What Poker hands can you just NOT get away from...

royalfan · May 27, 2005

WildBill said:
Sorry guys but you need to work on your late tournament strategy if you refuse to lay rockets down. The situations come up occasionally, but you need to be prepared for them.

By all means remember in a tournament you are playing the structure and the field more than the hands. When you have chips and a bunch of players don't and they are trying to make the money or move up the ladder, you can play many hands as if you have AA. When the tables are turned you have to change strategies and work to maximize your equity in the prize pool. And that might require you to quietly muck premium hands.

I have a very good tournament history, I don't think I need to change anything, and I am not sure there would ever be a time I would lay down aces before the flop. The amount of money made for limping into the money is very small in most tourneys relatvie to top 5 spots or so and I am not sure any situation would warrant me going for the small nibble with the BEST HAND POSSIBLE, when it would seriously compromise my chances of cashing a decent amount. Possibly if I had ten percent of the blinds left in a big multi tourney where I was no threat whatsoever to do anything but cash the smallest amount without doubling up 10 or 15 times or something very drastic. I am rarely in such a spot as I would likely have been all in rather than leave myself nothing. To say that others need to change their tourney stratagies and fold pocket aces like it should be a common occurrence is ridiculous.

royalfan · May 27, 2005

I would love to see the day, Negraneu or ivey laid down aces before the flop. Yeah right, that thought is simply nonsensical.

Rainbow · May 27, 2005

If I was sweating a hand and seen that person fold with pocket aces before the flop, the first thing I would think is the game is not on the up and up or the cards have backs on them...

ProPokerPlayer · May 27, 2005

Guys try to understand...he's talking about being say 68th in a tourney which pays 65....you fold 2 jokers if your short stacked.why risk your whole tourny on 1 hand? ACES are not a great hand to improve on..you can get 3 of a kind, maybe 4 or a full house but is that a given? hell no! the guy with the K/Q suited in that other example is in a better spot if you ask me..he can hit K's, Q'S..a straight, a flush, 3 of a kind, 4 etc....in tourny play that 65th spot usually gets your entry back plus a buck or two...fold those aces, slow play like a mutha and live to play another day. now IF your on the button and noone else raises well take your shots i guess..but the chances of you coming back to win the big money against your entry fee back has got to be a HUGE - EV..

max1234 · May 27, 2005

I'll stick by my earlier statement. And I am refering to tournament play, not side games. If all stacks are about equal, 3 people call, it's bubble time and you call with AA then you're begging to not cash. That is, unless you've never had AA beaten before. If AA always holds up then fire away. Wild Bill is 100% on in his assessment. He's not talking about being the chip leader and throwing away AA. Same thinking applies to playing in a satellite.

royalfan · May 27, 2005

This conversation is a perfect example of what makes the game of poker great. There are a million different strategies for each situation that evolves.

Rainbow · May 27, 2005

ProPokerPlayer said:
Guys try to understand...he's talking about being say 68th in a tourney which pays 65....you fold 2 jokers if your short stacked.why risk your whole tourny on 1 hand? ACES are not a great hand to improve on..you can get 3 of a kind, maybe 4 or a full house but is that a given? hell no! the guy with the K/Q suited in that other example is in a better spot if you ask me..he can hit K's, Q'S..a straight, a flush, 3 of a kind, 4 etc....in tourny play that 65th spot usually gets your entry back plus a buck or two...fold those aces, slow play like a mutha and live to play another day. now IF your on the button and noone else raises well take your shots i guess..but the chances of you coming back to win the big money against your entry fee back has got to be a HUGE - EV..

K-Q suited is better than pocket aces before the flop, you going to need more than a horseshoe to win playing poker if you believe that, not even close... its never no excuse to EVER fold with pocket aces, just think if you wouldn't have folded them pocket aces you may have come back and made a run at the tournament, I'm done arguing about this topic...:drink:

royalfan · May 27, 2005

Rainbow said:
K-Q suited is better than pocket aces before the flop, you going to need more than a horseshoe to win playing poker if you believe that, not even close... its never no excuse to EVER fold with pocket aces, just think if you wouldn't have folded them pocket aces you may have come back and made a run at the tournament, I'm done arguing about this topic...:drink:

I agree.

primetime21+ · May 27, 2005

there are definitely situations that require you to fold AA preflop. but those situations RARELY come up and are barely worth discussing. However, to dismiss the fact that there are situations when folding AA is a good play shows a sign of weakness in someones poker game.

not sure if this has been discussed, but if you are in a satellite that gives an entry to the WSOP to the top 4 players and you are medium stacked and there are 5 players left and you hold AA and 3 players go all in before you, there is NO WAY you call with AA. You would need a lobotomy to call in that spot.

Another situation is if you are at a full table and everyone goes all in before the play comes to you. AA in that spot is a very weak hand and a horrible call.

royalfan · May 27, 2005

I even disagree in your comment. If two had less than you, then you are going to the WSOP unless the SMALL Stack only guy wins as you had more chips. If the world series is that close to being within grasp and the small stack has to take down 2 others besides you AND you have aces it is a no brainer to call in that instance. If all higher stacks then you have a point perhaps.

