The Most Overrated Player In The HISTORY Of Sports Is.......

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HinesWard86

HinesWard86

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HAT said:
:ohno:

Big Ben got to his SB's because of his team and coaching staff....

Elway (in the 80's) got to his SB's in spite of his....The fact that they got blown out in all 3 further illustrates just how mediocre those teams were and adds to Elway's lore that he got them there. Go ask the Cleveland Browns and Marty Schottenheimer if Elway was overrated.

I'm not even going to justify the Lomax & Kreig comparison.

Are you under 30 Hines? I'm guessing you only saw him play in the 90's and not the 80's?
Click to expand...

Under 30 yes. Elway got to three Super Bowls in one of the weakest conferences ever. The late 1980's AFC was laughable. There is a reason that the NFC won every Super Bowl from 84-96. The entire AFC was mediocre. Look at some of those teams. Fucking Mark Malone led a team to the AFC Title Game, Bernie Kosar led the Browns to two.

Elway is a top 10 qb, that is true. The #1 talk is ridiculous though.

First 10 years in the NFL, Elway had one more TD than INT. One. He had horrible postseason stats as well.

<table class="sortable stats_table small_text" id="passing"><thead><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class=""><th class="sort_default_asc" align="left">Year</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Player\'s age on December 31st of that year')" align="center">Age</th> <th class="sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="left">Tm</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Position
In player and team season stats,
Capitals indicates primary starter.
Lower-case means part-time starter.')" align="left">Pos</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games played')" align="center">G</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games started as an offensive or defensive player')" align="center">GS</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Team record in games started by this QB (regular season)')" align="center">QBrec</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes completed')" align="center">Cmp</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes attempted')" align="center">Att</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Passes Completed
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passes Completed)/(Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Cmp%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards Gained by Passing
For teams, sack yardage is deducted from this total')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passing Touchdowns')" align="center">TD</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Touchdowns Thrown when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Passing Touchdowns / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">TD%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Interceptions thrown')" align="center">Int</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Times Intercepted when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Interceptions / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Int%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Longest Completed Pass Thrown')" align="center">Lng</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled games to qualify as leader)
Passing Yards / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Y/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">AY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per pass completion
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Passes Completed)')" align="center">Y/C</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per game played
(minimum half a game played per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Games played)')" align="center">Y/G</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Quarterback Rating, see glossary for details
Different ratings are used by the NFL and NCAA.')" align="center">Rate</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Times Sacked (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Sk</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards lost due to sacks (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">NY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">ANY/A</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Time Sacked when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts + sacks per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Times Sacked / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">Sk%</th> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1983</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">11</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td csk="0.40000" align="right">4-6-0</td> <td align="right">123</td> <td align="right">259</td> <td align="right">47.5</td> <td align="right">1663</td> <td align="right">7</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">49</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">13.5</td> <td align="right">151.2</td> <td align="right">54.9</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="right">218</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">9.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1984</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td csk="0.85714" align="right">12-2-0</td> <td align="right">214</td> <td align="right">380</td> <td align="right">56.3</td> <td align="right">2598</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.9</td> <td align="right">73</td> <td align="right">6.8</td> <td align="right">5.5</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">173.2</td> <td align="right">76.8</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="right">158</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> <td align="right">4.8</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1985</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">327</td> <td align="right">605</td> <td align="right">54.0</td> <td align="right">3891</td> <td align="right">22</td> <td align="right">3.6</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">65</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">11.9</td> <td align="right">243.2</td> <td align="right">70.2</td> <td align="right">38</td> <td align="right">307</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1986*</td> <td align="right">26</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">280</td> <td align="right">504</td> <td align="right">55.6</td> <td align="right">3485</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.6</td> <td align="right">53</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.4</td> <td align="right">217.8</td> <td align="right">79.0</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="right">233</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1987*</td> <td align="right">27</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.70833" align="right">8-3-1</td> <td align="right">224</td> <td align="right">410</td> <td align="right">54.6</td> <td align="right">3198</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">4.6</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">72</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">14.3</td> <td align="right">266.5</td> <td align="right">83.4</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1988</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.53333" align="right">8-7-0</td> <td align="right">274</td> <td align="right">496</td> <td align="right">55.2</td> <td align="right">3309</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">86</td> <td align="right">6.7</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">220.6</td> <td align="right">71.4</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="right">237</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">4.5</td> <td align="right">5.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1989*</td> <td align="right">29</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">10-5-0</td> <td align="right">223</td> <td align="right">416</td> <td align="right">53.6</td> <td align="right">3051</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">69</td> <td align="right">7.3</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">13.7</td> <td align="right">203.4</td> <td align="right">73.7</td> <td align="right">35</td> <td align="right">298</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1990</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.31250" align="right">5-11-0</td> <td align="right">294</td> <td align="right">502</td> <td align="right">58.6</td> <td align="right">3526</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">2.8</td> <td align="right">66</td> <td align="right">7.0</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.0</td> <td align="right">220.4</td> <td align="right">78.5</td> <td align="right">43</td> <td align="right">311</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">7.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1991*</td> <td align="right">31</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.75000" align="right">12-4-0</td> <td align="right">242</td> <td align="right">451</td> <td align="right">53.7</td> <td align="right">3253</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">71</td> <td align="right">7.2</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">13.4</td> <td align="right">203.3</td> <td align="right">75.4</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">305</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">9.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1992</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">8-4-0</td> <td align="right">174</td> <td align="right">316</td> <td align="right">55.1</td> <td align="right">2242</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td align="right">3.2</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">80</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">12.9</td> <td align="right">186.8</td> <td align="right">65.7</td> <td align="right">36</td> <td align="right">272</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">3.7</td> <td align="right">10.2</td></tr></tbody></table>
One year, he had a QB rating over 80. One. Now QB rating isn't the be all/end all but it is important.

