Brady or Belichick

[SheriffJoe]

Should Tampa give Belichick a ring for their Super Bowl last season ?

Football is a 50 man team game.

You can be the best of the best saxophone or violin player, but if the conductor stinks so will the entire orchestra. There are more posts in this forum yelling at dumb coaches and their boneheaded calls and strategies during games than any other position player. So many lightweights in this league who talk smack promising their fans the moon, but don't understand how to evaluate talent, let alone the fundamentals and nuances of the game necessary to win.

How many rings would Brady have right now if Jason Garrett had been his coach? Or dozens just like him who have come and gone over the years? Would he have had Gronkin in the clutch on most critical third downs?

Seriously...

 

[PatsFanatic]

Jason Garrett? Terrible comparison. At least pick a coach thats within a stratosphere as Belichick.

How about Parcells, Cower, Reid, Payton, Harbaugh? Would have won rings with all those guys.

 

[SheriffJoe]

Jason Garrett? Terrible comparison. At least pick a coach thats within a stratosphere as Belichick.

How about Parcells, Cower, Reid, Payton, Harbaugh? Would have won rings with all those guys.

Parcells has 2 rings, Cower has 1, Reid has 1, Payton has 1 and the Harbaugh brothers have 1 between them.

Which stratosphere are you referring to?

Would you bet against the GOAT getting 7 or more by the time he retires?

 

[PatsFanatic]

Jason Garrett? Terrible comparison. At least pick a coach thats within a stratosphere as Belichick.

How about Parcells, Cower, Reid, Payton, Harbaugh? Would have won rings with all those guys.

Parcells has 2 rings, Cower has 1, Reid has 1, Payton has 1 and the Harbaugh brothers have 1 between them.

Which stratosphere are you referring to?

Would you bet against the GOAT getting 7 or more by the time he retires?

I'm just saying you picked one hell of a coach to place Brady with thats all lol

As much as I like BB, yes I would bet against him getting another ring before retires.

Hope he proves me wrong.

 

[SheriffJoe]

Well, there are a lot more Jason Garretts in the NFL than the guys you mentioned, which is kinda the point. Brady should count his blessings he wasn't drafted by the Cowboys. lol

I wish they had a Belichick cam last SuperBowl because you know watching Brady was the biggest torture of his life. His aggressive rebuild proves how much it ate away at him. Watching the GOAT leap in the air the other night after they beat the Bills you'd think he was a rookie coach who'd never won anything. That's how much winning means to him...still.

 

[PatsFanatic]

No, the point is the argument can be made either way. There are a lot more Joe Flacco's in the league than there are Tom Brady's, what if Belichick was forced to build his team around one of them? I mean this thing goes both ways which is what I originally posted and I still believe. You can do what if's all day long, the two of them are like PB&J.

Chop still thinks to this day that Bill should have kept Jimmy G! I mean really? You think the Pats win 3 more titles with that dude?? LOL

 

[SheriffJoe]

PF, that's the whole point about being the conductor - he ain't "forced" to build around anyone. He's the architect, the one who decides which pieces fit and which don't. Either you do it the Belichick way or you're gone, which to be fair is one of the reasons why Brady eventually left.

Imagine what the GOAT could do with Josh Allen who plays for a team that once again is a dysfunctional mess top to bottom.

 

[Michelangelo]

PF, that's the whole point about being the conductor - he ain't "forced" to build around anyone. He's the architect, the one who decides which pieces fit and which don't. Either you do it the Belichick way or you're gone, which to be fair is one of the reasons why Brady eventually left.

Imagine what the GOAT could do with Josh Allen who plays for a team that once again is a dysfunctional mess top to bottom.

This.

It was Belichick who brought Brady along in the Belichick way. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If not for Belichick Tom Brady may have been an insurance salesman somewhere with a dumpy wife, a name long forgotten after a pretty good, but not great, career at Michigan. He was drafted by Belichick in the 6th round and groomed for success by Bellichick. Hell, his first college pass at Michigan was a pick six. Here's the team player prior to the 2000 Orange Bowl vs Alabama that Belli saw that everyone else passed on:

Any player in the NFL or coach Belli. Who are you going to start your team with?

Hands down, Belichick for me.

 

[CHOPTALK]

Jesus

 

[Michelangelo]

PF, that's the whole point about being the conductor - he ain't "forced" to build around anyone. He's the architect, the one who decides which pieces fit and which don't. Either you do it the Belichick way or you're gone, which to be fair is one of the reasons why Brady eventually left.

Imagine what the GOAT could do with Josh Allen who plays for a team that once again is a dysfunctional mess top to bottom.

This.

It was Belichick who brought Brady along in the Belichick way. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If not for Belichick Tom Brady may have been an insurance salesman somewhere with a dumpy wife, a name long forgotten from his He was drafted by Belichick in the 6th round and groomed for success by Bellichick. Hell, his first college pass at Michigan was a pick six. Here's the team player prior to the 2000 Orange Bowl vs Alabama that Belli saw that everyone else passed on:

Any player in the NFL or coach Belli. Who are you going to start your team with?

