God Doesn't Prevent Terrible Things Because...

[Illini]

I just bumped it to 67%.. alot of smart and reasonable people here

I have atheist friends, one in particular that I'm very close to. So don't take this personally. But what is logical or reasonable about believing that absolute nothingness, all of a sudden and with no cause, exploded into matter and started expanding. That the result of that explosion was a universe with massive stars thousands of light years apart, and that an earth came into being, acting like a giant spaceship continually orbiting a random star with no pilot, never going off course, and always maintaining the absolute perfect distance to be just warm enough and just cold enough to sustain life. How is there no pilot? How are there laws of mathematics and physics and gravity, with no law giver? How is all this stuff not only out there, but visible because healthy human beings have two highly sophisticated HD cameras called eyes that transmit signals to the brain to produce a visual image of what can be seen in this dimension? Nevermind the human organs and processes, like breathing, digesting, sleep and sex. We need food, and there just happens to be things like bananas, watermelons, and peaches that are just here to meet those needs. And they are delicious, and our tongue sends sensors to our brain to let us experience their wonderful taste.

How is that logical and reasonable? Just asking, I'm not trying to prove anything, just wondering how people that look at the world through an athestic lens can dismiss such evidence of VERY intelligent design. I mean, really? No pilot controlling this awesome spaceship we live on?

 

[RunLeeRun]

I paid close attention to Hitchens, and it's unfortunate he passed. I always liked listening to the guy, even though I disagreed with him. Guy hated God more than anyone I've heard. He flat out got angry talking about the God of the Bible. If he didn't exist and was a fairy tale, why so much anger? Yet, he always claimed he didn't believe. Thus, I said what I said.

Guy was witty though, and I think was a very decent person that didn't hate believers as people at all.

Not a Hitchens expert (am a fan), but I think his anger was directed at extremists that had a total disregard for life and were determined on destroying Earth because it meant getting closer to a second coming. I don't think the hate was directed at the average joe, though I always got the sense that he talked down to people with an inferior intelligence, which I enjoyed.

 

[RunLeeRun]

But what is logical or reasonable about believing that absolute nothingness, all of a sudden and with no cause, exploded into matter and started expanding.

Physicists believe that nothing has energy, too. The expansion of the Universe can't be explained unless there is a certain amount of matter. Most of that matter is believed to be Dark Energy.

 

[GoSooners]

I have atheist friends, one in particular that I'm very close to. So don't take this personally. But what is logical or reasonable about believing that absolute nothingness, all of a sudden and with no cause, exploded into matter and started expanding. That the result of that explosion was a universe with massive stars thousands of light years apart, and that an earth came into being, acting like a giant spaceship continually orbiting a random star with no pilot, never going off course, and always maintaining the absolute perfect distance to be just warm enough and just cold enough to sustain life. How is there no pilot? How are there laws of mathematics and physics and gravity, with no law giver? How is all this stuff not only out there, but visible because healthy human beings have two highly sophisticated HD cameras called eyes that transmit signals to the brain to produce a visual image of what can be seen in this dimension? Nevermind the human organs and processes, like breathing, digesting, sleep and sex. We need food, and there just happens to be things like bananas, watermelons, and peaches that are just here to meet those needs. And they are delicious, and our tongue sends sensors to our brain to let us experience their wonderful taste.

How is that logical and reasonable? Just asking, I'm not trying to prove anything, just wondering how people that look at the world through an athestic lens can dismiss such evidence of VERY intelligent design. I mean, really? No pilot controlling this awesome spaceship we live on?

