Craig Biggio 2,942 hits and counting...future HOF...YES

[Journeyman]

You guys coming down on Biggio are way off base...he has tremendous career numbers.

Okay remember, he also started his career at catcher,he he has almost 300 HR's, he will be over 1800 career runs scored, that is way up there in the high rent district...over 400 SBs! He is the all time HBP leader too, is closing in on 650+ doubles...he's been a very durable player too, this is a lock, no brainer!

 

[WVU]

Biggio is definitely in. Bagwell will need a miracle

 

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Hopefully he'll be the player on which the HOF voters step up and eliminate the magical 3,000 mark and deny him entry. He's been a decent to very good player for a long time but the HOF is for superstars and he's far from it. Here's hoping Steve Finley doesn't get in; that would be as big a farce as Mazeroski.

 

[Journeyman]

Steve Finley has no chance.

 

[Journeyman]

I remember a debate about 7-8 yrs ago on the radio regarding Biggio and Alomar, of course Alomar was a better player at his peak, but his work ethic was awful and it showed in the end... I remember thinking 'no way Biggio goes over Alomar' , and now look at them....I never would have expected Biggio to play this long , this well....You can't deny him though, he's piled up some very impressve career totals..

Alomar was done very early...he looked like a shoe in for 3000 hits and he didn't come close....In some cases it's unfortunate the HOF rewards more for longevity than true greatness.

Alomar was a money player though, and a great defensive player... Biggio never did much in the post season either....ironically Biggio may be the only one of the two getting in.

 

[VIEJODINOSAUR]

Too bad Jim Rice made some voters angry....Biggio will be a Hall of Famer and I believe the fact that if Rice were white, he would have been elected already....this is just my opinon and I know I just bought in the race card, but this is what I truely believe.....

 

[Birdman]

Too bad Jim Rice made some voters angry....Biggio will be a Hall of Famer and I believe the fact that if Rice were white, he would have been elected already....this is just my opinon and I know I just bought in the race card, but this is what I truely believe.....

agree. he was the feared hitter of the Red Sox powerhouse teams.

 

[fhmesq44]

Alomar was done very early...he looked like a shoe in for 3000 hits and he didn't come close....In some cases it's unfortunate the HOF rewards more for longevity than true greatness.

Is a HUGE problem with HOF voting, longevity matters too much. Biggio was never even the best player at his own position, probably wasn't top 2 in very many seasons. When Don Sutton got into the hall I had a conversation with a well respected sports reporter. A writer for the LA Times and a producer on ESPN, now writes for mlb.com. He had a hall vote and he gave me the best answer anyone has given on these marginal guys that pile up stats by playing forever. He said, "there are different kinds of greatness, there is winning 15 games for 20 seasons and there is Sandy Koufax greatness." It makes sense although didn't change my mind about Sutton and it won't change my mind about Biggio. It is a bunch of crap that he will get in and Alomar may not and Alomar was a far superior player in literally every aspect of the game.

 

[maxdemo]

You guys coming down on Biggio are way off base...he has tremendous career numbers.

Okay remember, he also started his career at catcher,he he has almost 300 HR's, he will be over 1800 career runs scored, that is way up there in the high rent district...over 400 SBs! He is the all time HBP leader too, is closing in on 650+ doubles...he's been a very durable player too, this is a lock, no brainer!

Agreed 100%...the guy is what the HOF is all about. He is a small guy in size that put up some big numbers.

Height 5' 11", Weight 180 lb.

Thats small for a guy that has put up the number of doubles in his career. The HOF IMO is a place for not only great players but players that were above and beyond average. Alomar had some great seasons but faded so fast at the end you forgot about him so quick....Biggio just keeps on chugging along.


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=625 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=#FFFFFF colSpan=2><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=613 border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD class="textSm grey" colSpan=18>Hitting Stats:</TD><TD class="textSm grey" align=right colSpan=17>Next Stats >></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD colSpan=18>

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</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>SEASON</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

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</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>2B</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

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</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>HR</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

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</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>BB</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>SO</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>SB</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>CS</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>OBP</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>SLG</TD><TD rowSpan=99>

