Brady or Belichick

[PatsFan1283]

PatsFan, if Lombardi is a legend (he is), what does that make Belichick? Lombardi, Parcells, Belichick, Saban...the greats all coach the same way.

Once you get to this level, talent only goes so far. Every team has 'talent', relatively speaking - professional football players are the best of the best. So it becomes about mental toughness, discipline, physical preparation and execution under pressure. Every player has their assignment and slotted properly to the best of their abilities - "DO YOUR JOB!" Individual stats are for the fantasy nerds, not real football players.

I've seen serious sports analysts already comparing Mac Jones to a young Tom Brady which is outrageous, but it does show Belichick is looking for certain traits in a QB and already molding Mac into a similar player.

As for any rogue diva who refuses to "buy in"...well, sometimes you have to sacrifice good talent in the short term to build that winning culture over the long term. When a player puts on a New England Patriots uniform, he knows exactly what to expect. If at some point his ego gets the better of him or becomes too greedy, he's shown the door. We've seen Belichick do this over and over with scrubs to Pro-Bowlers. And now, most recently - gasp! - Tom Brady, The Living Legend himself!

And so it was... game over for Pats fans facing a miserable 5+ year rebuild with no guarantees for success, like every other franchise.

Flash forward one year and the GOAT has them surging top of their division and talk of league once again.

It's not an accident and not a religion. It's just damn old school sound fundamental football.

This current post of mine has nothing to do with Bill Belichick, as I think he is >>>>>>> any other coach of his era by a fairly decent margin and I wouldn't put him and Parcells in the same tier (even though I do think Parcells was a great coach) BB is in a tier all his own for modern coaches, besides maybe Walsh (although Walsh left at the right time, whereas BB seems to still be ticking in the post-Brady era so even that I'd favor BB)

But if the greats all coach the same way and they mold talent and do all that awesome stuff you just said like preparation, mental toughness, why did Parcells not win a playoff game from 1999 to 2006?

All that shit couldn't get him a win in 8 years? Why was Knoll a 500 coach in the 80s? Why did Shanny plummet after Elway? Shula won jack with Dan Marino. This formula you speak of seems to not be so durable when these guys struggle to replenish talent.

Sup with that?

 

[Michelangelo]

You can’t be serious…. I like BB just as much as the next guy but you talk about the GOAT QB like he was a bum before BB got him. Come on dude the kid could flat out play, showed that at every level. BB didn’t give him the brain or arm or drive to do what he accomplished in his career. He just went to another team and won the damn SB. He was flat out lucky to have picked Brady.

I never said TB12 was a bum. I said that he was on the cusp of NFL irrevelancy.

I have an aquaintance who graduated on the 1980 Georgia national championship team, the one Herschel Walker played on. He was one of the starting corners. Must have been a prety damned good player, right. A year after graduating he was a salesman for a conglomerate of paper mills. If they have a brain and they can speak and get along that's what becomes of many of those "almost made the NFL guys". They become salesman for solid companies who recruit them.

Here are the quarterbacks drafted in the 2000 draft with Tom Brady:

1-18 NYJ Chad Pennington

3-65 SFo Giovanni Carmazzi
3-75 Balt Chris Redman

5-163 Pit Tee Martin

6-168 NOr Mark Bulger
6-183 Clev Spergon Wynn
6-199 Tom Brady

7-202 Wash Tom Husak
7-205 SDo JaJuan Seider
7-212 SFo Tim Rattay
7-214 Denv Jarvis Jacksonn
7-234 TBy Joe Hamilton

You get the point yet? If it weren't for Billy B drafting Tom Brady. If it weren't for Billy B's tutelage of Tom Brady, Tom Brady may well have fallen into the same abyss as the rest of those guys.

Name me any other sixth round QB taken in ANY draft class who had any NFL relevancy.

This year has thusfar been a good example of how Billy B brings young QBs along once he gets one he can work with. I heard so much kvetching about how Billy B was insulting Mac Jones, showing him no confidence, ruining his confidence, ya, ya, ya by only allowing him to throw three passes the other night in the biggest game of his young career. Did the Patriots win? Yes. The message from Billy B to his young QB AND his teammates was that nobody is bigger than the team and the team is on the field, not for individual glory, but to win the game. And win it as a team, whatever that takes within the rules.

