Dr. Bruce Ivins, anthrax scientist was murdered by The CIA

[MichaelScott]

And a good read in the New York Times blog, about another CIA agent who left and ran as fast as he could. It is an interesting article to read because it will help map out how the CIA conducts business, if you try to walk away from them they will do any and everything to destroy your life.

Now the reason I bring this up is because Dr. Frank Olson, another Ft. Detrick Army scientist was thought to have been a scientist by his family, but he was actually a CIA agent in a scientists hat who worked with ARTICHOKE and MKULTRA. It is possible, like Dr. Frank Olson, the CIA wanted Dr. Bruce Ivins gone, as he was a danger to exposing them and their operation. Unfortunately for operation ARTICHOKE, the records were expunged by the CIA prior to the Rockefeller Commission in 1975, so we will never know the truth.

Dr. Bruce Ivins needed to be silenced by the CIA in the same matter because he knew an extremely large amount of information with regard to the anthrax letters case. He quite possibly, suspected they were involved and disclosed this to his "therapist" who then told the CIA and they had him "silenced". Whatever the case is, there is overwhelming historical fact the the CIA could do this, would do this, has done similar things like this, and probably did do this.


Read the below as it is strikingly similar to Dr. Bruce Ivins case.

Dr. Frank Olson's case from Wikipedia:



His family had no idea of the details of the accident until the Rockefeller Commission started uncovering some of the CIA's MKULTRA activities. In 1975, the government admitted that Olson had been dosed with LSD without his knowledge. The government offered his family an out of court settlement of $750,000, which they accepted.
In 1994, Eric Olson had his father's body exhumed. The forensic scientist in charge of the examination, George Washington University professor James E. Starrs, determined that Olson had suffered some form of blunt force trauma to the temple/ forehead prior to falling out of the broken window, but contrarily had no visible laceration indicating that he fell through a broken window. The evidence was called "rankly and starkly suggestive of homicide". Based on his findings, in 1996 the Manhattan district attorney opened a homicide investigation into Olson's death, but was unable to find enough evidence to bring charges.


So, it is quite possible, The CIA is expunging all records or has expunged all records, of Dr. Bruce Ivins.

 

[nimue77]

Here is the info on tylenol w/codeine overdose

Following an acute overdosage, toxicity may result from codeine or acetaminophen. Signs and Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness. Convulsions may occur.
Acetaminophen: in acetaminophen overdosage: dose-dependent, potentially fatal hepatic necrosis is the most serious adverse effect. Renal tubular necrosis, hypoglycemic coma and thrombocytopenia may also occur.
Early symptoms following a potentially hepatotoxic overdose may include: nausea, vomiting, diaphoresis and general malaise. Clinical and laboratory evidence of hepatic toxicity may not be apparent until 48 to 72 hours post-ingestion.
In adults hepatic toxicity has rarely been reported with acute overdoses of less than 10 grams, or fatalities with less than 15 grams.
Treatment: A single or multiple overdose with acetaminophen and codeine is a potentially lethal polydrug overdose, and consultation with a regional poison control center is recommended.
Immediate treatment includes support of cardiorespiratory function and measures to reduce drug absorption. Vomiting should be induced mechanically, or with syrup of ipecac, if the patient is alert (adequate pharyngeal and laryngeal reflexes). Oral activated charcoal (1 g/kg) should follow gastric emptying. The first dose should be accompanied by an appropriate cathartic. If repeated doses are used, the cathartic might be included with alternate doses as required. Hypotension is usually hypovolemic and should respond to fluids. Vasopressors and other supportive measures should be employed as indicated. A cuffed endo-tracheal tube should be inserted before gastric lavage of the unconscious patient and, when necessary, to provide assisted respiration.
Meticulous attention should be given to maintaining adequate pulmonary ventilation. In severe cases of intoxication, peritoneal dialysis, or preferably hemodialysis may be considered. If hypoprothrombinemia occurs due to acetaminophen overdose, vitamin K should be administered intravenously.
Naloxone, a narcotic antagonist, can reverse respiratory depression and coma associated with opioid overdose. Naloxone hydrochloride 0.4 mg to 2 mg is given parenterally. Since the duration of action of codeine may exceed that of the naloxone, the patient should be kept under continuous surveillance and repeated doses of the antagonist should be administered as needed to maintain adequate respiration. A narcotic antagonist should not be administered in the absence of clinically significant respiratory or cardiovascular depression.
If the dose of acetaminophen may have exceeded 140 mg/kg. acetylcysteine should be administered as early as possible. Serum acetaminophen levels should be obtained, since levels four or more hours following ingestion help predict acetaminophen toxicity. Do not await acetaminophen assay results before initiating treatment. Hepatic enzymes should be obtained initially, and repeated at 24-hour intervals.
Methemoglobinemia over 30% should be treated with methylene blue by slow intravenous administration.
Toxic Doses (for adults):


