Palmer vs Ben Roth-Who's better?

[dialitup]

eh, I don't know about that. He had a great year last year 32 TDs/12 INTs while completing 68% of his passes, a remarkable year, very unfortunate that he was injured on his first pass in the opening playoff game vs the Steelers. This year he had 28 TDs/13 INTs. Yes they faltered this year though, but I have a hard time blaming him on the bobbled snap vs Denver or the 2nd most accurate kicker in NFL history missing a 39 yarder to get them in the playoffs this year vs the Steelers.

He's just a quarteback. Jeff Garcia has had much more success in the NFL. Carson Palmer is part of the hype machine. He is better than Eli Manning, I will give him that. Very few quarterbacks who have been given the opportunities he has have achieved less. in terms of winning big games. I can't even think of a single big game he has been on the winning side of. Look up the number of games he has played in...then tell me what his biggest win is. History is written by the winners. If Indy didn't beat the Pats then Peyton would still be a loser quarterback.

 

[Seymour]

is this a joke?

I think you meant to say - is this a fucking sick joke?

Ben will be lucky to be in the league in 2 years.

 

[ECS]

A quarterback leads his team to a touchdown in the NFL. Team loses game. If that's your highlight then so be it. Who remembers that drive? Nothing spectacular about scoring a TD in the NFL. Jake Plummer led the league in comebacks at Arizona.

You asked for a crunch time drive, I gave you one. I guess he should of went out their and long snapped as well?

 

[dialitup]

You asked for a crunch time drive, I gave you one. I guess he should of went out their and long snapped as well?

Eli Manning led the Giants to a few comeback TD's just like that. They lost the games, so how crunch time is it? If they were down 4 then it would have been for the win. Sorry, you picked a simple touchdown drive in a game the Bengals lost. They couldn't even win a single game down the stretch.

 

[ECS]

You are talking about the bengals, not carson palmer, so which one are you debating? Carson put the bengals in position to win games down the stretch, but it was not meant to be.....

 

[Matt24]

He's just a quarteback. Jeff Garcia has had much more success in the NFL. Carson Palmer is part of the hype machine. He is better than Eli Manning, I will give him that. Very few quarterbacks who have been given the opportunities he has have achieved less. in terms of winning big games. I can't even think of a single big game he has been on the winning side of. Look up the number of games he has played in...then tell me what his biggest win is. History is written by the winners. If Indy didn't beat the Pats then Peyton would still be a loser quarterback.

yeah i'm not sure about big games, I know his performance against Baltimore in 2004 at Baltimore kept them in the playoff race and was huge at the time. He went 29-36 for over 380 yards and 3 TDs. winning at Pitt in 05 while throwing 3 TDs 0 INTs to help clinch the division was pretty big. in 06, nothing stands out, they didnt really win any big games, but to compare him to Eli is sort of silly.

Eli has never completed more tahn 57% of his passes in a season and only completed 52% in 05, though his TD/INTs isnt horrible I guess 24/16, 24/17 last 2 years, still no where near Carson's #s. His TDs/INTs in 04 was 6/9 while completing less than 49% of his passes. I think Eli needs to get a bit more accurate

 

[dialitup]

yeah i'm not sure about big games, I know his performance against Baltimore in 2004 at Baltimore kept them in the playoff race and was huge at the time. He went 29-36 for over 380 yards and 3 TDs. winning at Pitt in 05 while throwing 3 TDs 0 INTs to help clinch the division was pretty big. in 06, nothing stands out, they didnt really win any big games, but to compare him to Eli is sort of silly.

Eli has never completed more tahn 57% of his passes in a season and only completed 52% in 05, though his TD/INTs isnt horrible I guess 24/16, 24/17 last 2 years, still no where near Carson's #s. His TDs/INTs in 04 was 6/9 while completing less than 49% of his passes. I think Eli needs to get a bit more accurate

Eli Manning and Rex Grossman are neck and neck in my book. Carson Palmer is miles ahead of each. I was just making the point that a touchdown in a game that you do not win is not too much to hang your hat on, considering it wasn't even a playoff game. You gotta win. Some people have it and some people don't. It's the difference between Joe Montana and Jim Kelly. That's how history will judge them, anyways.