I hear others complaining that Billy B won't let his young QB throw down the field. Do you remember early Tom Brady? Dink and dunk. Success. Belichick brought him along in Belichick's way. Tom Brady was the perfect student. He learned and expanded his game under Billy B. Most importantly he learned the indelible lesson of team first. That's why he kept rewriting his contract to make salary cap room for other team mates. Mac Jones is learning those same lessons. From the same teacher.

Brady excelled under the coaching of Belichick. Belichick often took no name offensive linemen and trained them up. Up to protect Brady. And Belichick also gave Brady pretty good defenses to do their share for team success. Let's not forget Adam Vinateiri and his clutch FG kicking over any of Brady's years.

Brady is the GOAT. But he learned to be the GOAT while being taught the WHOLE game from the best coach of all time who drafted him and made him relevant.

I'll say it again. Bill Belichick over ANY player in the NFL if I'm starting a team.

 

[PatsFan1283]

"What would happen to Tom Brady" if not for being drafted by NE is getting a bit too hypothetical but during that era a lot of QB's with little fanfare coming into the league had relevancy. Marc Bulger was a 6th round pick in the same draft as Brady and had a pretty good career before injuries. Matt Hasselbeck was a 6th rd pick in the '98 draft 3 years before. He obviously had a good career and with a little better ref luck, may have won a ring. Lot of lower drafted/undrafted guys made it in that era.......It just wasn't rare to come out of nowhere in that era.

It wasn't like now where it is basically 1st rd or nothing, pretty rare to make it if you weren't a 1st rounder now ('12 Wilson probably last guy to do so unless you wanna include Kirk Cousins in that same draft but even that is almost 10 years ago now) Process has just become so much more efficient over time. Prescott 3rd rd as well, but again, rare.

 

[Michelangelo]

OK. You found one - Matt Hasslebeck. Relevant yes. Great, no. Who else?

The vast majority never even took an NFL snap. Several others were lucky enough to get a couple of starts before they became irrelevant.

Had Brady gone undrafted, or gone in the seventh round of his draft to another team there is a much greater probability that only college football aficionados would even recognize his name.

You refuse to even consider that a coach could be more valuable than a great player, PF1283. We've been through this before.

You're starting a team. You have your choice of any current player or coach. Which player in today's NFL would you take ahead of Belichick and how is that player going to have more value to the TEAM than Belichick?

 

[Avocado33]

What does being the clear best coach of all time have to do with who brings more value to the team success?

Is anyone disputing that Bill is the greatest coach? Being the greatest coach simply means more than being the greatest coach

 

[PatsFan1283]

OK. You found one - Matt Hasslebeck. Relevant yes. Great, no. Who else?

The vast majority never even took an NFL snap. Several others were lucky enough to get a couple of starts before they became irrelevant.

Had Brady gone undrafted, or gone in the seventh round of his draft to another team there is a much greater probability that only college football aficionados would even recognize his name.

You refuse to even consider that a coach could be more valuable than a great player, PF1283. We've been through this before.

You're starting a team. You have your choice of any current player or coach. Which player in today's NFL would you take ahead of Belichick and how is that player going to have more value to the TEAM than Belichick?

There are tons of QB's that came into the NFL with little fanfare during that era. It was as much the norm as it was for 1st rounders to succeed in that little late 90's/early 00's window. For you to act like it basically only happened once is misleading.

Mich: name 1 relevant 6th rounder
PF: umm Bulger, same draft. Hasselbeck 3 years before
Mich: Ok who else

Then I'd name bunch of guys who were 3rd-4th round and below who went on to have good careers and you would just move the goal posts, say it isn't the same thing. It wouldn't be enough. I think you've put it in your head that this is some huge rarity in the football world and in that era it just wasn't. To get a extended shot and succeed? It was happening all the time which is why dismissing Brady's career chances as slim to none without BB is wrong to me.