One more thing, Elway threw a motherfucking ton of INTs. Check out his INT ratio and compare it to other QB's from those years. Always had one of the higher numbers.
 
mamatried

mamatried

Everything's Legal in the USofA...Just don't get c
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HinesWard86 said:
Under 30 yes. Elway got to three Super Bowls in one of the weakest conferences ever. The late 1980's AFC was laughable. There is a reason that the NFC won every Super Bowl from 84-96. The entire AFC was mediocre. Look at some of those teams. Fucking Mark Malone led a team to the AFC Title Game, Bernie Kosar led the Browns to two.

Elway is a top 10 qb, that is true. The #1 talk is ridiculous though.

First 10 years in the NFL, Elway had one more TD than INT. One. He had horrible postseason stats as well.

<table class="sortable stats_table small_text" id="passing"><thead><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class=""><th class="sort_default_asc" align="left">Year</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Player\'s age on December 31st of that year')" align="center">Age</th> <th class="sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="left">Tm</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Position
In player and team season stats,
Capitals indicates primary starter.
Lower-case means part-time starter.')" align="left">Pos</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games played')" align="center">G</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games started as an offensive or defensive player')" align="center">GS</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Team record in games started by this QB (regular season)')" align="center">QBrec</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes completed')" align="center">Cmp</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes attempted')" align="center">Att</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Passes Completed
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passes Completed)/(Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Cmp%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards Gained by Passing
For teams, sack yardage is deducted from this total')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passing Touchdowns')" align="center">TD</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Touchdowns Thrown when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Passing Touchdowns / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">TD%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Interceptions thrown')" align="center">Int</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Times Intercepted when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Interceptions / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Int%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Longest Completed Pass Thrown')" align="center">Lng</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled games to qualify as leader)
Passing Yards / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Y/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">AY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per pass completion
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Passes Completed)')" align="center">Y/C</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per game played
(minimum half a game played per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Games played)')" align="center">Y/G</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Quarterback Rating, see glossary for details
Different ratings are used by the NFL and NCAA.')" align="center">Rate</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Times Sacked (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Sk</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards lost due to sacks (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">NY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">ANY/A</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Time Sacked when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts + sacks per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Times Sacked / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">Sk%</th> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1983</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">11</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td csk="0.40000" align="right">4-6-0</td> <td align="right">123</td> <td align="right">259</td> <td align="right">47.5</td> <td align="right">1663</td> <td align="right">7</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">49</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">13.5</td> <td align="right">151.2</td> <td align="right">54.9</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="right">218</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">9.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1984</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td csk="0.85714" align="right">12-2-0</td> <td align="right">214</td> <td align="right">380</td> <td align="right">56.3</td> <td align="right">2598</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.9</td> <td align="right">73</td> <td align="right">6.8</td> <td align="right">5.5</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">173.2</td> <td align="right">76.8</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="right">158</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> <td align="right">4.8</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1985</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">327</td> <td align="right">605</td> <td align="right">54.0</td> <td align="right">3891</td> <td align="right">22</td> <td align="right">3.6</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">65</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">11.9</td> <td align="right">243.2</td> <td align="right">70.2</td> <td align="right">38</td> <td align="right">307</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1986*</td> <td align="right">26</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">280</td> <td align="right">504</td> <td align="right">55.6</td> <td align="right">3485</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.6</td> <td align="right">53</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.4</td> <td align="right">217.8</td> <td align="right">79.0</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="right">233</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1987*</td> <td align="right">27</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.70833" align="right">8-3-1</td> <td align="right">224</td> <td align="right">410</td> <td align="right">54.6</td> <td align="right">3198</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">4.6</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">72</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">14.3</td> <td align="right">266.5</td> <td align="right">83.4</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1988</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.53333" align="right">8-7-0</td> <td align="right">274</td> <td align="right">496</td> <td align="right">55.2</td> <td align="right">3309</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">86</td> <td align="right">6.7</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">220.6</td> <td align="right">71.4</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="right">237</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">4.5</td> <td align="right">5.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1989*</td> <td align="right">29</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">10-5-0</td> <td align="right">223</td> <td align="right">416</td> <td align="right">53.6</td> <td align="right">3051</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">69</td> <td align="right">7.3</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">13.7</td> <td align="right">203.4</td> <td align="right">73.7</td> <td align="right">35</td> <td align="right">298</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1990</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.31250" align="right">5-11-0</td> <td align="right">294</td> <td align="right">502</td> <td align="right">58.6</td> <td align="right">3526</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">2.8</td> <td align="right">66</td> <td align="right">7.0</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.0</td> <td align="right">220.4</td> <td align="right">78.5</td> <td align="right">43</td> <td align="right">311</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">7.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1991*</td> <td align="right">31</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.75000" align="right">12-4-0</td> <td align="right">242</td> <td align="right">451</td> <td align="right">53.7</td> <td align="right">3253</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">71</td> <td align="right">7.2</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">13.4</td> <td align="right">203.3</td> <td align="right">75.4</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">305</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">9.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1992</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">8-4-0</td> <td align="right">174</td> <td align="right">316</td> <td align="right">55.1</td> <td align="right">2242</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td align="right">3.2</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">80</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">12.9</td> <td align="right">186.8</td> <td align="right">65.7</td> <td align="right">36</td> <td align="right">272</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">3.7</td> <td align="right">10.2</td></tr></tbody></table>
One year, he had a QB rating over 80. One. Now QB rating isn't the be all/end all but it is important.

