. It was gravy for all on both sides.
Sports signal brought all that to an end as the gap on the numbers closed big time so many simply faded into the background or flat retired as there money was made and all was takin care of. The younger guys however were in trouble and many of the bottom and middle feeders did not survive. There were to many places and to much new blood compettion to compete for such small margins. Once consolidation really took hold by 89 they were mostly gone and the true hard core vegas old guard was what was left to gather at the dust in those ending days of there era they were in. At the time they would have been an average age of about 37-40 when I say that. They now sit at median 58-62 and are now the elders of the society whom have lived thru what we are right now at least 3 full times as an adult with solid memeories from there childhood to boot.
With there on the strip outs down to a precious few and new places popping up all over the place making it clear that neafarious types were not welcomed the VOG had no place to go. Worse still while not criminals they were looked upon as such when they tried to find jobs and the like and were treated as such. Many got into bad situations quickly as it is how it goes in our society and started to kill themselves over the crumbs that were left on the floor so to speak. This thinned out the VOG even more.
Please note during all this the Feds were doing the same old thing in Vegas in chasing the mob out. They made there threats etc but all in all the things that shut down the VOG were happening on its own course without any help from the Feds just like it is today.
The BoS arrest is like RICO before it. Its the hammer that breaks up the status quo and eventually makes things better for all. (Things were safer and seen in a clean light by 94, 5 years after the Vegas Rico charges) In both cases natural implosions were underway as there was simply to much to handle and the money attracted to much attention. But the killer is those responsible for it being there could no longer manage it. It had gotten to big. Just like what is going on out there right now out there, all the while the corps are advancing and quietly taking over.
RICO broke up much and brought tremendous buying oppurtunitys to the table for those willing to play the game. Much like what will happen shortly out there. RICO and the BoS arrest were not needed in either case becasue the factors that cause these types of collapses were long in place and in practice. It just helps.
The Feds have never really been needed. In the end all there efforts have done is spurr inovation and make an industry grow to a 12 billion dollar one that was born because some people in NY had a problem with people betting on games and so chased the bookies out of state to Nevada and onto an island eventually where the US is still trying to shut it all down to no avail.