I think it would be foolish to deny the existence of laws of nature. If that is what we were talking about here when we say God, then I don't think we would have atheists, because it would be hard to give a logical argument against it. But what you are talking about with the laws of nature and our planet and universe is much different than the theological god(s) that people believe in. I believe if there is a God (Super Being) that created the universe and rules over the laws of nature, my bet is it would exist in a way that would be well beyond our comprehension or understanding. I think it's also always been understood (according to our religion) that God is omnipresent, all powerful and knowing all things. But what would happen to this Judeo-Christian religion if we found out that this Being didn't have all of these properties? That it was a God who invented the universe, but is indifferent to prayer. Or even worse, was unaware of the existence of humans that came in after his universe was created? Suppose there is a God who is unable to do anything about the natural disasters on Earth or the billions and billions of other planets out there that are sure to have the same characteristics of earth? The possibilities are endless. But I much prefer to think of what could be out there that is totally beyond our understanding as opposed to our earthly version of God. You know, the one with the oversize white guy with a white beard sitting in a big chair on a cloud in the sky.

 

[Illini]

I think it would be foolish to deny the existence of laws of nature. If that is what we were talking about here when we say God, then I don't think we would have atheists, because it would be hard to give a logical argument against it. But what you are talking about with the laws of nature and our planet and universe is much different than the theological god(s) that people believe in. I believe if there is a God (Super Being) that created the universe and rules over the laws of nature, my bet is it would exist in a way that would be well beyond our comprehension or understanding. I think it's also always been understood (according to our religion) that God is omnipresent, all powerful and knowing all things. But what would happen to this Judeo-Christian religion if we found out that this Being didn't have all of these properties? That it was a God who invented the universe, but is indifferent to prayer. Or even worse, was unaware of the existence of humans that came in after his universe was created? Suppose there is a God who is unable to do anything about the natural disasters on Earth or the billions and billions of other planets out there that are sure to have the same characteristics of earth? The possibilities are endless. But I much prefer to think of what could be out there that is totally beyond our understanding as opposed to our earthly version of God. You know, the one with the oversize white guy with a white beard sitting in a big chair on a cloud in the sky.

I hear you, and on one hand, I agree in large part with what you are saying. I disagree in the sense that I feel that all the order points to one supreme all powerful being that created the order and will be forever sovereign ruler of every single thing in creation. The awesome being that has the power to create what has been created does not somehow come under the rule of the created universe. I totally agree that in large part, most of that being is unknowable in this plane of existence. We can only see the creation, search the evidence and draw our own conclusion as to what is behind everything. I don't know much, and I have tons of questions about the Bible, even though I ultimately put my faith in the God of it. To me, the worldview that it presents makes the most sense. That this world is fallen and temporarily under the rule of evil, even though God is ultimately sovereign over everything, including the evil. That man is sinful, and that God is merciful and redemption is possible. People may criticize me and some may mock me, but we all ultimately go all in on our own conclusion. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but it really doesn't matter what anyone believes, if what they believe is not true. I believe that I have the truth, but I can't prove it and won't try to. Faith is not intellectual suicide, there are many intelligent people that believe. I don't possibly think that I know even 1% of all there is to know about a God that created a universe with billions of galaxies. But I believe that life on earth is only here because he created it, and that he cares about human beings over everything else in the creation. My conscience knows that there is right and wrong.....there is moral law. To me, there has to be a moral law giver. I know that I am guilty of breaking that law, and I feel I'd be foolish to believe that none of that matters. I haven't done anything that everyone hasn't done, and I'm good by human standards. But what is the standard? Everyone thinks that they have met the standard because they haven't killed anyone. I dunno, does someone who is good but drinks too much one night and kills someone unintentionally in a DUI accident a murderer? Of course not, but the friends and relatives of the dead will always condemn that person in most cases. I think the Bible's standard is true. Everyone, no matter how good you are, is still tainted by sin. We all need a redeemer.