One more thing, Elway threw a motherfucking ton of INTs. Check out his INT ratio and compare it to other QB's from those years. Always had one of the higher numbers.
Click to expand...

You fail to consider that most of the teams Elway played on were mediocre at best. Until his last couple of years, his offensive line SUCKED. The Broncos defense SUCKED, and he more often than not had shitty field position. He had a string of fair to middling running backs, and the three amigos would have been deported if they didn't have Elway throwing to him.

Best ever in my book. Montana the only one even close.
 
Drewgasm

Drewgasm

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HAT said:
:ohno:

Big Ben got to his SB's because of his team and coaching staff....

Elway (in the 80's) got to his SB's in spite of his....The fact that they got blown out in all 3 further illustrates just how mediocre those teams were and adds to Elway's lore that he got them there. Go ask the Cleveland Browns and Marty Schottenheimer if Elway was overrated.

I'm not even going to justify the Lomax & Kreig comparison.

Are you under 30 Hines? I'm guessing you only saw him play in the 90's and not the 80's?
Click to expand...

Your spinning and twisting your arguement...you are saying HE* is the reason they got to the Superbowls...but the team sucked when they got blown out....he should get the blame for gettting blown out too...I think he was very overrated....not most overrated ever...but overrated...Id put Brett Favre in there too....he won only one Superbowl, not to mention he probably cost his team two years ago with that horrendous pick against the Giants...he threw way to many int's.....and I do think they are both hall of famers....but even hall of famers can be overrated....its not a bad thing....just all perception.....maybe if John Madden didnt swing from Brett Favres hairy bean bags, he wouldnt be thought of as being as great as he is....people think what theses media idiots say is always true....

Gasm~
 
Drewgasm

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Im gonna say Ozzie Smith......awful batting average....guy is in the hall of fame cuz he can do a fuckin backflip on opening day....Big Fucking Deal!


Gasm~
 
stale

stale

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michael jordan, nba perfected it's star making machine with him
 

Seymour

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Did I really see Manning, Jeter and Elway on this list - and Ali?

Guys like Iverson and McGrady are overated - Mike Tyson was overated.
 
TomGshotput

TomGshotput

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Doc JS said:
Grab a bat and get in the box... I can promise you that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actually BATTED against the Express who felt like he was over rated.
Click to expand...

It is not the job of the people who play the sports to rate each other. It is the hobby of the consumer to do so. Far too many times the guy who actually BATTED against Ryan reached base. At far higher rates than the guys who batted against Clemens or Maddux or Gibson or Seaver or Grove or Johnson (Walter or Randy) or Spahn or Feller. Have you asked anyone who batter against those pitchers if they are overrated, underrated or rated accurately?

Whatever the answer is, if Ryan is rated as equal to any of them, he is overrated

Who was the the second best player in NBA history? Like I said, I no less about basketball; I also only said there was a reasonable case for Johnson being second best, but not for Bird or Erving
 
TomGshotput

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If we all agree Iverson is overrated, we all need to reconsider exactly where he is typically rated

Ali is a good candidate. A huge fan of him, but only reason he went 2-1 against Frazier is because the guy went blind in the middle of the fight. If not for that there is no case for him even being considered the best ever
 
fhmesq44

fhmesq44

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HinesWard86 said:
Under 30 yes. Elway got to three Super Bowls in one of the weakest conferences ever. The late 1980's AFC was laughable. There is a reason that the NFC won every Super Bowl from 84-96. The entire AFC was mediocre. Look at some of those teams. Fucking Mark Malone led a team to the AFC Title Game, Bernie Kosar led the Browns to two.

Elway is a top 10 qb, that is true. The #1 talk is ridiculous though.

First 10 years in the NFL, Elway had one more TD than INT. One. He had horrible postseason stats as well.

