blue edwards said:
blue is dead right, and i know we have posted in similar threads before about our opinions. look at a picture of aaron and mays in their prime, then look at a picture of bonds pre-steroids. they are more similar in size at that point, and if barry had stayed that size, he wouldn't be smelling their records.
Bonds is the biggest A-Hole in sports in last 30 years. But, without steroids, he would still have been the only 400/400 and then 500/500 player in history. He just destroyed his legacy and auto HOF entry with his greed and jealousy of lesser players like McGuire and Sosa who were cheating also. Personally, I think he only is about even money to be ALIVE when he become eligible for HOF five years after retirement because of his abuse of his body. Some justice there.
Every era can have an asterisk put by it.
Babe Ruth hit 700+ homeruns and half the people he played against had 2nd jobs as plumbers. Ruth didn't play against any black players either. They werent allowed in the game. Let's put an asterisk by his name, too.
Maris broke the record when the season expanded in games. Let's put an asterisk by that, too.
Barry may break it during the steroid era. Let's put an asterisk by that, too.
Let's put asterisks across the whole record book.
Everyone talks about the hitters, but nobody mentions that Barry Bonds, whether he was on steroids or not (and he obviously was) hit 73 homeruns against a bunch of guys throwing 94-98MPH. Once again, pitchers are on roids too, and recent evidence suggests from our small sample size that it is actually the pitchers who are using steroids more frequently than the hitters. Every single guy coming out of the bullpen is throwing 94-98MPH. It is unheard of. You want to talk about homerun stats, WHAT ABOUT THESE VELOCITIES? Let's see Ruth and Aaron hit 700+ homeruns vs. guys throwing 96MPH every game.
My point is, the playing field is even. Whether you want to believe it or not.
Is the game tarnished? yeah it is. And as much as it pisses me off that the game has turned to these discussions about asterisks, I cant say I wouldnt of done the same thing in his shoes.
Babe Ruth hit 700+ homeruns and half the people he played against had 2nd jobs as plumbers. Ruth didn't play against any black players either. They werent allowed in the game. Let's put an asterisk by his name, too.
Maris broke the record when the season expanded in games. Let's put an asterisk by that, too.
Barry may break it during the steroid era. Let's put an asterisk by that, too.
Let's put asterisks across the whole record book.
Everyone talks about the hitters, but nobody mentions that Barry Bonds, whether he was on steroids or not (and he obviously was) hit 73 homeruns against a bunch of guys throwing 94-98MPH. Once again, pitchers are on roids too, and recent evidence suggests from our small sample size that it is actually the pitchers who are using steroids more frequently than the hitters. Every single guy coming out of the bullpen is throwing 94-98MPH. It is unheard of. You want to talk about homerun stats, WHAT ABOUT THESE VELOCITIES? Let's see Ruth and Aaron hit 700+ homeruns vs. guys throwing 96MPH every game.
My point is, the playing field is even. Whether you want to believe it or not.
Is the game tarnished? yeah it is. And as much as it pisses me off that the game has turned to these discussions about asterisks, I cant say I wouldnt of done the same thing in his shoes.
blue edwards said:
How did you get that from what I said?
I said that the consistency of 94-98 MPH throwers, especially out of the bullpen, is ridiculous. If there is a travesty in the game that no one is talking about it is these MPH's. I doubt Babe Ruth saw very many 94-98 MPH throwers, much less every single game. Same for Aaron. Am I saying they couldnt hit 94-98MPH fastballs? No. But to see that day in and day out is incredible. Everyone sits back and rags all of these hitters for steroids, meanwhile yet another guy nobody has ever heard of gets called out of the pen and starts throwing 94-96MPH with a freakin HAMMER. Do people actually think this is normal!? I sure as hell believe if Aaron and Ruth had to face these ridiculous velocities every single game throughout their careers, they would be 500/600HR hitters.
if it was just mcgwire breaking the records and chasing ruth. i think many more would look the other way regarding steroids. they would be happy to have it as a white man's record and the steroids would be a minor issue.
seems like bonds gets the raw deal because he is unliked and because he is black.
seems like bonds gets the raw deal because he is unliked and because he is black.
Exactly. Every guy you just mentioned is like an icon, an idol in their era because they threw that hard. I never said nobody threw that hard back in the day (its just human nature to have a couple of standouts), I said it was the consistency. For every Walter Johnson, I can give you 5 Dominicans with phoney birth certificates on the juice.
