Barry Bonds, is there any doubt he will still catch Hank? Nope , none! (2005)

[Journeyman]

I think what Aaron did is even more amazing now...we have seen what it takes to reach 700 homers, and he still needs two more good seasons.

Aaron did it, in the most difficult time to hit home runs...the parks were huge, it was before players made a ton of money, double headers, less teams, talent pool was deeper within each team, because there was less teams.

Aaron and Mays played when you had to crush a ball to reach the power alleys 370-380 , 420 430 to center.

And Aaron weighed 185 lbs....if anyone is really underrated it is Hank Aaron...he still gets overlooked, people jump right to Ruth, he's always been the other guy, even playing second or third fiddle to Mantle and Mays.

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah, but once again I think you're missing the key word...

"Let's see Ruth and Aaron hit 700+ homeruns vs. guys throwing 96MPH EVERY GAME."

Like I said, not saying they can't hit 96MPH. I'm sure they'd go big fly and still be considered great players. They just didnt face it every game. Every now and then you'd face a Nolan Ryan, or a Walter Johnson and it was like the ultimate challenge as a hitter.

Today, you face these guys every game. They may not be throwing 100MPH, but damn there are just so many guys throwing low to mid 90's. Guys in the pen throwing crazy velocities. It's not normal. Yes, human performance, strength and conditioning has evolved. Baseball is now a year round sports no matter what age and it should naturally increase velocity. But that should only mean you expect to see more 90 MPH throwers. Not 94-96. I can count the hard throwers of past eras on my fingers. I need a notebook to write down guys in the bigs throwing mid 90's.

The parks were so much bigger in the 50's 60's and 70's.

 

[blueedwards]

willie was ugly but, vince coleman gave him a run for the money

 

[blueedwards]

 

[Boxslayer]

Blue,

You can count the guy's on one hand that can throw 96 or higher in todays game? Here's just a couple hard throwers...I wont even get into some of the other guys, and Dominicans, and minor leagues....

Brad Lidge - 92-97 MPH, slider is 89MPH. LOL. Hit that Ruth.
Joe Nathan - 92-97MPH, curve 77-78, slider 85-88.
Billy Wagner - 96-100MPH
Mariano Rivera - 91-95 MPH CUTTER!
Scott Shields 88-94MPH
Gagne
Jenks
K-Rod
Benitez
BJ Ryan
Cordero

AJ Burnett
Clemens
Beckett
Big Unit
Cabrera


They have to teach pitchers to cut back on velocity to 94-95 to get more movement instead of throwing 97 straight as an arrow. LOL.

 

[Boxslayer]

I think what Aaron did is even more amazing now...we have seen what it takes to reach 700 homers, and he still needs two more good seasons.

Aaron did it, in the most difficult time to hit home runs...the parks were huge, it was before players made a ton of money, double headers, less teams, talent pool was deeper within each team, because there was less teams.

Aaron and Mays played when you had to crush a ball to reach the power alleys 370-380 , 420 430 to center.

And Aaron weighed 185 lbs....if anyone is really underrated it is Hank Aaron...he still gets overlooked, people jump right to Ruth, he's always been the other guy, even playing second or third fiddle to Mantle and Mays.

I'm not trying to diminish what Hank Aaron did. His accomplishment is one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of baseball. So many factors go into breaking the all time homerun record. Including longevity, health, consistency, even some luck, etc.

The basis, the foundation of finding pitching prospects, is MPH. Nothing else matters. That tells you that MPH is the most important aspect of pitching. The one thing that gets hitters out the most, is MPH. Everything works off the fastball. The harder the fastball, the more effective it is, and all of your other pitches become.

It is common sense to take from that, that as a general rule (obviously control, off speed, mental toughness, etc play a role) harder throwing pitchers are better. I dont think anyone can make the argument that todays pitchers throw softer as a whole than any other era.

The foundation of baseball is the classic duel between pitchers and hitters. It all rests there. External factors such as ballpark size, expansion, whatever other 3rd party-type external reason cant possibly compare to the greatest comparison and most important comparison of all: The actual quality of the duel between the pitcher and the hitter.

Hank Aaron faced lower quality pitchers consistently. Babe Ruth even less than that. Once again, Im not putting together an argument to diminish Aarons accomplishments, but rather to shed some better light on the accomplishments of Bonds.

He is facing steroid-infested pitchers, and other pitchers that arent steroid-infested, but are just plain BETTER, game in and game out.

It's like going to tha batting cages for fun. Let me know how many times you make solid contact in the 80 MPH cage, and let me know how many times you make solid contact in the 90 MPH cage. (Not saying pitchers back then threw 80, and todays are 90....)

Sure, you'll hit a few solid in the 90MPH cage if you have some athletic ability left!! LOL. But, in general, it is MUCH more difficult to get good wood on the ball, I don't even want to get into actually hitting it out of the yard.

 

[Journeyman]

Why do you think the pitching quality was so much worse then? Pitchers are not as good today, they can only pitch every 5th day instead of every four days, and very few can even pitch a whole game but a couple times a year.

I disagree, pitching was better when Hank played then now...other factors, the mound was higher until 1969 most of Aaron's career, there were way less teams, so the talent pool was not spread out...runs were harder to come by, if pitchers were so much worse why were the games lower scoring in the 60-70s?

And most of all, the parks were huge, power-alleys were 25-30 feet deeper.

 

[blueedwards]

Hank Aaron faced lower quality pitchers consistently.

disagree

 

[Boxslayer]

I dont think the pitching is worse, I think the hitters are better.