<table class="sortable stats_table small_text" id="passing"><thead><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class=""><th class="sort_default_asc" align="left">Year</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Player\'s age on December 31st of that year')" align="center">Age</th> <th class="sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="left">Tm</th> <th class="sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Position
In player and team season stats,
Capitals indicates primary starter.
Lower-case means part-time starter.')" align="left">Pos</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games played')" align="center">G</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Games started as an offensive or defensive player')" align="center">GS</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Team record in games started by this QB (regular season)')" align="center">QBrec</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes completed')" align="center">Cmp</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passes attempted')" align="center">Att</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Passes Completed
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passes Completed)/(Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Cmp%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards Gained by Passing
For teams, sack yardage is deducted from this total')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Passing Touchdowns')" align="center">TD</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Touchdowns Thrown when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Passing Touchdowns / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">TD%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Interceptions thrown')" align="center">Int</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Times Intercepted when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Interceptions / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Int%</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Longest Completed Pass Thrown')" align="center">Lng</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attempts per scheduled games to qualify as leader)
Passing Yards / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">Y/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted)')" align="center">AY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per pass completion
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Passes Completed)')" align="center">Y/C</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip(' Yards gained per game played
(minimum half a game played per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards) / (Games played)')" align="center">Y/G</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Quarterback Rating, see glossary for details
Different ratings are used by the NFL and NCAA.')" align="center">Rate</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Times Sacked (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Sk</th> <th class="" onmouseover="Tip('Yards lost due to sacks (first recorded in 1969)')" align="center">Yds</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">NY/A</th> <th class="hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Adjusted Net Yards gained per pass attempt
(minimum 14 attepts per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
(Passing Yards - Sack Yards + 10 * Passing TD - 45 * Interceptions) / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">ANY/A</th> <th class="sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Percentage of Time Sacked when Attempting to Pass
(minimum 14 attempts + sacks per scheduled game to qualify as leader)
Times Sacked / (Passes Attempted + Times Sacked)')" align="center">Sk%</th> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1983</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">11</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td csk="0.40000" align="right">4-6-0</td> <td align="right">123</td> <td align="right">259</td> <td align="right">47.5</td> <td align="right">1663</td> <td align="right">7</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">49</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">13.5</td> <td align="right">151.2</td> <td align="right">54.9</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="right">218</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">3.1</td> <td align="right">9.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1984</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td csk="0.85714" align="right">12-2-0</td> <td align="right">214</td> <td align="right">380</td> <td align="right">56.3</td> <td align="right">2598</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.9</td> <td align="right">73</td> <td align="right">6.8</td> <td align="right">5.5</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">173.2</td> <td align="right">76.8</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="right">158</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> <td align="right">4.8</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1985</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">327</td> <td align="right">605</td> <td align="right">54.0</td> <td align="right">3891</td> <td align="right">22</td> <td align="right">3.6</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">65</td> <td align="right">6.4</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">11.9</td> <td align="right">243.2</td> <td align="right">70.2</td> <td align="right">38</td> <td align="right">307</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1986*</td> <td align="right">26</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.68750" align="right">11-5-0</td> <td align="right">280</td> <td align="right">504</td> <td align="right">55.6</td> <td align="right">3485</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.6</td> <td align="right">53</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.4</td> <td align="right">217.8</td> <td align="right">79.0</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="right">233</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">6.0</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1987*</td> <td align="right">27</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.70833" align="right">8-3-1</td> <td align="right">224</td> <td align="right">410</td> <td align="right">54.6</td> <td align="right">3198</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">4.6</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">72</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> <td align="right">6.9</td> <td align="right">14.3</td> <td align="right">266.5</td> <td align="right">83.4</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1988</td> <td align="right">28</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.53333" align="right">8-7-0</td> <td align="right">274</td> <td align="right">496</td> <td align="right">55.2</td> <td align="right">3309</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">3.4</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">3.8</td> <td align="right">86</td> <td align="right">6.7</td> <td align="right">5.3</td> <td align="right">12.1</td> <td align="right">220.6</td> <td align="right">71.4</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="right">237</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">4.5</td> <td align="right">5.7</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1989*</td> <td align="right">29</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">10-5-0</td> <td align="right">223</td> <td align="right">416</td> <td align="right">53.6</td> <td align="right">3051</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">4.3</td> <td align="right">69</td> <td align="right">7.3</td> <td align="right">5.8</td> <td align="right">13.7</td> <td align="right">203.4</td> <td align="right">73.7</td> <td align="right">35</td> <td align="right">298</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">4.7</td> <td align="right">7.8</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1990</td> <td align="right">30</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.31250" align="right">5-11-0</td> <td align="right">294</td> <td align="right">502</td> <td align="right">58.6</td> <td align="right">3526</td> <td align="right">15</td> <td align="right">3.0</td> <td align="right">14</td> <td align="right">2.8</td> <td align="right">66</td> <td align="right">7.0</td> <td align="right">6.1</td> <td align="right">12.0</td> <td align="right">220.4</td> <td align="right">78.5</td> <td align="right">43</td> <td align="right">311</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">7.9</td> </tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1991*</td> <td align="right">31</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td align="right">16</td> <td csk="0.75000" align="right">12-4-0</td> <td align="right">242</td> <td align="right">451</td> <td align="right">53.7</td> <td align="right">3253</td> <td align="right">13</td> <td align="right">2.9</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">2.7</td> <td align="right">71</td> <td align="right">7.2</td> <td align="right">6.3</td> <td align="right">13.4</td> <td align="right">203.3</td> <td align="right">75.4</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">305</td> <td align="right">5.9</td> <td align="right">5.1</td> <td align="right">9.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204);" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);" class="full_table"> <td align="left">1992</td> <td align="right">32</td> <td align="left">DEN</td> <td align="left">QB</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td align="right">12</td> <td csk="0.66667" align="right">8-4-0</td> <td align="right">174</td> <td align="right">316</td> <td align="right">55.1</td> <td align="right">2242</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td align="right">3.2</td> <td align="right">17</td> <td align="right">5.4</td> <td align="right">80</td> <td align="right">7.1</td> <td align="right">5.0</td> <td align="right">12.9</td> <td align="right">186.8</td> <td align="right">65.7</td> <td align="right">36</td> <td align="right">272</td> <td align="right">5.6</td> <td align="right">3.7</td> <td align="right">10.2</td></tr></tbody></table>
One year, he had a QB rating over 80. One. Now QB rating isn't the be all/end all but it is important.