 

[ECS]

Well, even though your arguement was pretty weak up to this point, I will give you that carson and the bengals need to do something this year

 

[dialitup]

Well, even though your arguement was pretty weak up to this point, I will give you that carson and the bengals need to do something this year

Well, your arguments that Carson Palmer is great were quite brilliant. He is a legendary player only to those from USC and Cincinnati. He might never win a playoff game in his career.

 

[HinesWard86]

Jesus Christ, one bad year and already you vultures all circling over Big Ben. Unbelievable. The guy was an emotional trainwreck this year and was obviously not all there. You know those are the type of things that happen when you have life-changing moments. And maybe Big Ben will never get back to that point where he could avoid any rush and make something happen but with those two years he became the second greatest QB in Steelers history.

The man was able to make plays constantly even with his shitty pass blocking OT's letting their men get by. He was able to stay up long enough just to hit his receiver even with a DE dragging him down. Carson folds up like a little bitch when he's hit conversely. Palmer is a better Vinny Testaverde. If you give him time in the pocket he is great, but if you hit him a couple of times and rattle him it's INT city.

Let's also not forget that Cincy probably has the 2nd or 3rd best group of WR's in the league while Pittsburgh will need another year or two to have a good core of WR's (once Holmes matures, if he does).

Also remember that Big Ben played great in the playoffs last year and was remarkable against Denver. He made impossible throws in the first half of that game and was able to step on the Broncos jugular. How can anyone say definitively that he will be a bust? How? Seriously, how can you justify that logic? He had one bad year for understandable circumstances (ie his world went to shit) and everyone wants to crucify the guy. Now if he has a bad year this year than all criticism is valid and we can start having the bust conversation.

Finally, what did Carson do at the end of the season with one win in the last 3 games giving Cincy a playoff spot? They get crushed @Indy with Palmer having a bad game and fumbling 4 times. Then the next week @Denver Palmer throws 2 INT's and has a fumble in a loss. And he ends the season with an inexcusable loss at home to Pittsburgh against a team playing for nothing but pride (granted, he had a good game but you HAVE to win these)

What has Carson proven? Not much What has Ben proven? That he is a tough motherfucker that just wins football games. Case closed. Give me #7 right now and I won't think twice.

 

[Matt24]

Carson folds up like a little bitch when he's hit conversely. .

we had a pretty good discussion going Hines, don't fk it up

 

[dialitup]

Jesus Christ, one bad year and already you vultures all circling over Big Ben. Unbelievable. The guy was an emotional trainwreck this year and was obviously not all there. You know those are the type of things that happen when you have life-changing moments. And maybe Big Ben will never get back to that point where he could avoid any rush and make something happen but with those two years he became the second greatest QB in Steelers history.

The man was able to make plays constantly even with his shitty pass blocking OT's letting their men get by. He was able to stay up long enough just to hit his receiver even with a DE dragging him down. Carson folds up like a little bitch when he's hit conversely. Palmer is a better Vinny Testaverde. If you give him time in the pocket he is great, but if you hit him a couple of times and rattle him it's INT city.

Seems well-reasoned to me. People must not watch the games. Ben's game against Denver was one of the all-time performances...but you had to watch it.

Let's also not forget that Cincy probably has the 2nd or 3rd best group of WR's in the league while Pittsburgh will need another year or two to have a good core of WR's (once Holmes matures, if he does).

Also remember that Big Ben played great in the playoffs last year and was remarkable against Denver. He made impossible throws in the first half of that game and was able to step on the Broncos jugular. How can anyone say definitively that he will be a bust? How? Seriously, how can you justify that logic? He had one bad year for understandable circumstances (ie his world went to shit) and everyone wants to crucify the guy. Now if he has a bad year this year than all criticism is valid and we can start having the bust conversation.