Hands down, Belichick for me.

Jesus

Jesus doesn't play in the NFL.

 

[CHOPTALK]

Selling insurance ?
Come on man .
What an insult

 

[PatsFanatic]

This.

It was Belichick who brought Brady along in the Belichick way. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If not for Belichick Tom Brady may have been an insurance salesman somewhere with a dumpy wife, a name long forgotten from his He was drafted by Belichick in the 6th round and groomed for success by Bellichick. Hell, his first college pass at Michigan was a pick six. Here's the team player prior to the 2000 Orange Bowl vs Alabama that Belli saw that everyone else passed on:

Any player in the NFL or coach Belli. Who are you going to start your team with?

Hands down, Belichick for me.

Jesus doesn't play in the NFL.

You can’t be serious…. I like BB just as much as the next guy but you talk about the GOAT QB like he was a bum before BB got him. Come on dude the kid could flat out play, showed that at every level. BB didn’t give him the brain or arm or drive to do what he accomplished in his career. He just went to another team and won the damn SB. He was flat out lucky to have picked Brady.

 

[SheriffJoe]

You can’t be serious…. I like BB just as much as the next guy but you talk about the GOAT QB like he was a bum before BB got him. Come on dude the kid could flat out play, showed that at every level. BB didn’t give him the brain or arm or drive to do what he accomplished in his career. He just went to another team and won the damn SB. He was flat out lucky to have picked Brady.

If he could flat out play out of college, why was he bypassed by every team and drafted 199th overall? By the time the Pats signed him, they were carrying him as their 4th QB.

Obviously it's the greatest success story in sports, but Tom Brady came that close to not even taking a snap on an NFL practice squad.

 

[SheriffJoe]

Btw, the 2000 draft was Belichick's first draft as a head coach, which will probably go down as the most important day in Pats history...one hell of a way to make an entrance!

Here's what the coach said the day Tom Brady was drafted:

"The value board at that point really clearly put him as the top value. Brady is a guy that has obviously played at a high level of competition in front of a lot of people and he's been in a lot of pressure situations. We felt that this year his decision-making was improved from his junior year after he took over for Brian Griese. He cut his interceptions down. He's a good, tough, competitive, smart quarterback that is a good value, and how he does and what he'll be able to do, we'll just put him out there with everybody else and let him compete and we'll see what happens."

Interesting, while most scouts drool over arm strength, athletic ability, individual stats - all areas where Brady fell way short - here Belichick emphasizes "pressure situations, decision-making, tough, competitive, smart" etc. In other words, players he can mold to play the Belichick way.

Individual stats and accomplishments mean nothing, it's all about what's best for the team and winning. That's what the coach taught Tom Brady and why Bill Belichick is the GOAT.

 

[PatsFan1283]

You can’t be serious…. I like BB just as much as the next guy but you talk about the GOAT QB like he was a bum before BB got him. Come on dude the kid could flat out play, showed that at every level. BB didn’t give him the brain or arm or drive to do what he accomplished in his career. He just went to another team and won the damn SB. He was flat out lucky to have picked Brady.

Yeah, you sortof realize pretty fast he is basically a religion to people. I'm a little more objective than that so it is all a leap to me. I totally understood why he was framed as a football God by non-Patriot fans. No one cares who the best coach of all time is, it isn't a remotely polarizing issue. Anyone that thinks Lombardi is the answer is probably dead. Who the best QB is happens to be very polarizing, thus if you say there is a variable giving Brady an advantage others don't have, you can diminish him. As far as NE fans/followers go, I think one guy still reps the laundry and one doesn't for NE fans, it is really as simple as that. Fandom is a powerful cognitive bias. Thinking BB was more valuable is fine, but obviously some of this stuff being said is pretty outlandish.

Obviously goes both ways re who was a boon for who circa 2000-2001, BB was like 41-58 as a HC off a 5-11 year, a 0-2 start to the next year and could've easily gotten fired sooner than later. A

Also w/o Brady it honestly woudl've been harder to get off Bledsoe than people recall IMO. NE fans fucking loved him and so did Kraft, that's really become overlooked now. It really wasn't until late 2003 that it was consensus opinion that NE made the right move) and been back trying to win 17-14 games with Quincy Carter at QB as Parcells DC in Dallas if Brady didn't come along.

The way he is able to coach now with rigid discipline, militancy and attention to detail while getting the players to buy-in obviously works a lot better when you have an incredible resume. Ask Patricia, McDaniel, Weis, O'brien, Judge, etc how easy it is to install "The Patriot Way" without a winning pedigree. Can't really do that if you don't win a ton early. But if you think he is a football God, then w/o Brady he just has all that stuff fall into place anyway so I guess it isn't very relevant. Would it happen regardless? I'm gonna say probably not, but obviously don't have a crystal ball.