One more thing, Elway threw a motherfucking ton of INTs. Check out his INT ratio and compare it to other QB's from those years. Always had one of the higher numbers.
Click to expand...

There are three types of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics. All that information should tell you is that stats lie, especially when it comes to QBs. There are plenty of reasons why Elway's numbers weren't great early in his career, including, they were a down field passing team unlike Young/Montana and SF, his RBs were HORRENDOUS and his WRs weren't much better. The leading rushers on his teams pre Davis were Sammy Winder (for 5 seasons, topped 800 once in his career), Dorsett, Bobby Humphrey, Gaston Green, Rod Bernstine and Leonard Russell. His leading WRs were Steve Watson, Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Michael Young. QB rating doesn't take into account his rushing ability. He also took 3 pretty mediocre teams to the Super Bowl (granted, they got smashed, but none were near Super Bowl quality teams).

All a comparison to Lomax and Krieg does is provide proof the stats lie to anyone who saw the three of them play regularly. QB Rating can't be used as the sole measure of quality. Take a gander at the all time QB Rating leaders. There are a load of average, some below average QBs and some downright poor QBs in the top 50.

<table><tbody><tr><td align="right">1.</td> <td>Steve Young+ </td> <td align="right">96.8</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1999 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">2.</td> <td>Peyton Manning (32)</td> <td align="right">94.7</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">clt</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Tony Romo (28)</td> <td align="right">94.7</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">4.</td> <td>Kurt Warner (37)</td> <td align="right">93.8</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">5.</td> <td>Tom Brady (31)</td> <td align="right">92.9</td> <td align="right"> 2000-2008 </td> <td align="right">nwe</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Philip Rivers (27)</td> <td align="right">92.9</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">sdg</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">7.</td> <td>Joe Montana+ </td> <td align="right">92.3</td> <td align="right"> 1979-1994 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">8.</td> <td>Chad Pennington (32)</td> <td align="right">90.6</td> <td align="right"> 2000-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">9.</td> <td>Drew Brees (29)</td> <td align="right">89.4</td> <td align="right"> 2001-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Ben Roethlisberger (26)</td> <td align="right">89.4</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">pit</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">11.</td> <td>Daunte Culpepper (31)</td> <td align="right">89.0</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">12.</td> <td>Carson Palmer (29)</td> <td align="right">88.9</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">cin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">13.</td> <td>Jeff Garcia (38)</td> <td align="right">87.5</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">5TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">14.</td> <td>Jay Cutler (25)</td> <td align="right">87.1</td> <td align="right"> 2006-2008 </td> <td align="right">den</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">15.</td> <td>Otto Graham+ </td> <td align="right">86.6</td> <td align="right"> 1946-1955 </td> <td align="right">cle</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">16.</td> <td>Dan Marino+ </td> <td align="right">86.4</td> <td align="right"> 1983-1999 </td> <td align="right">mia</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">17.</td> <td>Trent Green (38)</td> <td align="right">86.0</td> <td align="right"> 1997-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">18.</td> <td>Donovan McNabb (32)</td> <td align="right">85.9</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">phi</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">19.</td> <td>Marc Bulger (31)</td> <td align="right">85.6</td> <td align="right"> 2002-2008 </td> <td align="right">ram</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">20.</td> <td>David Garrard (30)</td> <td align="right">85.4</td> <td align="right"> 2002-2008 </td> <td align="right">jax</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Brett Favre (39)</td> <td align="right">85.4</td> <td align="right"> 1991-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">22.</td> <td>Jake Delhomme (33)</td> <td align="right">85.1</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">23.</td> <td>Rich Gannon </td> <td align="right">84.7</td> <td align="right"> 1987-2004 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">24.</td> <td>Matt Hasselbeck (33)</td> <td align="right">84.5</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">25.</td> <td>Jim Kelly+ </td> <td align="right">84.4</td> <td align="right"> 1986-1996 </td> <td align="right">buf</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">26.</td> <td>Mark Brunell </td> <td align="right">84.2</td> <td align="right"> 1994-2006 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">27.</td> <td>Roger Staubach+ </td> <td align="right">83.4</td> <td align="right"> 1969-1979 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">28.</td> <td>Steve McNair </td> <td align="right">82.8</td> <td align="right"> 1995-2007 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">29.</td> <td>Brian Griese (33)</td> <td align="right">82.7</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Neil Lomax </td> <td align="right">82.7</td> <td align="right"> 1981-1988 </td> <td align="right">crd</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">31.