Why won't you answer the question?
As far as "Would NE win SB's in XYZ year w/o BB"....Umm, if they had Pete Carroll or Tony Dungy instead of BB, they would be a lot worse team for the entirety of the 20 years because BB is a better coach than those guys (in my opinion)....What's that have to do with anything? I never said he wasn't a great coach. I said elite QB's are more valuable than him.
Brady or BB is easy for me because I'd take all elite QB's over BB. I don't think he's the most important person in the NFL.
So again, for the 3rd time....Do you think BB is more valuable than other guys you deem to be elite QB's? Or you just think he's more valuable than Brady?
That question kinda ends the argument for most logical people because they would have to say
A. Belichick is more valuable than elite QB's
B. Tom Brady isn't 1, thus BB more valuable than him
Neither 1 is something most think is true, so I dunno how the calculus lands on him being more valuable than Brady. Would Brady win less without him? Yeah, so? BB has won jack shit without Brady and he's coached 8 full years without him.
As far as "Would NE win SB's in XYZ year w/o BB"....Umm, if they had Pete Carroll or Tony Dungy instead of BB, they would be a lot worse team for the entirety of the 20 years because BB is a better coach than those guys (in my opinion)....What's that have to do with anything? I never said he wasn't a great coach. I said elite QB's are more valuable than him.
Brady or BB is easy for me because I'd take all elite QB's over BB. I don't think he's the most important person in the NFL.
So again, for the 3rd time....Do you think BB is more valuable than other guys you deem to be elite QB's? Or you just think he's more valuable than Brady?
That question kinda ends the argument for most logical people because they would have to say
A. Belichick is more valuable than elite QB's
B. Tom Brady isn't 1, thus BB more valuable than him
Neither 1 is something most think is true, so I dunno how the calculus lands on him being more valuable than Brady. Would Brady win less without him? Yeah, so? BB has won jack shit without Brady and he's coached 8 full years without him.
Pretty sure I answered that by saying I would take the qb. So I would take Mahomes or Manning over Belichick. My original point from whenever this thread started was there would be no TB without BB. If you were to say the Patriots don't win those first 2 SB's without BB than it's not a stretch to say Tom Brady doesn't become who he is. Yea it's hypothetical but the op was who had a larger impact on each other's career.
Right here you say BB because Brady could be replaced. Thus you think BB was more valuable. This statement doesn't jibe with what you just said.
If he can be replaced so easily, how is he elite? BB can just get some other geek off the street and have success.
As far as "No TB w/o BB"...I don't really understand that argument either, great players aren't allowed to get good coaching or something? He's still more valuable even if BB enhanced his career. Judging by BB's record in almost 130 games w/o Brady, Brady enhanced his significantly more.
Every player, every ex-player, every man who's ever played for Belichick talks about his incredible game preparation, there's simply no match
Players see this, the numbers prove this, and I love Tom Brady
I'll call the two of them soulmates on the football field. They worked great together. Brady understood the Belichick way and lived by it, and he could execute his offense to perfection
Players see this, the numbers prove this, and I love Tom Brady
I'll call the two of them soulmates on the football field. They worked great together. Brady understood the Belichick way and lived by it, and he could execute his offense to perfection
Same question to you then
A. Is Belichick more valuable than elite QBs?
B. If not, is Tom Brady not an elite QB?
Also, lol @ TB can't beat the Seahawks in the playoffs. Yeah, that's a real Tyson/Spinks there.
And who cares if he doesn't win another superbowl, he's 43. The question was who was more valuable for NE.
Answer to A) is Belichick is more valuable.
Answer to B) is Tom Brady is, errr was an elite QB.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Coaching is the most underrated position in sports. If you doubt this, look what Vrabel has done with a stiff like Tannehill, who btw out-coached Belichick and beat Brady last year in the playoffs.
Answer to A) is Belichick is more valuable.
Answer to B) is Tom Brady is (was) an elite QB.
Coaching is the most underrated position in sports. If you doubt this, look what Vrabel has done with a stiff like Tannehill, who btw out-coached Belichick and beat Brady last year in the playoffs.