</TD><TD class="text primary" noWrap align=middle bgColor=#cccccc>AVG</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1988</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>50</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>123</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>14</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>26</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>5</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>43</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>7</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>29</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.254</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.350</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.211</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1989</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>134</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>443</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>64</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>114</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>21</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>13</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>60</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>178</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>49</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>64</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>21</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.336</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.402</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.257</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1990</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>150</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>555</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>53</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>153</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>24</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>42</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>193</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>53</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>79</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>25</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>11</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.342</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.348</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.276</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1991</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>149</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>546</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>79</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>161</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>23</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>46</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>204</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>53</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>71</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>19</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.358</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.374</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.295</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1992</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>162</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>613</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>96</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>170</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>32</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>39</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>226</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>94</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>95</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>38</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>15</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.378</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.369</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.277</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1993</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>155</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>610</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>98</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>175</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>41</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>5</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>21</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>64</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>289</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>77</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>93</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>15</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>17</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.373</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.474</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.287</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1994</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>114</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>437</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>88</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>139</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>44</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>5</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>56</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>211</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>62</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>58</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>39</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.411</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.483</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.318</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1995</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>141</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>553</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>123</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>167</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>30</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>22</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>77</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>267</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>80</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>85</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>33</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>8</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.406</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.483</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.302</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1996</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>162</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>605</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>113</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>174</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>24</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>15</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>75</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>251</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>75</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>72</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>25</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>7</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.386</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.415</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.288</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1997</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>162</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>619</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>146</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>191</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>37</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>8</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>22</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>81</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>310</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>84</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>107</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>47</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>10</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.415</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.501</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.309</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1998</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>160</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>646</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>123</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>210</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>51</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>20</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>88</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>325</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>64</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>113</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>50</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>8</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.403</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.503</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.325</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1999</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>160</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>639</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>123</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>188</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>56</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>16</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>73</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>292</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>88</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>107</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>28</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>14</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.386</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.457</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.294</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2000</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>101</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>377</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>67</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>101</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>13</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>5</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>8</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>35</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>148</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>61</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>73</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>12</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.388</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.393</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.268</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2001</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>155</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>617</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>118</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>180</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>35</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>20</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>70</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>281</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>66</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>100</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>7</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.382</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.455</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.292</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2002</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>145</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>577</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>96</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>146</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>36</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>15</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>58</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>233</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>50</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>111</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>16</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.330</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.404</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.253</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2003</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>153</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>628</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>102</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>166</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>44</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>15</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>62</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>259</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>57</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>116</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>8</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.350</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.412</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.264</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2004</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>156</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>633</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>100</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>178</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>47</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>24</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>63</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>297</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>40</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>94</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>7</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.337</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.469</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.281</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2005</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>155</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>590</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>94</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>156</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>40</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>26</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>69</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>276</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>37</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>90</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>11</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.325</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.468</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.264</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2006</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>145</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>548</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>79</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>135</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>33</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>21</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>62</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>231</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>40</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>84</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>3</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.306</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.422</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.246</TD></TR><TR><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2007</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=left>Houston Astros</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>12</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>54</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>6</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>14</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>5</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>22</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>11</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>0</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.273</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.407</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.259</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD colSpan=35>

</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD class="text primary" colSpan=4>

Career Totals</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2721</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>10413</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1782</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>2944</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>642</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>52</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>282</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1129</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>4536</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1137</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>1652</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>410</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>121</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.366</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.436</TD><TD class=textSm noWrap align=middle>.283</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD bgColor=#ffffff>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[fhmesq44]

Max,

So you prefer someone who is "above and beyond average" for 20 years to someone who was great for 14? Alomar admittedly dropped off the face of the earth, but he was ROY in 88 and 4th in MVP in 01. We aren't talking about a guy that was really good for 5-7 years. he won 10 gold gloves in 11 years. Alomar was 5 times in the top 6 in MVP, Biggio only twice.

While Biggio should get credit for his continued "above average-ness", his stats pale in comparison to Alomar's for their first 14 years. Alomar still has more RBIs and SBs. How many guys are actually great for longer than 14 years? Should we really put that much weight on a guy sticking around and being average to pump up their stats when it comes to HOF voting?