Hitting mechanics, particularly, have made huge strides and advances the past 10 years, while pitching has remained stagnant. Hitters had to adjust to the school of thought of pitching, and now pitchers need to adjust. I think it's just a natural cycle.

Thats my first impression.

I don't think you can really say pitching is worse. Pitchers are DEFINITELY throwing harder. Let me do a little research and I'll see what I can find to prove or disprove my intial thoughts. Not gonna argue for the sake of arguing.

I got to head out for a few hours, I'll be back later.

 

[blueedwards]

the pitchers may be throwing harder but, how many of barry bonds' homeruns came off a fifth starter who wouldnt even be in the big leagues in 1960? how many came off of some dogshit reliever who was put in the game after it is well out of hand. no question that bonds has to face clemens, oswalt, gagne, etc but...does he rountinely take them deep? i honestly dont know the answer.

i do know that a big, big chunk of sosa's homeruns came off of dogshit relievers that were on mop-up duty in a cubs blow out.

 

[Journeyman]

I dont think the pitching is worse, I think the hitters are better.

Hitting mechanics, particularly, have made huge strides and advances the past 10 years, while pitching has remained stagnant. Hitters had to adjust to the school of thought of pitching, and now pitchers need to adjust. I think it's just a natural cycle.

Thats my first impression.

I don't think you can really say pitching is worse. Pitchers are DEFINITELY throwing harder. Let me do a little research and I'll see what I can find to prove or disprove my intial thoughts. Not gonna argue for the sake of arguing.

I got to head out for a few hours, I'll be back later.

Lets start by answering this, 'Why do you think the games were so much lower scoring back then, if it was so easy to hit'?

 

[blueedwards]

Lets start by answering this, 'Why do you think the games were so much lower scoring back then, if it was so easy to hit'?

excellent point. you never saw these 12-9 games all the time in the 60's and 70's.

now, its like watching a 12" softball game.

 

[Hitman26]

Stronger players (even the ones who aren't juicing are still lifting) plus every rule change has gone against the pitchers (like lowering the mound, tightning of the strike zone, getting a new ball everytime it touches the dirt, and reduced going to the mouth with the hand). The shit keeps adding up.

 

[Journeyman]

Stronger players (even the ones who aren't juicing are still lifting) plus every rule change has gone against the pitchers (like lowering the mound, tightning of the strike zone, getting a new ball everytime it touches the dirt, and reduced going to the mouth with the hand). The shit keeps adding up.

very good points, and the dirty-used ball was a big advantage for the pitchers back then, the mound being much higher was a huge advantage, the high strike call back then a huge advantage.

I have no idea how 185 lb Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs.

 

[FairWarning]

disagree

Agree with Blue. Studs like Marichel, Koufax, Gibson, etc pitched every 3-4 days. There were no 5th starters. Many teams had 3 starters. The best pitchers had 40 starts/year and 300+ innings.

 

[oldmanTED]

Bonds will never reach Hank Aaron's record because his body, particularly his knees can no longer support him when he plants to drive the ball. He can only hit inside pitches with strength as he is able to use his hips. But the outside pitch, he cannot reach or drive anymore. No matter what you've heard, I am convinced this will be Barry's last year. He has already stated that if he needs surgery to remove the bone chips in his swollen elbow, he is finished.

Now a word from someone who saw Aaron and Mays play. Many forget that Aaron played a great deal of his career in stadium designed as a launching pad. His bat speed was tremendous, but the park assisted him greatly in his home run total. Mays, on the other hand, was hitting at Candlestick Park, before it was closed to the San Francisco Bay winds coming in directly toward home plate and still hit 660 home runs. Anyone who knows the Candlestick Park winds, knows how difficult that was. From my perspective, Willie Mays was the greatest HR hitter of all time regardless of the numbers because of the conditions he had to play under.

 

[Journeyman]

The advent of the inside chest protector for Umps was also a big factor that helped batters, back then the ump was standing straight over the catcher and was more likely to call the high strike a strike.

Just imagine the mound higher and the high strike called now...no wonder the games took 2 hours and the score was 3-2.

 

[FairWarning]

Here are some overall stats for a random year - 1961 National League

http://www.baseballreference.com/leagues/NL_1961.shtml

 

[FairWarning]

One thing I find ironic about Bonds is his dislike for the media. Now he tells the media he has a bunch of bone chips. Why would he tell them, except to take some heat off him.

OMT - you are right about Bonds. Looks nowhere near the same player as last year.

FWIW about Mays - He hit 187 HR's as a member of the New York Giants, who played at the Polo Grounds. Don't know about if it was a hitters park down the lines or not?

 

[Journeyman]

Bonds will never reach Hank Aaron's record because his body, particularly his knees can no longer support him when he plants to drive the ball. He can only hit inside pitches with strength as he is able to use his hips. But the outside pitch, he cannot reach or drive anymore. No matter what you've heard, I am convinced this will be Barry's last year. He has already stated that if he needs surgery to remove the bone chips in his swollen elbow, he is finished.

Now a word from someone who saw Aaron and Mays play. Many forget that Aaron played a great deal of his career in stadium designed as a launching pad. His bat speed was tremendous, but the park assisted him greatly in his home run total. Mays, on the other hand, was hitting at Candlestick Park, before it was closed to the San Francisco Bay winds coming in directly toward home plate and still hit 660 home runs. Anyone who knows the Candlestick Park winds, knows how difficult that was. From my perspective, Willie Mays was the greatest HR hitter of all time regardless of the numbers because of the conditions he had to play under.

I'm not going to disagree about Mays ,but Hank did play the first half of his career in Milwaukee...the launching pad wasn't built until 1966.