I already said I'm not going to pretend to know how his career turns out (or BB's, which you seem to assume goes off w/o a hitch sans Brady because he's apparently teflon, which is why I said it goes both ways, something you seem to vehemently disagree with)

And I'm not trying to cop out, I'll obviously answer any question you ask, but BB is almost 70 years old and I don't think any of the young QB's are going to have the value over replacement that Brady, Manning, Rodgers have in the future unless someone incredible comes along (because 1. there is more QB parity and 2. the baseline for mid-tier QB play is going up a lot...Someone like Carson Wentz stats would be top 5 in 2012 and are mid-pack now) so I can't really answer the question. Maybe Mahomes (but I wouldn't have much conviction on it as we speak)

 

[SheriffJoe]

Bill created a system that gave Brady a greater opportunity to flourish, but the greatness that Brady has demonstrated is because of his own individual work ethic and personal development.

People have weirdly underrated Brady. If you are a nerd about the sport and the quarterback position, I suggest watching film breakdown of Brady's throwing motion. Brady has the best throwing mechanics of any QB I've ever seen. Literally the most perfect form. Watch his form and compare it to guys like Mahommes, etc. hell, even Rodgers....Brady is an iconic thrower of the ball.

People also dog him for his athletic/physical capabilities. Again, kind of unwarranted. Sure, he can't extend plays with his legs like other mobile guys can. But to Brady's credit, he's taken such good care of his body and has maximized his potential as an athlete. To those who think he has a weaker arm: for what it's worth, Brady has recorded both the longest throw through the air, and the fastest throw this season. He doesn't have the biggest arm in the league, sure, but point is he is no scrub in that department either -- even at his age.

The environment that Bill created in New England did great things for Brady, and it's undeniable that they were an amazing pair together. But the success of that team was even greater because of Brady -- both as the intelligent, selfless leader, and as someone who was damn good at throwing the ball

So had Brady been drafted by the Lions, Raiders, Bengals, Cardinals, Bucs, Jets or - pick your favourite franchise, most are gawd awful with horrible management! - he would have his 7 rings and still be playing?

Nah.

When it comes to QB comparisons, nobody defends Brady more than I do. I remember those legend "Manning vs Brady" debates and never once wavered believing Manning > Brady, precisely because of the rare intangibles now being discussed: Brady's religious-like devotion to physical health, his level of compete and warrior mentality, his selfless nature on the field and relentless devotion to being the best-of-the-best despite not being the best gifted athlete. Brady IS the GOAT, no doubt about it.

But in the spirit of THIS thread, ("Brady or Belichick") if you were starting a franchise and could have a young Tom Brady or Bill Belichick, which would you choose? Or, how about Mahomes vs Belichick?

If this were tennis, the choice would be obvious. Unfortunately for Brady fans, football is a team sport and had he drawn the short straw and ended up drafted by any number of mediocre franchises, it's quite possible he wouldn't have won a single championship.

Can the same argument be made against Belichick? Uhhhh, if Trent-friggin'-Dilfer got a ring with an elite D, any QB can...IF slotted properly. Certainly the GOAT would find a way. Maybe he wouldn't have 6 rings, but being the best coach has its privileges in terms of being able to move all the chess pieces all over the board.

So instead of Brady, imagine Belichick with... Manning, Marino, Favre, Brees, Elway, Jim Kelly, Rivers, Rodgers, Wilson...I could go on and on. How many rings would they have?

Brady > Belichick? C'mon man!

 

[PatsFan1283]

The best way I could answer your question is to take Brady out of the equation and say if I could have a time machine and go back to 2000 and be given 15 years with 1 guy, Peyton Manning or Bill Belichick (obviously with knowledge of their current successes) I would go with Peyton Manning. From 2003 on, he won 12 games every single year besides 1 when his team sucked and even that he grinded his way to double digits.

Bill Belichick has 8 seasons where he won a combined 1 playoff game, he's gonna have years when some idiot that is key to the team kills a few people (Hernandez), his QB tears his ACL (Brady), his defense is largely average for 4-5 years (2008-2013 before getting Talib), his secondary is ravaged by injuries (2005), he has the worst receivers in the NFL (2006), deficient rosters ('19-20)

Even now, I think he did a ton correct in the last 2 years, hit homeruns on drafts, FA signings, Mac Attack, he outran the coaching volatility that gets em all and for that he is the GOAT to me. A tour de force of team building it is looking like right now. But I don't think he is entirely immune to it and a lot of those years, if he didn't have Brady he would've likely had to get served some humble pie.