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1988 20 SDP NL 143 545 84 145 24 6 9 41 24 6 47 83 .266 .328 .382 106 208 16 0 5 3 15 RoY-5
1989 21 SDP NL 158 623 82 184 27 1 7 56 42 17 53 76 .295 .347 .376 107 234 17 8 4 1 10
1990 22 SDP NL 147 586 80 168 27 5 6 60 24 7 48 72 .287 .340 .381 98 223 5 5 1 2 16 AS
1991 23 TOR AL 161 637 88 188 41 11 9 69 53 11 57 86 .295 .354 .436 115 278 16 5 3 4 5 MVP-6,AS
1992 24 TOR AL 152 571 105 177 27 8 8 76 49 9 87 52 .310 .405 .427 129 244 6 2 5 5 8 SS,MVP-6,AS
1993 25 TOR AL 153 589 109 192 35 6 17 93 55 15 80 67 .326 .408 .492 140 290 4 5 5 5 13 MVP-6,AS
1994 26 TOR AL 107 392 78 120 25 4 8 38 19 8 51 41 .306 .386 .452 116 177 7 3 2 2 14 AS
1995 27 TOR AL 130 517 71 155 24 7 13 66 30 3 47 45 .300 .354 .449 108 232 6 7 3 0 16 AS
1996 28 BAL AL 153 588 132 193 43 4 22 94 17 6 90 65 .328 .411 .527 137 310 8 12 10 1 14 SS,MVP-20,AS
1997 29 BAL AL 112 412 64 137 23 2 14 60 9 3 40 43 .333 .390 .500 134 206 7 7 2 3 10 MVP-22,AS
1998 30 BAL AL 147 588 86 166 36 1 14 56 18 5 59 70 .282 .347 .418 100 246 3 5 3 2 11 AS
1999 31 CLE AL 159 563 138 182 40 3 24 120 37 6 99 96 .323 .422 .533 140 300 12 13 3 7 13 SS,MVP-3,AS
2000 32 CLE AL 155 610 111 189 40 2 19 89 39 4 64 82 .310 .378 .475 113 290 11 6 4 6 19 SS,AS
2001 33 CLE AL 157 575 113 193 34 12 20 100 30 6 80 71 .336 .415 .541 149 311 9 9 5 4 9 MVP-4,AS
2002 34 NYM NL 149 590 73 157 24 4 11 53 16 4 57 83 .266 .331 .376 91 222 6 1 4 1 12
2003 35 TOT 140 516 76 133 28 2 5 39 12 2 59 77 .258 .333 .349 81 180 12 8 3 3 17
NYM NL 73 263 34 69 17 1 2 22 6 0 29 40 .262 .336 .357 82 94 4 4 2 2 8
CHW AL 67 253 42 64 11 1 3 17 6 2 30 37 .253 .330 .340 79 86 8 4 1 1 9
2004 36 TOT 56 171 18 45 6 2 4 24 0 2 14 31 .263 .321 .392 81 67 3 1 0 1 4
ARI NL 38 110 14 34 5 2 3 16 0 2 12 18 .309 .382 .473 117 52 2 0 0 1 2
CHW AL 18 61 4 11 1 0 1 8 0 0 2 13 .180 .203 .246 13 15 1 1 0 0 2
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
17 Seasons 9073 2724 80 1134 114 1140 .300 .371 .443 116 148 97 62 50 206</pre>

 

[WVU]

Alamar spits on umpires. Biggio does not.

 

[fhmesq44]

Alamar spits on umpires. Biggio does not.

yeah, but that is another issue. that certainly may impact his voting.

 

[Journeyman]

yeah, but that is another issue. that certainly may impact his voting.

You act like Biggio was an average player for 20 years and just so happened to stroll into 3000 hits 650 doubles, 1800 runs, 300 home runs,400 SB, all time HBP record, versatile player, .283 career avg is very solid .

How many guys in baseball history have 3000 hits 400 SB and 300 homeruns?

 

[Journeyman]

I think Alomar and Biggio are both going into the HOF....Alomar did fall off the table but he did some amazing things and played into his mid 30's, close to 3000 hits all those gold gloves, probably the best fielder ever to play 2b, great base stealer, he had power, he had clutch hits, WS rings...

The only thing he did not do to ensure his HOF enshrinement IMO was reach 3000 hits, I don't think that's going to keep him out.

 

[fhmesq44]

You act like Biggio was an average player for 20 years and just so happened to stroll into 3000 hits 650 doubles, 1800 runs, 300 home runs,400 SB, all time HBP record, versatile player, .283 career avg is very solid .

How many guys in baseball history have 3000 hits 400 SB and 300 homeruns?

If I implied that, it isn't what I meant. I used the term "above average" b/c Max used it. My opinion of Biggio was in my first post:

However, while he has a VERY consistent and had a long quality career, I have a hard time considering him one of the all time great players.