Finally, what did Carson do at the end of the season with one win in the last 3 games giving Cincy a playoff spot? They get crushed @Indy with Palmer having a bad game and fumbling 4 times. Then the next week @Denver Palmer throws 2 INT's and has a fumble in a loss. And he ends the season with an inexcusable loss at home to Pittsburgh against a team playing for nothing but pride (granted, he had a good game but you HAVE to win these)

What has Carson proven? Not much What has Ben proven? That he is a tough motherfucker that just wins football games. Case closed. Give me #7 right now and I won't think twice.

Right on. Ben's game against Denver was an unbelievable performance. Forgotten by those who didn't watch it..I guess.

 

[HinesWard86]

we had a pretty good discussion going Hines, don't fk it up

what, its the truth? might be a harsh and uncouth assessment but still the truth. take carson if you want, ill take the qb who knows how to win.

 

[MrJ]

You gotta win. Some people have it and some people don't

Depends how you define 'better'. You obviously define it as who wins, where as most of us will define it as who is more skillful.

 

[Matt24]

what, its the truth? might be a harsh and uncouth assessment but still the truth. take carson if you want, ill take the qb who knows how to win.

to me it sounded like a direct shot at the hit he took in the playoff game in the steelers which tore apart his knee, and if thats what it is, then yes its a stupid statement which makes no sense. Similar to saying Ben folds up like a little bitch when he wrecks his motorcycle.

Palmer was hit a lot this year and I don't remember him folding up like a little bitch at all, he took shots all year with his repaired knee.

I mean honestly, he got sacked 6 times vs Pitt early in the season and threw 4 TD passes and got the victory. got sacked 4 times vs Clev and threw for 352 yards. He did get sacked 4 times by the Pats also and threw 0 TDs/0 INTs also in that loss and sacked 4 times by the Colts and only threw for 176 yards, but once again zero INTs. Sacked 3 times by Chargers and threw for 440 yards and 3 TDs. so not sure where youre going with that statement, cuz it dont make much sense methinks.


otoh looking at when Ben starts getting sacked a lot, sacked 5 times by the Chargers, he throws 2 picks, no TDs. sacked 4 times by the Broncos he throws 1 TD, 3 INTs, sacked 9 times by the Ravens, he throws zero TDs, 2 INTs, sacked 5 times by Baltimore, he throws 1 TD, 2 INTs. sacked 3 times by the Bengals he goes 18/39 with zero TDs, 3 INTs.


Carson did lose 7 fumbles this year while Ben only lost 2 fumbles

 

[FairWarning]

Palmer is much better. 2007 is a big year for Cinci and Marvin Lewis. They need to step up the defense and running game.

 

[gynecologist]

Rothlisberger is a younger Trent Dilfer. An average QB with a great running game and great defense who was at the right place at the right time. If he was in Houston he'd be worse than David Carr. In Detoroit he'd proabbly be just as bad as Joey Harrington was.

Carson Palmer is a top 5 QB in this league without question.

Agree 100%

BigBen couldn't shine Carson Palmer's shoes. Not even close IMO

 

[slapshot]

if they switched teams the Bengals would be 6-10


Steelers would be the 3 time Super Bowl Champs :toast:


remember its the team the Steelers D helped out a hell of alot not to mentoin the refs


Carson

 

[Cubsmac]

Matt...trent was better then payton if you count Superbowls which is what the NFL fans judge you on

all things even now we KNOW manning is way better he has a ring and much better stats and probably will get more rings in his career

again this is how 99% of the fans judge you in the nfl.. IMO

Think you are highly underestimating the factor fantasy football plays into something like this. While the greats of the greats will be judged on superbowl championships when their playing days are over, current NFL players are no longer judged on championships. They are judged on what have you done for me lately in the Fantasy Football world.

In the last couple years, Carson Palmer has been great, #4 ranked QB in '06 and #1 ranked QB in '05. Rothlisberger at 16 and 14 in the same years. This is what the average fantasy football playing NFL fan will use to judge talent level.

 

[ECS]

if they switched teams the Bengals would be 6-10


Steelers would be the 3 time Super Bowl Champs :toast:


remember its the team the Steelers D helped out a hell of alot not to mentoin the refs


Carson

This I agree with, the bengals would never be talking playoffs with ben as the qb where pitt would be unstoppable :bigfinger