Sorry if you feel this was preaching. I'm just saying that my thought processes are like this. I have doubts, but my conclusions are these.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

I have atheist friends, one in particular that I'm very close to. So don't take this personally. But what is logical or reasonable about believing that absolute nothingness, all of a sudden and with no cause, exploded into matter and started expanding. That the result of that explosion was a universe with massive stars thousands of light years apart, and that an earth came into being, acting like a giant spaceship continually orbiting a random star with no pilot, never going off course, and always maintaining the absolute perfect distance to be just warm enough and just cold enough to sustain life. How is there no pilot? How are there laws of mathematics and physics and gravity, with no law giver? How is all this stuff not only out there, but visible because healthy human beings have two highly sophisticated HD cameras called eyes that transmit signals to the brain to produce a visual image of what can be seen in this dimension? Nevermind the human organs and processes, like breathing, digesting, sleep and sex. We need food, and there just happens to be things like bananas, watermelons, and peaches that are just here to meet those needs. And they are delicious, and our tongue sends sensors to our brain to let us experience their wonderful taste.

How is that logical and reasonable? Just asking, I'm not trying to prove anything, just wondering how people that look at the world through an athestic lens can dismiss such evidence of VERY intelligent design. I mean, really? No pilot controlling this awesome spaceship we live on?

You're basic argument is "I don't understand how all this got started so it must have been god". That's a common philosophical argument called "God of the Gaps" which is a variation of arguing from ignorance.

 

[festeringZit]

You're basic argument is "I don't understand how all this got started so it must have been god". That's a common philosophical argument called "God of the Gaps" which is a variation of arguing from ignorance.

That's not what he is saying at all, though he is admitting he doesn't understand it all, as none of us do.

What he is saying is that highly designed things are created and designed by a designer. It's very simple.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

That's not what he is saying at all, though he is admitting he doesn't understand it all, as none of us do.

What he is saying is that highly designed things are created and designed by a designer. It's very simple.

And he's saying that because we don't have a definitive scientific explanation that would rule out the need for a god.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

Let me explain a little further. The "we don't know so it had to be god" argument is very weak. In the words of Neil deGrasse Tyson:

"If that's how you want to invoke your evidence for god, then god is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance."

Before there was science/natural philosophy, a god was used to explain everything that was unexplained because the science wasn't there to provide the real explanation. Erupting volcano? The volcano god must be angry. Let's sacrifice a virgin to appease him. Now we know that volcanoes are an opening in the Earth's crust where tectonic plates are converging that allows magma to escape.

Thunder and lightening is another phenomena that ancient people explained by filling in a god or gods in the gaps of their knowledge. There are countless gods of thunder throughout many ancient cultures. Now today we know that thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of air and lightening is an electrical discharge. No need for god.

The human brain is wired to find causes for every effect. Now so many questions have been answered by science- questions that have eliminated the need for a god as a cause. The biggest questions we have left are where did we come from and why are we here. Question that science may never be able to provide a definitive answer for...therefore...Ta Da! God must have done it.

 

[CHOPTALK]

You're basic argument is "I don't understand how all this got started so it must have been god". That's a common philosophical argument called "God of the Gaps" which is a variation of arguing from ignorance.

Yes there is God of the Gaps but there is also science of the gaps to.

For everything science cant explain the people on the other side just assume that its science.

The people on the other side when making fun of the people that just assume the unknown is God, those same people make the same assumptions as the God people. Only difference is they attribute the unknown to science instead of God.

Unknown is unknown.

I will be the first to admit that my belief in the God of the Bible(especially the Old Testament God) has caused me to evaluate myself and question many things I have believed my whole life.
But my belief in intelligent design and a higher power has never been stronger.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

Yes there is God of the Gaps but there is also science of the gaps to.

For everything science cant explain the people on the other side just assume that its science.

The people on the other side when making fun of the people that just assume the unknown is God, those same people make the same assumptions as the God people. Only difference is they attribute the unknown to science instead of God.

Unknown is unknown.

The difference is that one is invoking the supernatural and relying on faith. Nearly every single "gap" that has ever existed and filled by a god of some sort has resulted in an eventual naturalist explanation. Theology always loses. Always. There is no reason to believe that the answers to where did we come from will be any different.