AdamSelene · May 27, 2005

Low Pairs.

I have no problem folding them pre-flop against a large raise. However against blind or small raise I feel compelled to see the flop.

But they just suck something terrible when a bunch of over cards flop and no trips.

I think I don't know how to play low pairs.

A hand I have a hard time giving up is KK or QQ when an Ace hits the board, especially if I raised hard pre-flop.

pokerpills · May 27, 2005

Racer X said:
For some reason...i'll always play J,10 suited. I've won a lot of money with those cards.

I'll play j,10 offsuit if there are no raises....

i'll fold K,10...but play J,10....

i think i've finally figured out that i'm dead money.

Actually J, 10 suited is a very good starting hand. Whenever you make your straight with J 10, it will always be the Nut straight, regardless which straight it makes. Some old schoolers like Cloutier think J 10 suited is stronger than AK.

MrJinx · May 27, 2005

Do you guys ever played a 2-3 suited? :shocked:

Rainbow · May 27, 2005

Mr Jinx said:
Do you guys ever played a 2-3 suited? :shocked:

NEVER.

WildBill · May 27, 2005

Ok everyone, here is a situation that came up about a week ago in an online tournament. It was 6-handed and the guy one before the big had just been beaten out of a big hand and the blinds had just been raised. He had about 1/4 of the big blind left. I had about 2 BB left myself. He just folded his hand, making me second to act. At this point I am thinking to myself there isn't a hand I would want to play here, better to let him try to survive the blinds and guarantee myself 5th place. The difference between 5th and 6th was about $95 for a $30 buy-in. I looked down and saw KK. I threw it away. It didn't matter if it was AA, I would have thrown it away. I didn't have enough firepower to scare anyone out and the one player I would want in the pot with me wasn't going to be there.

Turned out the two biggest stacks got involved in a small pot and my KK would have been beat by a QJ by the biggest stack, who flopped top two. Short stack lost the next hand as I hoped. I ended up doubling up in the BB and went on to finish 4th.

I agree AA isn't a hand you throw away much at all, but when you get to the money stages in a good sized tourney, there are going to be situations where you have to enter a hand saying they might as well deal me out. Other times you will see multiple players enter a pot where they could go bust and you have to think hard about maybe letting a bigger stack try to knock them out. Once again never make the mistake of thinking only about your card strength. Play the tournament, not the cards.

max1234 · May 27, 2005

WildBill,

Careful, you're going to give some of the guys a headache....:toast:

pokerpills · May 27, 2005

WildBill said:
Ok everyone, here is a situation that came up about a week ago in an online tournament. It was 6-handed and the guy one before the big had just been beaten out of a big hand and the blinds had just been raised. He had about 1/4 of the big blind left. I had about 2 BB left myself. He just folded his hand, making me second to act. At this point I am thinking to myself there isn't a hand I would want to play here, better to let him try to survive the blinds and guarantee myself 5th place. The difference between 5th and 6th was about $95 for a $30 buy-in. I looked down and saw KK. I threw it away. It didn't matter if it was AA, I would have thrown it away. I didn't have enough firepower to scare anyone out and the one player I would want in the pot with me wasn't going to be there.

Turned out the two biggest stacks got involved in a small pot and my KK would have been beat by a QJ by the biggest stack, who flopped top two. Short stack lost the next hand as I hoped. I ended up doubling up in the BB and went on to finish 4th.

I agree AA isn't a hand you throw away much at all, but when you get to the money stages in a good sized tourney, there are going to be situations where you have to enter a hand saying they might as well deal me out. Other times you will see multiple players enter a pot where they could go bust and you have to think hard about maybe letting a bigger stack try to knock them out. Once again never make the mistake of thinking only about your card strength. Play the tournament, not the cards.

I agree. In a tournament, if it gets down to the final table or near the bubble, I deal myself out or muck the cards preflop. I don't even want to be tempted to play AK, QQ, or JJ for these hands are extremely dangerous. The worst is to get busted out on these hands and not make the money. In tournament play, money can be made by folding hands.

Rainbow · May 27, 2005

I can tell by alot of the replies on this topic, even if it wasn't a Tournament high rollers could make you throw your hand in, in a heartbeat. I love to play in games when the rest of the players are trying to draw out on me...
How much is the whole tournament is worth makes all the difference in the world, if its pocket change why bother...

RPM · May 27, 2005

i cant get away from trips when there is a possible flush on the flop.

pokerpills · May 27, 2005

RPM said:
i cant get away from trips when there is a possible flush on the flop.

Depends on the bet afterwards. If it's an all in bet from a tight player, most likely fold. If it's just several units, it will be right to call because you will still have quite a few outs to make a full house , at least 8 , not counting the turn and river cards.