<dd>Acetaminophen: toxic dose 10 g
</dd><dd>Codeine: toxic dose 240 mg</dd>

 

[JoeContrarian]

JoeContrarian, fourth time you have gone off-topic.

Sir, I am not going "off-topic." I am responding to your growing list of fraudulent statements and exposing you for what you are: the Rx's Joe Wilson.

I know you want us to believe you are some objective voice of reason in search of the truth. The fact is, your personal views (that the CIA launched the anthrax attacks to garner public support for war, for example) are about as kooky and far left Code Pink as you can get. uke1:

If you do not wish other posters to take issue with your flabbergasting barrage of untruths then STOP TYPING THEM!

 

[Mistermj]

Are you disputing the information on this website:?

http://www.drug-overdose.com/codeine.htm

[FONT=Arial,Verdana]Codeine is a member of the drug class opiates. Opiates include all naturally occurring drugs with morphine-like effects such as codeine and all semi and fully synthetic drugs with morphine-like effects such as heroin and meperidine (Demerol). Codeine can be administered orally (PO), subcutaneously (SC), intramuscularly (IM) and rectally (PR). Codeine cannot be safely administered by an intravenous (IV) injection as it may result in pulmonary oedema, facial swelling, dangerous release of histamines, and various cardiovascular effects. It cannot be administered intranasally (snorting). Codeine free base can be smoked on the aluminum foil ("chasing the dragon") similarly to smoking heroin. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana]Codeine can be found in many medications such as Tylenol #3, Actifed with Codeine, Robitussin A-C, and Empirin #3 for example. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana]Symptoms of a Codeine overdose include:

• muscle spasticity
• slow and labored breathing
• shallow breathing
• loss of breath
• pinpoint pupils
• bluish colored - fingernails and lips
• skin itching
• spasms of stomach and/or intestinal tract
• constipation
• weak pulse
• low blood pressure

I think you are mistaking normal use for overdose. I don't think the military intentionally overdoses it's soldiers on Codeine.[/FONT]

It's a copy and paste directly from your post!

codeine and all semi and fully synthetic drugs with morphine-like effects such as heroin

 

[MichaelScott]

Sir, I am not going "off-topic." I am responding to your growing list of fraudulent statements and exposing you for what you are: the Rx's Joe Wilson.

I know you want us to believe you are some objective voice of reason in search of the truth. The fact is, your views (that the CIA launched a "false' flag" operation to garner public support for the wars) are about as kooky and far left Code Pink as you can get. uke1:

If you do not wish other posters to take issue with your flabbergasting barrage of untruths then STOP TYPING THEM!

Fifth time you have failed to successfully prove your argument or provide a source of how it is completely impossible for The CIA to have killed Dr. Bruce Ivins. You don't provide sources. Like a term paper, I want this discussion to have facts and historical accounts submitted for debate. So your comments are thrown out of this debate as they are irrelevant. I refuse to let someone with a political agenda, to destroy a thread that I wish to keep as an intellectual debate proven with facts and historical accounts.


Did you even read any of the links provided in Post #81? Or are you going to continue hijacking this thread? All I am asking is for you to read, and debate after doing so by providing some source to back your conclusion up.

 

[Mistermj]

Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness

Not much pain involved when you lose consciousness is there?

 

[MichaelScott]

It's a copy and paste directly from your post!

codeine and all semi and fully synthetic drugs with morphine-like effects such as heroin

Good argument, it is a start. Then what we need to do rather than say an opinionated response of "soldier are given morphine to get rid of pain when injured in the battled field" is to back your statement up with a SOURCE that says, "A person will feel absolutely no stomach pain when overdosing on Tylenol and Codeine". The current official word is that "Dr. Bruce Ivins killed himself with Tylenol and Codeine".