</td> <td>Len Dawson+ </td> <td align="right">82.6</td> <td align="right"> 1957-1975 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Sonny Jurgensen+ </td> <td align="right">82.6</td> <td align="right"> 1957-1974 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">33.</td> <td>Brad Johnson (40)</td> <td align="right">82.5</td> <td align="right"> 1994-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">34.</td> <td>Ken Anderson </td> <td align="right">81.9</td> <td align="right"> 1971-1986 </td> <td align="right">cin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">35.</td> <td>Neil O'Donnell </td> <td align="right">81.8</td> <td align="right"> 1991-2003 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Bernie Kosar </td> <td align="right">81.8</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1996 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">37.</td> <td>Danny White </td> <td align="right">81.7</td> <td align="right"> 1976-1988 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">38.</td> <td>Troy Aikman+ </td> <td align="right">81.6</td> <td align="right"> 1989-2000 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">39.</td> <td>Randall Cunningham </td> <td align="right">81.5</td> <td align="right"> 1985-2001 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Dave Krieg </td> <td align="right">81.5</td> <td align="right"> 1980-1998 </td> <td align="right">6TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">41.</td> <td>Boomer Esiason </td> <td align="right">81.1</td> <td align="right"> 1984-1997 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">42.</td> <td>Warren Moon+ </td> <td align="right">80.9</td> <td align="right"> 1984-2000 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">43.</td> <td>Damon Huard (35)</td> <td align="right">80.6</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">44.</td> <td>Jeff Hostetler </td> <td align="right">80.5</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1997 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Bart Starr+ </td> <td align="right">80.5</td> <td align="right"> 1956-1971 </td> <td align="right">gnb</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">46.</td> <td>Fran Tarkenton+ </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1961-1978 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Ken O'Brien </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1984-1993 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Jeff George </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1990-2001 </td> <td align="right">5TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Jason Campbell (27)</td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 2006-2008 </td> <td align="right">was</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">50.</td> <td>Steve Beuerlein </td> <td align="right">80.3</td> <td align="right"> 1988-2003 </td> <td align="right">6TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Byron Leftwich (28)</td> <td align="right">80.3</td> <td align="right"> 2003-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">52.</td> <td>Dan Fouts+ </td> <td align="right">80.2</td> <td align="right"> 1973-1987 </td> <td align="right">sdg</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">53.</td> <td>John Elway+ </td> <td align="right">79.9</td> <td align="right"> 1983-1998 </td> <td align="right">den</td></tr></tbody></table>

Is Elway overrated, maybe so if someone contends he is the best ever or maybe even top 3, but to rely on his statistics as the only measure of his quality is misplaced. 5 Super Bowls, no other QB has played in that many. He got the job done when it mattered repeatedly and brought Denver to levels of success beyond their offensive talent. Believe your eyes, don't believe the stats.

Most over rated IMO and that I have seen:

Baseball - Ryan, Ripken, Rodriguez (mainly b/c of his post season woes)
Football - Manning, Bettis, Marino, Favre, Franco Harris
Hoops - Malone, Ewing
Futbol - Beckham, by a mile
 

DocJS

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TomGshotput said:
It is not the job of the people who play the sports to rate each other. It is the hobby of the consumer to do so. Far too many times the guy who actually BATTED against Ryan reached base. At far higher rates than the guys who batted against Clemens or Maddux or Gibson or Seaver or Grove or Johnson (Walter or Randy) or Spahn or Feller. Have you asked anyone who batter against those pitchers if they are overrated, underrated or rated accurately?

Whatever the answer is, if Ryan is rated as equal to any of them, he is overrated

Who was the the second best player in NBA history? Like I said, I no less about basketball; I also only said there was a reasonable case for Johnson being second best, but not for Bird or Erving
Click to expand...

"(Nolan) Ryan's the only guy who puts fear in me. Not because he could get me out, but because he could kill me. You just hoped to mix in a walk so you could have a good night and go 0-for-3." - Reggie Jackson​
 
TomGshotput

TomGshotput

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http://reggiejackson.com/2009/03/04/chipper/

"Hey Reggie, Who was the best pitcher you ever faced and why?"

"I cant give a single answer. So let me take a swing for ya, I faced Seaver, Lolich, Palmer,Jenkins, Marichal, Catfish Hunter, Tommy John, Jack Morris, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, and a few others that were great as well. There were guys that were tough to hit for me, Mike Caldwell, Andy Hassler, Dave LaRoche, Scott McGregor and a few more I’m sure that weren’t known to be great but were tough on me"

or this one to show how a first person account might not be the best way to judge pitchers:

"Dontrelle Willis gives me a really hard time at the plate. He has great movement on his pitches and his delivery is very deceptive" Albert Pujols

Again, who is the second best basketball player in history?
 
mamatried

mamatried

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TomGshotput said:
http://reggiejackson.com/2009/03/04/chipper/

"Hey Reggie, Who was the best pitcher you ever faced and why?"