IMO, he was very good for a very long time and people confuse/equate very good for a long time as great. I do not think Biggio was a great player and no stats will change that opinion. everyone has their subjective definition of greatness and mine generally does not include very good for a very long period of time. Niekro, Perry, Sutton, Blyleven, Tommy John, Julio Franco, Harold Baines, Bill Buckner, Steve Finley, those guys aren't great but they all accumulated stats that arguably make them HOF and some are in. To me, Biggio fits into that class of player and I wouldn't vote any of them in. That said, he will get in.

 

[themanej2001]

How can anyone say no?

He is going to finish his career with 3000 hits.
300 HR's
400 SB's
4 GG's

The guy was one of the best second basemen of all time. Consistency and longevity are a part of the game. If you can maintain those two things over an extended period of time you should not be punished.

I can't believe that someone wouldn't think he is a shoe in. He is one of the best all around second basemen ever.

 

[fhmesq44]

I know he is a shoe-in. But there is a flip side to every coin

He was a defensive liability for the last 8-10 years of his career.
At no point was he the best 2B in baseball and may never have been top 2.
He was a .283 career hitter and only broke .300 4 times in 20+ seasons.
He drove in 80 runs only twice
He only once had more than 190 hits
He struck out 1600+ times and will likely end his career in the top 15 (he is currently 20th) - that is awful for a non-power hitter.

Look at the players he is most statistically similar to at various ages of his career and ask yourself how many are even remotely close to HOF status

# J.J. Hardy (989) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Bernie Allen (976) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Rafael Ramirez (979) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# B.J. Surhoff (968) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (962) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (960) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (943) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (963) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (927) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (920) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (887) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Lou Whitaker (869) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

Like I said, he will get in, but he was nothing more than very good for a very long time and if that fits one's definition of greatness, so be it.

 

[Journeyman]

I know he is a shoe-in. But there is a flip side to every coin

He was a defensive liability for the last 8-10 years of his career.
At no point was he the best 2B in baseball and may never have been top 2.
He was a .283 career hitter and only broke .300 4 times in 20+ seasons.
He drove in 80 runs only twice
He only once had more than 190 hits
He struck out 1600+ times and will likely end his career in the top 15 (he is currently 20th) - that is awful for a non-power hitter.

Look at the players he is most statistically similar to at various ages of his career and ask yourself how many are even remotely close to HOF status

# J.J. Hardy (989) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Bernie Allen (976) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Rafael Ramirez (979) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# B.J. Surhoff (968) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (962) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (960) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Jay Bell (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (943) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (963) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (927) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Ray Durham (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (920) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Alan Trammell (887) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
# Lou Whitaker (869) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

Like I said, he will get in, but he was nothing more than very good for a very long time and if that fits one's definition of greatness, so be it.

You can look at greatness in many different ways...who's to say 162 games (1 season) is a better barometer than 20 seasons? Doesn't it all comes downto where you finish your career?

What is more important, a guy who averages 200 hits for 4-5 years and has a solid 10 year career, or a guy who does 10% less for 20 years?

Is a couple really great years more significant than say 20 years that add up to more stats? Why not a couple great months than?

Longevity means more, in my opinion when we'e talking about the HOF.

Guys like Albert Belle, Hack Wilson, Kevin Mitchell, George Foster, Jack Chesbro, Denny Mclain, all were great great players at some points in their careers, but couldn't maintain that level for 20 years....I think sustaining it for an entire 18-20 year span is more impressive.

 

[themanej2001]

You can look at greatness in many different ways...who's to say 162 games (1 season) is a better barometer than 20 seasons? Doesn't it all comes downto where you finish your career?

What is more important, a guy who averages 200 hits for 4-5 years and has a solid 10 year career, or a guy who does 10% less for 20 years?

Is a couple really great years more significant than say 20 years that add up to more stats? Why not a couple great months than?

Longevity means more, in my opinion when we'e talking about the HOF.

Guys like Albert Belle, Hack Wilson, Kevin Mitchell, George Foster, Jack Chesbro, Denny Mclain, all were great great players at some points in their careers, but couldn't maintain that level for 20 years....I think sustaining it for an entire 18-20 year span is more impressive.

You forgot Juan Gonzalez

 

[Journeyman]

You forgot Juan Gonzalez

Well there are many, Juan Gonzalez' problem he couldn't stay healthy, he would be right there...he was a very similar player as Manny Ramirez before breaking down .