 

[PatsFan1283]

So had Brady been drafted by the Lions, Raiders, Bengals, Cardinals, Bucs, Jets or - pick your favourite franchise, most are gawd awful with horrible management! - he would have his 7 rings and still be playing?

Nah.

When it comes to QB comparisons, nobody defends Brady more than I do. I remember those legend "Manning vs Brady" debates and never once wavered believing Manning > Brady, precisely because of the rare intangibles now being discussed: Brady's religious-like devotion to physical health, his level of compete and warrior mentality, his selfless nature on the field and relentless devotion to being the best of the best. Brady IS the GOAT, no doubt about it.

But in the spirit of THIS thread, ("Brady or Belichick") if you were starting a franchise and could have a young Tom Brady or Bill Belichick, which would you choose? Or, how about Mahomes vs Belichick?

If this were tennis, the choice would be obvious. Unfortunately for Brady fans, football is a team sport and had he drawn the short straw and ended up drafted by any number of mediocre franchises, it's quite possible he wouldn't have won a single championship.

Can the same argument be made against Belichick? Uhhhh, if Trent-friggin'-Dilfer got a ring with an elite D, any QB can...IF slotted properly. Certainly the GOAT would find a way. Maybe he wouldn't have 6 rings, but being the best coach has its privileges in terms of being able to move all the chess pieces all over the board.

So instead of Brady, imagine Belichick with... Manning, Marino, Favre, Brees, Elway, Jim Kelly, Rivers, Rodgers, Wilson...I could go on and on. How many rings would they have?

Brady > Belichick? C'mon man!

Brady played 1 season without BB and won a ring. His team is favored to win it all this year and he's 44 years old. To think he doesn't have significant equity to win a superbowl every single season of his prime as long as the team isn't stone cold awful is absurd. Manning/Rodgers teams contend every year and you just said Brady is the GOAT. I.e you think he is better than them.

Belichick has 8 seasons and 1 playoff win.

Trent Dilfer has more playoff wins in 1 season than BB has in his entire career sans Brady, see how nice straw mans are?

 

[Avocado33]

Would

So had Brady been drafted by the Lions, Raiders, Bengals, Cardinals, Bucs, Jets or - pick your favourite franchise, most are gawd awful with horrible management! - he would have his 7 rings and still be playing?

Nah.

When it comes to QB comparisons, nobody defends Brady more than I do. I remember those legend "Manning vs Brady" debates and never once wavered believing Manning > Brady, precisely because of the rare intangibles now being discussed: Brady's religious-like devotion to physical health, his level of compete and warrior mentality, his selfless nature on the field and relentless devotion to being the best-of-the-best despite not being the best gifted athlete. Brady IS the GOAT, no doubt about it.

But in the spirit of THIS thread, ("Brady or Belichick") if you were starting a franchise and could have a young Tom Brady or Bill Belichick, which would you choose? Or, how about Mahomes vs Belichick?

If this were tennis, the choice would be obvious. Unfortunately for Brady fans, football is a team sport and had he drawn the short straw and ended up drafted by any number of mediocre franchises, it's quite possible he wouldn't have won a single championship.

Can the same argument be made against Belichick? Uhhhh, if Trent-friggin'-Dilfer got a ring with an elite D, any QB can...IF slotted properly. Certainly the GOAT would find a way. Maybe he wouldn't have 6 rings, but being the best coach has its privileges in terms of being able to move all the chess pieces all over the board.

So instead of Brady, imagine Belichick with... Manning, Marino, Favre, Brees, Elway, Jim Kelly, Rivers, Rodgers, Wilson...I could go on and on. How many rings would they have?

Brady > Belichick? C'mon man!

Of course Brady wouldn’t have 7!

Would Bill have 6 in New England without Brady? Of course not.

They were both able to accomplish more because of the presence of the other one. No one has disputed that. The debate is who had the greater impact/was more important to the dynasty, and I think the answer is Brady.