You have to have sources and facts to make your argument valid. Just being an ex-heroin addict or hearing it from someone, dos not provide grounds for being true.

So, please submit the source that states, "A person will feel absolutely no stomach pain when overdosing on Tylenol and Codeine". Otherwise your rebuttal in incomplete and will not be counted as a valid response.

 

[Mistermj]

Good argument, it is a start. Then what we need to do rather than say an opinionated response of "soldier are given morphine to get rid of pain when injured in the battled field" is to back your statement up with a SOURCE that says, "A person will feel absolutely no stomach pain when overdosing on Tylenol and Codeine". The current official word is that "Dr. Bruce Ivins killed himself with Tylenol and Codeine".

You have to have sources and facts to make your argument valid. Just being an ex-heroin addict or hearing it from someone, dos not provide grounds for being true.

So, please submit the source that states, "A person will feel absolutely no stomach pain when overdosing on Tylenol and Codeine". Otherwise your rebuttal in incomplete and will not be counted as a valid response.

I'm using the source provided by nimue77

And it says...Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness

How much do you"feel" when you are unconscious? :nohead:

 

[MichaelScott]

Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness

Not much pain involved when you lose consciousness is there?

The official word from news sources is he died of an overdose from Tylenol and Codeine. What type of Tylenol is unknown to me.

Also, please provide links to all your sources. Copying and Pasting discredits your rebuttal. Even if someone posted the link before your reply, quote that source, please.


Here is an example:

NPR states that he died from "prescription drugs, one said to be Codeine."


Wikipedia states his official death was from "Tylenol and Codeine".

 

[tiznow]

found this on codeine on some other forum

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=361797

"There is a ceiling with Codeine. Any health issues related to codeine would not be respiratory like with other opiates/opioids, but due to liver toxicity.

If you overdose on Codeine, it will be extremely painful as your insides suffer severe failure. This is contrasted to other opiates/opioids, where death occurs when one is knocked out and stops breathing because they're CNS is so depressed.

Codeine has a ceiling making it ineffective after a certain range - 400 mg, as another poster said.

It would be a very painful death and you won't go unconscious, unless you are extremely naive to opiates."

RE:

Codeine doesn't cause liver damage at all. Your liver just won't have enough cyp 2d6 enzyme left to metabolize it into morphine after you reach around the 450mg mark (this varies of course) so the rest will be metabolized through other pathways. It won't actually cause liver damage like taking too much acetaminophen for your liver to handle.

A death from codeine overdose would be rather painful though. You would more then likely have seizures, you would have itching like nothing else on earth and probably a rash due to massive histamine release then you would eventually die a slow death from respiratory depression. It's not like where you see in the movies where someone dies instantly and painlessly it can take hours. Thats why they never give opiates to people for assisted suicide.

 

[MichaelScott]

I'm using the source provided by nimue77

And it says...Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness

How much do you"feel" when you are unconscious? :nohead:

I can accept that as a valid argument. I still feel when I am unconscious, but yes I am not aware.

But see my previous post, it was not just codeine. It was Tylenol and Codeine. So now we must find a source that shows, "Does Tylenol and Codeine cause any sort of pain prior to death as an overdose method for suicide?"

 

[MichaelScott]

found this on codeine on some other forum

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=361797

"There is a ceiling with Codeine. Any health issues related to codeine would not be respiratory like with other opiates/opioids, but due to liver toxicity.

If you overdose on Codeine, it will be extremely painful as your insides suffer severe failure. This is contrasted to other opiates/opioids, where death occurs when one is knocked out and stops breathing because they're CNS is so depressed.

Codeine has a ceiling making it ineffective after a certain range - 400 mg, as another poster said.

It would be a very painful death and you won't go unconscious, unless you are extremely naive to opiates."

RE:

Codeine doesn't cause liver damage at all. Your liver just won't have enough cyp 2d6 enzyme left to metabolize it into morphine after you reach around the 450mg mark (this varies of course) so the rest will be metabolized through other pathways. It won't actually cause liver damage like taking too much acetaminophen for your liver to handle.