"I cant give a single answer. So let me take a swing for ya, I faced Seaver, Lolich, Palmer,Jenkins, Marichal, Catfish Hunter, Tommy John, Jack Morris, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, and a few others that were great as well. There were guys that were tough to hit for me, Mike Caldwell, Andy Hassler, Dave LaRoche, Scott McGregor and a few more I’m sure that weren’t known to be great but were tough on me"

or this one to show how a first person account might not be the best way to judge pitchers:

"Dontrelle Willis gives me a really hard time at the plate. He has great movement on his pitches and his delivery is very deceptive" Albert Pujols

Again, who is the second best basketball player in history?
Click to expand...

Why all the hate for Magic??? IMO he WAS the second best player in NBA history. And a close second at that. He (along with Larry Bird, who is the third or fourth best player, before or after Russell) revolutionized the game. He did things at point guard that no one before him dreamed of doing.

Not counting his year with Oscar Robertson, how many championships did Kareem (speaking of overrated) win without Magic? Hmmm???
 
HAT

HAT

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fhmesq44 said:
There are three types of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics. All that information should tell you is that stats lie, especially when it comes to QBs. There are plenty of reasons why Elway's numbers weren't great early in his career, including, they were a down field passing team unlike Young/Montana and SF, his RBs were HORRENDOUS and his WRs weren't much better. The leading rushers on his teams pre Davis were Sammy Winder (for 5 seasons, topped 800 once in his career), Dorsett, Bobby Humphrey, Gaston Green, Rod Bernstine and Leonard Russell. His leading WRs were Steve Watson, Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Michael Young. QB rating doesn't take into account his rushing ability. He also took 3 pretty mediocre teams to the Super Bowl (granted, they got smashed, but none were near Super Bowl quality teams).

All a comparison to Lomax and Krieg does is provide proof the stats lie to anyone who saw the three of them play regularly. QB Rating can't be used as the sole measure of quality. Take a gander at the all time QB Rating leaders. There are a load of average, some below average QBs and some downright poor QBs in the top 50.