(i split this post up into more paragraphs because the white background is pretty rough for big clusters of text, for you, the reader)

 

[PatsFan1283]

Either way, one thing we can all agree on is both of these guys must have paid the $15 a month for the MasterClass by Hillary Clinton and made it all the way to the final chapter, resiliency. For one to win a superbowl last year and the other to have 1 of the best teams in the NFL this year despite both going on 20+ years of being at the top of the NFL and taking on all comers would take 1 defining trait above all else ------ resiliency

Choosing a Life of Resilience

Hillary brings the class full circle back to the idea of developing a strong sense of resilience. She encourages you to keep going through the inevitable setbacks and disappointments of life, and to continue chasing your dreams.

www.masterclass.com

 

[Avocado33]

Bill created a system that gave Brady a greater opportunity to flourish, but the greatness that Brady has demonstrated is because of his own individual work ethic and personal development.

People have weirdly underrated Brady. If you are a nerd about the sport and the quarterback position, I suggest watching film breakdown of Brady's throwing motion. Brady has the best throwing mechanics of any QB I've ever seen. Literally the most perfect form. Watch his form and compare it to guys like Mahommes, etc. hell, even Rodgers....Brady is an iconic thrower of the ball.

People also dog him for his athletic/physical capabilities. Again, kind of unwarranted. Sure, he can't extend plays with his legs like other mobile guys can. But to Brady's credit, he's taken such good care of his body and has maximized his potential as an athlete. To those who think he has a weaker arm: for what it's worth, Brady has recorded both the longest throw through the air, and the fastest throw this season. He doesn't have the biggest arm in the league, sure, but point is he is no scrub in that department either -- even at his age.

The environment that Bill created in New England did great things for Brady, and it's undeniable that they were an amazing pair together. But the success of that team was even greater because of Brady -- both as the intelligent, selfless leader, and as someone who was damn good at throwing the ball

 

[SheriffJoe]

PatsFan, if Lombardi is a legend (he is), what does that make Belichick? Lombardi, Parcells, Belichick, Saban...the greats all coach the same way.

Once you get to this level, talent only goes so far. Every team has 'talent', relatively speaking - professional football players are the best of the best. So it becomes about mental toughness, discipline, physical preparation and execution under pressure. Every player has their assignment and slotted properly to the best of their abilities - "DO YOUR JOB!" Individual stats are for the fantasy nerds, not real football players.

I've seen serious sports analysts already comparing Mac Jones to a young Tom Brady which is outrageous, but it does show Belichick is looking for certain traits in a QB and already molding Mac into a similar player.

As for any rogue diva who refuses to "buy in"...well, sometimes you have to sacrifice good talent in the short term to build that winning culture over the long term. When a player puts on a New England Patriots uniform, he knows exactly what to expect. If at some point his ego gets the better of him or becomes too greedy, he's shown the door. We've seen Belichick do this over and over with scrubs to Pro-Bowlers. And now, most recently - gasp! - Tom Brady, The Living Legend himself!

And so it was... game over for Pats fans facing a miserable 5+ year rebuild with no guarantees for success, like every other franchise.

Flash forward one year and the GOAT has them surging top of their division and talk of league once again.

It's not an accident and not a religion. It's just damn old school sound fundamental football.

 

[PatsFan1283]

No one is saying he isn't the best coach but the heavy platitudes ("every team has talent!"....Tell that to the 2000 or 2019-2020 Patriots or the teams that Brady carried in injury riddled years or years the cupboard was more bare in NE) and the idea his success was inevitable regardless of circumstance is a bit of a leap for me. And I'd say that for all those other guys listed as well, a lot of short-term luck goes into the volatile profession of coaching.

He was 41-58 with 1 playoff win in 6 years before TB made his first start for him. So his legendary inevitability just clicking at that exact time is a bit of a leap for me.

If he didn't benefit from Brady as much as vice versa then so be it. I can't run it back in an alternative reality.


Speaking of Saban, good job going Culpepper over Brees. Costly fish mistake there (pun intended)

I made good $ betting NE about -150 to win the division that year because of all the hype Miami had. That was the lowest NE was to win the AFC East in the Brady/BB era besides 2010 and Jets which was close to PK pretty sure. I guess he went onto do some good things after that in the peewee leagues, but I don't really follow CFB much.

 

[Avocado33]

As for any rogue diva who refuses to "buy in"...well, sometimes you have to sacrifice good talent in the short term to build that winning culture over the long term. When a player puts on a New England Patriots uniform, he knows exactly what to expect. If at some point his ego gets the better of him or becomes too greedy, he's shown the door. We've seen Belichick do this over and over with scrubs to Pro-Bowlers. And now, most recently - gasp! - Tom Brady, The Living Legend himself!

The real sacrifice during the last couple decades in New England was Tom Brady sacrificing significant amounts of his salary to keep a strong roster around him.

That is what really kept the engine running