A death from codeine overdose would be rather painful though. You would more then likely have seizures, you would have itching like nothing else on earth and probably a rash due to massive histamine release then you would eventually die a slow death from respiratory depression. It's not like where you see in the movies where someone dies instantly and painlessly it can take hours. Thats why they never give opiates to people for assisted suicide.

Tiz,

I want to accept this as a valid. And the material is believable that you are arguing. But because the source comes from a forum and a forum with a .ru (Russia) domain extension, I don't want to credit this into the argument.

It doesn't really matter though, because we still have to argue what the two drugs COMBINED do, not just codeine itself.

You see, if the codeine was mixed with the type of Tylenol (Tylenol#3, posted by Nimue77 in an earlier post) then it would have acetimetaphin, which would cause liver failure in high doses, as your source states.

Good leads fellas. Thanks for staying on topic.

 

[nimue77]

Symptoms:
Codeine: Toxicity from codeine poisoning includes the opioid triad of: pinpoint pupils, depression of respiration, and loss of consciousness

Not much pain involved when you lose consciousness is there?

You skipped convulsions. :lolBIG:

Besides, this guy supposedly died from tylenol w/codeine and that is what this discussion is all about.

 

[JoeContrarian]

Fifth time you have failed to successfully prove your argument or provide a source of how it is completely impossible for The CIA to have killed Dr. Bruce Ivins.

Nothing is impossible. I suppose UFOs could exist, though I have never seen one.

The fact is, we're debating a theory that YOU believe as FACT.

You sir need to provide the extraordinary evidence to validate the extraordinary claims you are making -- and so far your posts have not even come close to living up to YOUR OWN high standards.

Moreover, you continue to make reckless statements on somewhat unrelated issues smearing the CIA and the Bush administration which makes it easy to identify your agenda and your personal biased beliefs.

You think the government used the anthrax attacks as a "false flag" operation to go to war. After all, this is the same government that "lied" about yellowcake in Niger. Oops, except the government never 'lied' about Iraqi agents who sought to purchase large quantities of uranium in Africa. So there's another bust to Michael Scott's "Key to All Mythologies."

For those who are a bit dense, let me just reiterate:

If these ancillary points are so "irrelevant" and so "distracting" to the topic at hand, STOP BRINGING THEM INTO THE CONVERSATION AS A MEANS OF GIVING SUPPORT TO YOUR OWN KOOKY THEORIES!

Otherwise you risk professional gotcha artists like me doing what we do best.

Have a nice day, kook.

:howdy:

 

[tiznow]

tylenol #3 i has codeine in it...if i'm reading this right

if he overdosed on this its probably just one drug/type of pill tylenol #3

that contains both acetaminophin and codeine

and no mention of unconsciousness in the symptoms below....doesn't sound like alot of fun

---------------------------

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) and codeine is a prescription pain medicine. It is a narcotic, which means it has the potential to relieve pain while making you feel sleepy.

Acetaminophen and codeine overdose occurs when someone accidentally or intentionally takes more than the normal or recommended amount of this medication.

See also:

* Acetaminophen overdose
* Codeine overdose
* Hydrocodone and acetaminophen overdose

Alternative Names
Tylenol # 3 overdose;Phenaphen with codeine overdose; Tylenol with codeine overdose
Poisonous Ingredient

Acetaminophen combined with codeine
Where Found

Acetaminophen with codeine is commonly sold under the name Tylenol #3.
Symptoms

* Airways and lungs
o Breathing shallow
o Breathing slow and labored
o Respiratory arrest
* Eyes, ears, nose, and throat
o Pinpoint pupils
* Heart and blood vessels
o Low blood pressure
* Nervous system
o Coma
o Convulsions
o Drowsiness
o Stupor (lack of alertness)
* Skin
o Bluish skin (fingernails and lips)
o Cold, clammy skin
o Heavy sweating
* Stomach and intestines
o Spasms of the stomach and intestines
o Vomiting
o Kidney and liver failure

Home Care

Seek immediate medical help. This type of overdose can cause death. DO NOT make a person throw up unless told to do so by Poison Control or a health care professional.
Before Calling Emergency

Determine the following information:

* Patient's age, weight, and condition
* Name of the product (as well as the ingredients and strength, if known)
* Time it was swallowed
* Amount swallowed
* If the medication was prescribed for the patient

Poison Control

The National Poison Control Center (1-800-222-1222) can be called from anywhere in the United States. This national hotline number will let you talk to experts in poisoning. They will give you further instructions.