<table><tbody><tr><td align="right">1.</td> <td>Steve Young+ </td> <td align="right">96.8</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1999 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">2.</td> <td>Peyton Manning (32)</td> <td align="right">94.7</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">clt</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Tony Romo (28)</td> <td align="right">94.7</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">4.</td> <td>Kurt Warner (37)</td> <td align="right">93.8</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">5.</td> <td>Tom Brady (31)</td> <td align="right">92.9</td> <td align="right"> 2000-2008 </td> <td align="right">nwe</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Philip Rivers (27)</td> <td align="right">92.9</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">sdg</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">7.</td> <td>Joe Montana+ </td> <td align="right">92.3</td> <td align="right"> 1979-1994 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">8.</td> <td>Chad Pennington (32)</td> <td align="right">90.6</td> <td align="right"> 2000-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">9.</td> <td>Drew Brees (29)</td> <td align="right">89.4</td> <td align="right"> 2001-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Ben Roethlisberger (26)</td> <td align="right">89.4</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">pit</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">11.</td> <td>Daunte Culpepper (31)</td> <td align="right">89.0</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">12.</td> <td>Carson Palmer (29)</td> <td align="right">88.9</td> <td align="right"> 2004-2008 </td> <td align="right">cin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">13.</td> <td>Jeff Garcia (38)</td> <td align="right">87.5</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">5TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">14.</td> <td>Jay Cutler (25)</td> <td align="right">87.1</td> <td align="right"> 2006-2008 </td> <td align="right">den</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">15.</td> <td>Otto Graham+ </td> <td align="right">86.6</td> <td align="right"> 1946-1955 </td> <td align="right">cle</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">16.</td> <td>Dan Marino+ </td> <td align="right">86.4</td> <td align="right"> 1983-1999 </td> <td align="right">mia</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">17.</td> <td>Trent Green (38)</td> <td align="right">86.0</td> <td align="right"> 1997-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">18.</td> <td>Donovan McNabb (32)</td> <td align="right">85.9</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">phi</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">19.</td> <td>Marc Bulger (31)</td> <td align="right">85.6</td> <td align="right"> 2002-2008 </td> <td align="right">ram</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">20.</td> <td>David Garrard (30)</td> <td align="right">85.4</td> <td align="right"> 2002-2008 </td> <td align="right">jax</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Brett Favre (39)</td> <td align="right">85.4</td> <td align="right"> 1991-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">22.</td> <td>Jake Delhomme (33)</td> <td align="right">85.1</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">23.</td> <td>Rich Gannon </td> <td align="right">84.7</td> <td align="right"> 1987-2004 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">24.</td> <td>Matt Hasselbeck (33)</td> <td align="right">84.5</td> <td align="right"> 1999-2008 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">25.</td> <td>Jim Kelly+ </td> <td align="right">84.4</td> <td align="right"> 1986-1996 </td> <td align="right">buf</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">26.</td> <td>Mark Brunell </td> <td align="right">84.2</td> <td align="right"> 1994-2006 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">27.</td> <td>Roger Staubach+ </td> <td align="right">83.4</td> <td align="right"> 1969-1979 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">28.</td> <td>Steve McNair </td> <td align="right">82.8</td> <td align="right"> 1995-2007 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">29.</td> <td>Brian Griese (33)</td> <td align="right">82.7</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Neil Lomax </td> <td align="right">82.7</td> <td align="right"> 1981-1988 </td> <td align="right">crd</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">31.</td> <td>Len Dawson+ </td> <td align="right">82.6</td> <td align="right"> 1957-1975 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Sonny Jurgensen+ </td> <td align="right">82.6</td> <td align="right"> 1957-1974 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">33.</td> <td>Brad Johnson (40)</td> <td align="right">82.5</td> <td align="right"> 1994-2008 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">34.</td> <td>Ken Anderson </td> <td align="right">81.9</td> <td align="right"> 1971-1986 </td> <td align="right">cin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">35.</td> <td>Neil O'Donnell </td> <td align="right">81.8</td> <td align="right"> 1991-2003 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Bernie Kosar </td> <td align="right">81.8</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1996 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">37.</td> <td>Danny White </td> <td align="right">81.7</td> <td align="right"> 1976-1988 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">38.</td> <td>Troy Aikman+ </td> <td align="right">81.6</td> <td align="right"> 1989-2000 </td> <td align="right">dal</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">39.</td> <td>Randall Cunningham </td> <td align="right">81.5</td> <td align="right"> 1985-2001 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Dave Krieg </td> <td align="right">81.5</td> <td align="right"> 1980-1998 </td> <td align="right">6TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">41.</td> <td>Boomer Esiason </td> <td align="right">81.1</td> <td align="right"> 1984-1997 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">42.</td> <td>Warren Moon+ </td> <td align="right">80.9</td> <td align="right"> 1984-2000 </td> <td align="right">4TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">43.</td> <td>Damon Huard (35)</td> <td align="right">80.6</td> <td align="right"> 1998-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">44.</td> <td>Jeff Hostetler </td> <td align="right">80.5</td> <td align="right"> 1985-1997 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Bart Starr+ </td> <td align="right">80.5</td> <td align="right"> 1956-1971 </td> <td align="right">gnb</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">46.</td> <td>Fran Tarkenton+ </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1961-1978 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Ken O'Brien </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1984-1993 </td> <td align="right">2TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Jeff George </td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 1990-2001 </td> <td align="right">5TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Jason Campbell (27)</td> <td align="right">80.4</td> <td align="right"> 2006-2008 </td> <td align="right">was</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">50.</td> <td>Steve Beuerlein </td> <td align="right">80.3</td> <td align="right"> 1988-2003 </td> <td align="right">6TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
</td> <td>Byron Leftwich (28)</td> <td align="right">80.3</td> <td align="right"> 2003-2008 </td> <td align="right">3TM</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">52.</td> <td>Dan Fouts+ </td> <td align="right">80.2</td> <td align="right"> 1973-1987 </td> <td align="right">sdg</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">53.</td> <td>John Elway+ </td> <td align="right">79.9</td> <td align="right"> 1983-1998 </td> <td align="right">den</td></tr></tbody></table>

Is Elway overrated, maybe so if someone contends he is the best ever or maybe even top 3, but to rely on his statistics as the only measure of his quality is misplaced. 5 Super Bowls, no other QB has played in that many. He got the job done when it mattered repeatedly and brought Denver to levels of success beyond their offensive talent. Believe your eyes, don't believe the stats.

Most over rated IMO and that I have seen:

Baseball - Ryan, Ripken, Rodriguez (mainly b/c of his post season woes)
Football - Manning, Bettis, Marino, Favre, Franco Harris
Hoops - Malone, Ewing
Futbol - Beckham, by a mile
Click to expand...

Excellent post...5 superbowls could've easily been 6 or 7.

Denver held the mighty Bills to just 10 points in the '91-'92 AFCCG
(The same Bills who scored 51, 29 & 30 in their other 3 AFCCG's during the 4 consecutive run).....But Elway got hurt and Kubiak finished up and Denver lost 10-7

Also...I still think the '96 team was better than '97 & '98 but they screwed the pooch and lost to the Jags early in the PO's.
 
HAT

HAT

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Also....according to that list:

Jay Cutler>Elway
Brian Griese>Elway

LOL....I'm sure Elway sleeps better at night knowing he was at least better than Plummer & Bubby!
 

soli

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TomGshotput said:
If we all agree Iverson is overrated, we all need to reconsider exactly where he is typically rated

Ali is a good candidate. A huge fan of him, but only reason he went 2-1 against Frazier is because the guy went blind in the middle of the fight. If not for that there is no case for him even being considered the best ever
Click to expand...

I would bet the farm if you was in there with Ali in his prime you would be blind in the beginning of the fight. I'm not really understanding your case here...:):)
 
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