For what it’s worth, I think Brady could’ve made any of those franchises very competitive if he was drafted by them. He was going to succeed no matter where he want. Now that doesn’t mean he wins all those rings, but he absolutely elevates any franchise he goes to

 

[SheriffJoe]

Using Belichick's "sans-Brady" record to illustrate Brady's value is ridiculous, since Brady was BB's chosen starting QB. When said starter is missing on ANY team, that record will be crappier. What's a baseball manager's record with his fourth or firth starting pitcher? Or a coach's record in the NHL with his backup goalie? You mean Belichick's record isn't as stellar without his chosen starter? Wow! Who knew!

A more appropriate apples to apples comparison would be Brady's current record vs Belichick's record with his chosen starter. No, Cam Newton doesn't count, he was picked off the scrapheap and a stop-gap until Mac was ready.

Thus far, I'd say it's pretty even. Brady left New England with a bare cupboard, and now that Belichick's cupboard has been restocked and his guy is in place at QB, let's see what happens going forward.

Brady vs Belichick in the SuperBowl? We can only dream..

 

[PatsFan1283]

Using Belichick's "sans-Brady" record to illustrate Brady's value is ridiculous, since Brady was BB's chosen starting QB. When said starter is missing on ANY team, that record will be crappier. What's a baseball manager's record with his fourth or firth starting pitcher? Or a coach's record in the NHL with his backup goalie? You mean Belichick's record isn't as stellar without his chosen starter? Wow! Who knew!

A more appropriate apples to apples comparison would be Brady's current record vs Belichick's record with his chosen starter. No, Cam Newton doesn't count, he was picked off the scrapheap and a stop-gap until Mac was ready.

Thus far, I'd say it's pretty even. Brady left New England with a bare cupboard, and now that Belichick's cupboard has been restocked and his guy is in place at QB, let's see what happens going forward.

Brady vs Belichick in the SuperBowl? We can only dream..

Huh? That record only includes 16 games with a backup and that was Matt Cassel. That was on a team that was undefeated the year before and had a prime Randy Moss so not exactly a dire situation either. The rest of it is all with his starter (Testaverde, Kosar, Bledsoe, Cam)...So no it isn't.

So would you take Bill Parcells over Brady? The benefit of coaching is you get to run the ship, mental preparation, toughness, pick your players, run a tight ship, mold them, all those great benefits you cited whereas Brady could go to a shitty team and get owned. Bill Parcells gets to run his team.

 

[SheriffJoe]

Would

Of course Brady wouldn’t have 7!

Would Bill have 6 in New England without Brady? Of course not.

They were both able to accomplish more because of the presence of the other one. No one has disputed that. The debate is who had the greater impact/was more important to the dynasty, and I think the answer is Brady.

For what it’s worth, I think Brady could’ve made any of those franchises very competitive if he was drafted by them. He was going to succeed no matter where he want. Now that doesn’t mean he wins all those rings, but he absolutely elevates any franchise he goes to

I believe Belichick would have lots of rings with Favre, Manning, Marino...any elite QB. I dunno, pick one.

Obviously I can't prove it, but you see my point. Belichick's value as architect, manager and in-game strategist surpasses the value of ANY QB, including Brady, Mahomes, Montana, Manning, Allen, and every other QB Belichick stopped dead in his tracks.

If you were starting a franchise with a young Tom Brady or Bill Belichick, your franchise would be more successful with Belichick, all things being equal.

That's my (and Micheangelo's) point.

 

[SheriffJoe]

Huh? That record only includes 16 games with a backup and that was Matt Cassel. That was on a team that was undefeated the year before and had a prime Randy Moss so not exactly a dire situation either. The rest of it is all with his starter (Testaverde, Kosar, Bledsoe, Cam)...So no it isn't.

So would you take Bill Parcells over Brady? The benefit of coaching is you get to run the ship, mental preparation, toughness, pick your players, run a tight ship, mold them, all those great benefits you cited whereas Brady could go to a shitty team and get owned. Bill Parcells gets to run his team.

With full autonomy? I think so.

Parcells was a HOF elite coach and Belichick was a Parcells disciple. And while I do like current coaches like Vrabel, I have to draw that line somewhere as there simply aren't enough of them I would value over Brady (or any super-elite QB). Would I take Andy Reid or Pete Carroll over Brady? Uhh, no.