This is a free and confidential service. All local poison control centers in the United States use this national number. You should call if you have any questions about poisoning or poison prevention. It does NOT need to be an emergency. You can call for any reason, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Take the container with you to the hospital, if possible.

See: Poison control center - emergency number
What to Expect at the Emergency Room

The health care provider will measure and monitor the patient's vital signs, including temperature, pulse, breathing rate, and blood pressure. Symptoms will be treated as appropriate. The patient may be admitted to the hospital and may receive:

* Activated charcoal
* Breathing support (artificial respiration)
* Fluids by IV
* Medicine (antidote) called naloxone to reverse the effect of the poison (multiple doses may be needed)
* Tube thru the mouth into the stomach to empty the stomach (gastric lavage)

If there is a high level of acetaminophen in the blood, the patient will be given N-Acetyl cysteine. Without this counteracting drug, called an antidote, deadly liver failure will occur.
Outlook (Prognosis)

If an antidote can be given, recovery from an acute overdose often occurs within 24-48 hours.

---------------------------

 

[MichaelScott]

You skipped convulsions. :lolBIG:

Besides, this guy supposedly died from tylenol w/codeine and that is what this discussion is all about.

Part of the discussion. The discussion is about The CIA killed Dr. Bruce Ivins. We branched a little into what pain he may have endured for a few days before he actually died "if" he committed suicide.

Like I stated earlier, once the information warfare agents at the CIA start reading what people are talking about on the internet, they will give "cookies" to news agencies to report some "new breaking news" of how he died from another medication or some other evidence they claim to be true. The point is, the second coroner in Los Angeles has not made a conclusion on how he died (I believe, I will need to find the source for that) and so it is inclusive exactly how he died as of now, if in fact we are waiting on that second coroner report.

I wish to focus more of why he died now, the motive for him doing this as the media is saying. Not just how he died. The media states he died because he was the "perp" who mailed out the letters. I am not convinced of that.

 

[MichaelScott]

Nothing is impossible. I suppose UFOs could exist, though I have never seen one.

You are getting even more off topic.

No distractions. Prove to us that Dr. Bruce had the motive and means to do this. And that The CIA did not kill Dr. Bruce Ivins.

Remember, use sources.

 

[tiznow]

The fact is, we're debating a theory that YOU believe as FACT.

give it a rest with the nonsense he doesn't believe its fact

well maybe he does or he's just leaning the probability towards the CIA offed him direction at this point in time i dunno

but from my vantage point he's just trying to dig up the facts surrounding the case

your the one turning this into a name calling event to deflect from discussion of the topic at hand

 

[Mistermj]

You skipped convulsions. :lolBIG:

Besides, this guy supposedly died from tylenol w/codeine and that is what this discussion is all about.

I didn't say he didn't have convulsions...do you know if he had convulsions?

The discussion was about the CIA must have knocked him off because his suicide would have been too painful.

I've just shown....(using your own source) that he may have been unconscious.

Bottom line...you don't know and neither do I...which is hardly an argument for a conspiracy.

 

[MichaelScott]

give it a rest with the nonsense he doesn't believe its fact he's just trying to understand the facts surrounding the case

your the one turning this into a name calling event to deflect from discussion of the topic at hand

Precisely. He thinks I am a nut, let him think what he wants. He is just like the media, distracting Americans from the truth. Just leave him alone, don't respond to his distracting posts. This is a great debate and I am enjoying both sides to the argument. So far those saying Dr. Bruce Ivins was murdered by the CIA or at least question it, those opposed to it have provided no facts or sources. The funny thing is, all you have to do is go to the front page of a news agency and copy and paste it here, because they are all saying he committed suicide, but JoeContrarian can't do that, he wants us distratcted from an intellectual debate.

If you have a counter argument folks, all I ask is to provide your argument an a source. Not too hard at all.