For every Nolan Ryan, I can give you a Bobby Jenks. People who just pop up on the radar - Jenks is another closer. Probably would have a crazy nickname and be a legend if this was 1950.
Imagine if Wagner played in the 70's? He'd be a legend.
Walter Johnson was like 6 foot 1 and 200 pounds and was nicknamed the Big Train. I dont even want to know what they would label Randy Johnson.
I can go on forever.
For every Nolan Ryan, I can give you a Bobby Jenks. People who just pop up on the radar - Jenks is another closer. Probably would have a crazy nickname and be a legend if this was 1950.
Imagine if Wagner played in the 70's? He'd be a legend.
Walter Johnson was like 6 foot 1 and 200 pounds and was nicknamed the Big Train. I dont even want to know what they would label Randy Johnson.
I can go on forever.
Boxslayer is right. Whether Bonds took steroids or not he is still the best player of his time. Babe Ruth would have a tough time hitting against guys that can consistently throw in the 90's for 110 pitches and then against the reliever who can throw 97-99 mph to finish it up. You really cannot compare players of different eras period. Give em all astericks
Boxslayer32 said:
this is where i got it.
yes, babe and hank did not have to face quality closers...that is a valid point. however, i believe that pitching as a whole, is worse now than when hank aaron played. also...
babe ruth played in the dead ball era. there were years that he had more home runs that some teams did.
hank aaron was under 200 lbs. the pitchers he faced pitched off a mound that was significantly higher than it is today. he did not get to play in coors field, minute made field, cinergy field.
say what you want...barry bonds is not babe ruth or hank aaron. end of story.
BULLSHIT
No Yankee has ever been booed more than Roger Maris PERIOD, he was white. Why was Bonds a Black man cheered when he hit the 70 plus???
No one was ever cheered more than Sammy in Wrigley, (he is not white) or cheered more in Minny than Kirby I could go on and on. Griffey, Pujols, A Jones, A ROD all will be cheered if they break that record some day. ALL NOT WHITE. BONDS IS JUST A JAG.
For 20 years race was never an issue with him when people loved him.
This is an issue that I feel strongly about, which is why I always find myself in these Bonds conversations. And I always find myself disagreeing with baseball purists.
The problem (if you want to call it a "problem") is you have baseball purists like blue seems to be, Journeyman, etc. A baseball purist is the best type of fan in all of sports. I don't think there is a person on the planet who wants to protect the integrity of the game and it's past, and enjoys the game for what it is, more than a baseball purist. They will defend the past at the integrity of the game at all costs. It is a respectable and honorable thing to be as a sports fan.
Being born in the 80's, I can never really truely call myself a baseball purist. Sort of the same way that I have grown fond of the Red Sox, but I can never truely label myself a Red Sox fan. Being a Red Sox fan is more than just liking the team, its all the let downs, and years of experience. Its a way of life.
The game of baseball has changed forever. It will never be the same. The game relies on baseball purists to keep the game integrity.
The problem (if you want to call it a "problem") is you have baseball purists like blue seems to be, Journeyman, etc. A baseball purist is the best type of fan in all of sports. I don't think there is a person on the planet who wants to protect the integrity of the game and it's past, and enjoys the game for what it is, more than a baseball purist. They will defend the past at the integrity of the game at all costs. It is a respectable and honorable thing to be as a sports fan.
Being born in the 80's, I can never really truely call myself a baseball purist. Sort of the same way that I have grown fond of the Red Sox, but I can never truely label myself a Red Sox fan. Being a Red Sox fan is more than just liking the team, its all the let downs, and years of experience. Its a way of life.
The game of baseball has changed forever. It will never be the same. The game relies on baseball purists to keep the game integrity.
blue edwards said:
Yeah, but once again I think you're missing the key word...
"Let's see Ruth and Aaron hit 700+ homeruns vs. guys throwing 96MPH EVERY GAME."
Like I said, not saying they can't hit 96MPH. I'm sure they'd go big fly and still be considered great players. They just didnt face it every game. Every now and then you'd face a Nolan Ryan, or a Walter Johnson and it was like the ultimate challenge as a hitter.
Today, you face these guys every game. They may not be throwing 100MPH, but damn there are just so many guys throwing low to mid 90's. Guys in the pen throwing crazy velocities. It's not normal. Yes, human performance, strength and conditioning has evolved. Baseball is now a year round sports no matter what age and it should naturally increase velocity. But that should only mean you expect to see more 90 MPH throwers. Not 94-96. I can count the hard throwers of past eras on my fingers. I need a notebook to write down guys in the bigs throwing mid 90's.