I also believe Brady would have been out of the league 5+ years ago had he not been drafted by the Patriots. Yes, he would have made average teams very competitive, but all those rings in New England have kept him plenty motivated to be the GOAT. Hats off to him.

 

[Willie99]

Belichick is not just the head coach, which he's great at, he's the GM, which is equally important

Belichick is the best GM in the era of free agency

 

[PatsFan1283]

Yeah, so this is where I would say I don't think Parcells was the most important person on his Giants superbowl teams. It was Lawrence Taylor, the best defensive player of all time but that is getting into the weeds a bit. Just like I don't think Marvin Lewis was most important person for the Ravens defense, it was Ray Lewis. He also had Bill Belichick running his defenses, which perhaps helped a bit.

He was a great coach but to go with someone that went 8 years without winning a playoff game from '99-06 over the best QB (whomever you deem that) just isn't an opinion I could have because I don't see any of the best QB's doing that unless the situation is just straight dire. And I think it would be a reach to say he didn't have significant input with both the Jets and the Cowboys. He also had significant input with NE too (even though he did get overruled on the Terry Glenn thing, although Terry Glenn was better than the guy he wanted to draft in an odd wrinkle)

Chuck Knoll, Mike Shanahan, Jimmy Johnson, Joe Gibbs, George Seifert......All these greats eventually met their match as long as they stuck around too long. So it is easy to take the Cowher's or Dungy's that got out at the right time and compare their resumes, but they probably just timed their exit before getting humbled. If you wanna say Belichick is a force of nature GOAT that is immune to all of this, I think he's closer to that although not totally immune to their slipups. But that is more about him as 1 person wrecking crew than coaching in general.

 

[Dr.Love]

Brady in his prime for 10 years over the best coach of all time. Not even a debate. If you think otherwise, you might be retarded.

 

[Willie99]

Brady wasn't Brady until he met Belichick. Belichick absolutely positively had something to do with his development

 

[Knightrofins]

When will the a pats build a Mo Lewis statue outside their stadium?

if he doesn’t knock Bledsoe out, who knows how both Brady and Bill B would have ended up?

bill b would be a DC somewhere and Brady wound be making 6 figures selling marketplace insurance policies

 

[PatsFan1283]

When will the a pats build a Mo Lewis statue outside their stadium?

if he doesn’t knock Bledsoe out, who knows how both Brady and Bill B would have ended up?

bill b would be a DC somewhere and Brady wound be making 6 figures selling marketplace insurance policies

I assume this is being said in jest? I know talking heads make the quip here and there but by the 2001 preseason it was known that NE had something in Brady, he had a very good preseason. They were 0-2 after a 5-11 season, I'm not sure how much longer Bledsoe had. Maybe Bledsoe could've started playing way better than that 18 game sample and fucked BB into having to stick with him a bit longer but he had been pretty rough in that offense.

They probably don't win the 2001 superbowl if that hit doesn't happen, but the Brady/BB unholy alliance of dominance time was coming either way at that point.

Although I do think if Brady isn't there, BB has a way tougher time moving on from Bledsoe than people think. Other NE fans will be able to understand this better than others in the thread, but it is hard to explain Bledsoe's popularity to others in retrospect. He basically got no blame for the '98-00 downturn because it mostly got put on Grier/Carroll and other players. He was the first "Franchise QB" in Patriots history and he was the guy that helped get Gillette built, turned the team around to atleast a playoff team, made a superbowl. I mean, he was dust by 2001 but Belichick might've found himself in the same shit situation he was in in Cleveland where he had Kosar all washed up and going to VinnyT was the right move but the fans/owner hated it.

If he can convince Kraft to move on from Bledsoe (1 of the highest paid QB's in the league at the time) then he would've had a ton of pressure on him to find the right replacement after that and QB play sucked in that early 00's era pretty badly (which is conversely why I say Brady would've got a shot somewhere, teams were so thin then, so many legends from the 90's had retired like Aikman/Moon/Elway/Marino/Young/Kelly and the new generation hadn't really come in yet).....Certainly a more challenging situation hypothetically than I think people realize.