 

[festeringZit]

The difference is that one is invoking the supernatural and relying on faith. Nearly every single "gap" that has ever existed and filled by a god of some sort has resulted in an eventual naturalist explanation. Theology always loses. Always. There is no reason to believe that the answers to where did we come from will be any different.

Bullshit.

 

[CHOPTALK]

The difference is that one is invoking the supernatural and relying on faith. Nearly every single "gap" that has ever existed and filled by a god of some sort has resulted in an eventual naturalist explanation. Theology always loses. Always. There is no reason to believe that the answers to where did we come from will be any different.

None of the most important things about the story of Christ have been disproven by science yet.
Yes its been proven that the Bible has many scientific errors in it that cant be disputed.
But science has yet to put any kind of a dent into the core message of the God and Christ.
Until that happens we are still at square one.

The one thing science has proven is the fact that the Bible is not without error.

But I dont think a person is required to believe the entire Bible in order to believe in God himself.

 

[REDEYE]

I have atheist friends, one in particular that I'm very close to. So don't take this personally. But what is logical or reasonable about believing that absolute nothingness, all of a sudden and with no cause, exploded into matter and started expanding. That the result of that explosion was a universe with massive stars thousands of light years apart, and that an earth came into being, acting like a giant spaceship continually orbiting a random star with no pilot, never going off course, and always maintaining the absolute perfect distance to be just warm enough and just cold enough to sustain life. How is there no pilot? How are there laws of mathematics and physics and gravity, with no law giver? How is all this stuff not only out there, but visible because healthy human beings have two highly sophisticated HD cameras called eyes that transmit signals to the brain to produce a visual image of what can be seen in this dimension? Nevermind the human organs and processes, like breathing, digesting, sleep and sex. We need food, and there just happens to be things like bananas, watermelons, and peaches that are just here to meet those needs. And they are delicious, and our tongue sends sensors to our brain to let us experience their wonderful taste.

How is that logical and reasonable? Just asking, I'm not trying to prove anything, just wondering how people that look at the world through an athestic lens can dismiss such evidence of VERY intelligent design. I mean, really? No pilot controlling this awesome spaceship we live on?

Illini, my post might have come off wrong to someone like yourself that believes in God.. last thing I would ever try to do is convince anyone what they should believe in. Nothing wrong with your believes....Alot of real good people believe in God so more power to them and yourself..I just happen to strongly believe in other possibilities...Science is at the top of the list...I'm open minded to alot of theories....fact is I am at peace with myself in my beliefs.

 

[wolfie_cr]

Nevermind the human organs and processes, like breathing, digesting, sleep and sex. We need food, and there just happens to be things like bananas, watermelons, and peaches that are just here to meet those needs. And they are delicious, and our tongue sends sensors to our brain to let us experience their wonderful taste.

How is that logical and reasonable?

its the other way around, if you wanted things that kill you , you would die quickly, if you are attracted to cyanide and you found it delicious you would be gone. ZIP no kids, dead. on the other hand if you like things that are good for you , you survive and not only that , you thrive, you are more likely to live longer , have more kids , propagate these same traits, so who is left after 1 generation of cyanide lovers and banana lovers?

it makes perfect sense to me that people are attracted to things that are good for them (you know, water, food, good stuff) instead of things that can potentially kill you (cyanide, sulfuric acid, etc)

god or no god, evolution can explain that easily. Yes, I suppose you could think of a god that somehow directs you to things that are good for you, same for dogs, cats, cochroaches, fungii etc.......some creatures would wonder what would happen if they liked oxygen which is poison to them and to wonder what would happen if they didnt like sulphur at 150 C blown directly in front of them....and the those beetles that need shit to put their eggs in, they must thing dog shit is the best thing in the planet....they swim in it. Yes, all creatures found what they need to be desirable as if they didnt, they would die.

 

[wolfie_cr]

But I believe that life on earth is only here because he created it, and that he cares about human beings over everything else in the creation.

welcome to the intergalactic religious wars.........just wait until the aliens hear this that god cares about us more than he cares about them , do we see a theme in this greek tragedy?