I don't agree with that, but if the answer to A is that Belichick is more valuable than elite QB's then it atleast makes sense to say BB > Brady. That is atleast the position you have to take. That especially seems like a tough sell right now. I can't imagine the Seahawks trading Wilson for Belichick, or if Reid retired tomorrow Belichick for Mahomes. Peyton Manning for Belichick 10 years ago (assuming Brady wasn't already on NE) It just wouldn't be an option.
Coaching is important but elite QB/players matter more. I'm not gonna rehash every point I made in the thread but I think given BB's record over a rather large sample w/o Brady as well as the regression other elite coaches have had when they didn't have elite talent around them (Knoll, Jimmy Johnson, Shanahan, guys who coached long enough to be humbled) that is pretty compelling evidence.
Jims and Joes > Xs and Os
Well for one, I think Brady is (was) better than Peyton Manning. Not by as much as others do, but I do think he's better.
But that's just saying BB enhanced Brady's career and helped him win 6. Dynamic duo. Doesn't mean he is better than elite QB's.
You gotta attempt to isolate the variables. Top QB's win double digit games every year for the most part going back a good bit. Can't really say the same for the top coaches as well as BB when he hasn't had Brady. I don't think someone like BB in a neutral spot has as much value for 15 years as someone like Peyton Manning. I think every GM would say lemme start with Peyton and I'll figure the rest out.
Football is played with 50 man rosters and a salary cap. Belichick is the Grand Master of the game
Lets say he is 10 years younger, you would take him over Mahomes for the next 10 years? Or rather start a team with him than Manning 15-20 years ago?
I'd take him over all the other coaches but given his recent drafting, he isn't without weaknesses. Those weaknesses are just papered over very well with an elite QB.
That's been my side of the little debate for years, however, it is funny now BB is almost getting underrated now. I still clearly think he is the best coach and obviously massively instrumental in Brady success.
So you would take him over Brady, he's more important than him. But you can't say if you would take him over other elite QB's?
Why? Shouldn't he clearly be better than them? He's better than Brady.
He's either better than elite QB's or he isn't. I don't think it is that hypothetical. It's just an opinion of who you think is more valuable. BB or Manning, BB or Mahomes etc
If BB is more valuable to a team than elite QB's then I get thinking he's better than Brady. I just disagree with it. Maybe another 100 games of .500 ball will convince people though
....Lets hope not.Manning was just one example. There are a LOT of elite QBs ( Brett Favre to Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees to even a guy like Philip Rivers) who could beat any given team on any given day, put up huge numbers year in and year out, but then would come up short for one reason or another when games really counted.
The reason? Bill Belichick and his impeccable game prep and planning, usually neutralizing the other team's greatest strength.
NE had the best D in the NFL when they won their last title in 2019, so scratch that one.
How many SBs would Brady have won if he had, say...any decent coach like - off the top of my head - Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Marty Schottenheimer...pick your coach?
Not as many as with Bill Belichick. 2...3 maybe? Brady IS an elite QB, but BB made him the GOAT.
The reason? Bill Belichick and his impeccable game prep and planning, usually neutralizing the other team's greatest strength.
NE had the best D in the NFL when they won their last title in 2019, so scratch that one.
How many SBs would Brady have won if he had, say...any decent coach like - off the top of my head - Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Marty Schottenheimer...pick your coach?
Not as many as with Bill Belichick. 2...3 maybe? Brady IS an elite QB, but BB made him the GOAT.
Yeah, he enhanced him. No one is saying he didn't. Although, having a very good QB also allows you to tailor your defense around him. You know you will have leads more, you know you can gamble more, you're on the field less.
But how many would BB win without an elite QB over the same duration? Also less. I know people will say oh he would find 1 and coach him up, I think he's finding out right now that is a lot harder than it looks.
BB is 58-69 without Brady. I've gone over in this thread those were some tough spots (Cleveland team fading when he tookover, 1st yr in NE, this year) but not exactly a small sample and irrelevant either. 2 playoff games in 8 seasons (including this year)
Where was the prep and gameplan those days? Coaching is just a nasty bitch without elite players.
