quantum...I won't lie, I had my differences with the union over the years. But most of those differences were on the local level. Not the international union, which is a much different animal. I think unless a person has actually worked on a GM assembly line, they don't have a clue on what goes on there. Without a union, the management wouldn't do anything if a worker got hurt on the line. They would tell them to continue to work unless you called for your union representative to save your ass from further getting injured. The assembly line is a dangerous place. I've suffered some bad cuts and bruises, along with dislocating my shoulder one time while working on it. You absolutely have to have a union there or you could get killed. If you go to China or Japan or some of the third world countries who don't have unions, I guarantee that you would see a shitload of worker injuries that probably go unreported. I would like to think the U.S. is a little better place to work than than third world countries.Excellent post Sooners. While the Unions can be held partly responsible they weren't the only problem. Management were the ones who decided to make unreliable vehicles instead of making vehicles last and I think you are right that they were counting on their existing customer base.
I agree 100%. Conservatives will never get it that Bush and his administration are just as much to blame for the things they didn't do than the things they did. And helping the average hard working man has never been on the republican agenda. Having worked for General Motors for many years, I know exactly why this company failed. And it doesn't have anything to do with unions. It has more to do with inaction of the CEO's on down to the engineers to stay ahead of the game when new competetion came into the country. They thought they could keep their same customer base by building the same old plain looking inferior cars for the last 30 years. And it caught up with them. By the way I also hold Clinton responsible for the mess too. If he hadn't gone along with the republicans and signed the NAFTA bill, it wouldn't have caused a lot of the GM parts and assembly plants to be moved to Mexico. Union or no union, there's no way the average american auto worker would have been able to compete with mexican workers who are are willing to work for two bits an hour because they have a much smaller cost of living there.
This is the problem with wars. They are easy to start. But hard as hell to end. I would hope this country has learned something from it. But I have my doubts. George Bush got elected twice.The NAFTA bill played a small part but it makes me sick when the republican idiots say george w bush has no blood on his hands.. thats absolute bullsh*t, bush or any republican would've let the american auto companies die a painful death.. they never would've given bailout money.. GM will have the money paid off this year.. W Bush is the reason this country is in the position it is now.. All these republicans idiots keep saying is Obama is spending to much and he's the reason for our debt, bullsh*t!!! Anybody realize how much this war has costed since 2003 when bush used the bullsh*t excuse "weapons of mass destruction" which might I add WERE NEVER FOUND!! This war is the reason we are in Debt right now and Bush's hand are full of blood forever.. The reason Obama ain't pullin out the troops right now is because we are left to clean up the republicans mess.. We can't just leave cause if we do and something bad happens Obama will get the blame.. Thanks a lot to the republicans for f**king up our country.. And if u think sarah palin could run our country, you need professional help..
quantum...I won't lie, I had my differences with the union over the years. But most of those differences were on the local level. Not the international union, which is a much different animal. I think unless a person has actually worked on a GM assembly line, they don't have a clue on what goes on there. Without a union, the management wouldn't do anything if a worker got hurt on the line. They would tell them to continue to work unless you called for your union representative to save your ass from further getting injured. The assembly line is a dangerous place. I've suffered some bad cuts and bruises, along with dislocating my shoulder one time while working on it. You absolutely have to have a union there or you could get killed. If you go to China or Japan or some of the third world countries who don't have unions, I guarantee that you would see a shitload of worker injuries that probably go unreported. I would like to think the U.S. is a little better place to work than than third world countries.
On top of injuries, workers had to deal with the new workers compensation laws that Bush and the republicans tried like hell to pass in the early 2000's. They wanted to make it nearly impossible to draw workman's comp if you got hurt a second time on the job. Which would have been a disaster if you were an assembly line worker for a car company. I've seen a thousand workers go out with carpal tunnel. Get surgery. Come back to work a couple months later, and get it again in the other hand. Or the same hand. And have to go out again. I've still got carpal tunnel myself to this day. And I haven't worked on the line in years. But if you need to know the fundamental difference between republicans and democrats, it's incidents like this. The dems fought for the working man and blocked most of the bad parts of the workman comp laws that the pubs tried to pass in the name of the coorporations. Most people who are blue collar workers understand this. Most white collar workers don't have a clue what goes on in the industrial world.
Talking about places like Detroit and Flint, the reason the white man left that city was because he lost everything when the plants closed down. And there were no jobs there because many places of business were directly tied to the auto industry in that town. And they went out too. I'm talking about eating places, grocery and convienience stores, etc..GM workers had no safety net back then. You could have worked for the company for 29 years. But if they shut the plant down and they weren't able to get that 30th year in to retire, all was lost. And many commited suicide when they felt there was no hope left after dedicating their life to GM. After what happened in Michigan, the international union went back to the table with GM and demanded a safety net for workers when GM decided to close plants. And because of the union and the safety net that guarantreed workers their income, it saved our asses when GM started closing plants right and left before finally filing bankrupcy.
This is the problem with wars. They are easy to start. But hard as hell to end. I would hope this country has learned something from it. But I have my doubts. George Bush got elected twice.
i hope this country has too but the republican party is thick headed. they will never learn and never listen.
All you have to do is turn on the fox news channel and see the bulls**t they spew on a daily basis.. fair and balanced, yeah right.. sean hannity is the worst of them, he treats george w bush like a god.
Another clueless wonder. So the repubs ruined Detroit......LMAO
PLease don't acuse GWB being a conservative. He spent like a liberal you ALL SHOULD HAVE LOVED HIM. You people that bow down infront of Obama like he is different. 2 wars still going on. Gitmo still open. Spending like a crazy man still going on. Thinking government is the answer is just stupid.
BTW Hannity is an opinion show not thier news. If you watch thier news portion of the network there is nothing wrong with it.
Two wars that bush started.. After the wars are over trillions will have been spent on it which has contributed to the high debt our government now faces.. The war will be over in iraq soon thanks to Obama.. afghanistan will be over shortly there after.. if it were up to republicans we would be there forever..
It's pretty obvious where you stand judging by your avatar.. Buddy...People get hurt all of the time on the line. Even at Toyota. But don't expect to see it on your front page news. We had one person get killed where I worked, and it barely made page 7 in the local paper. You obviously have never dirtied your hands if you don't think this doesn't go on everywhere. The bad part about Toyota is whenever a worker gets hurt, they do their best not to report it to OSHA for fear of tarnishing their so-called clean image. When you come back off injury they move you to different places in the plant where jobs are even worse because seniority and your old job means nothing in a non-union shop. They also dangle your employment in front of you if you get hurt too much on the job. People are always working scared in a non-union shop for fear of losing their jobs. And they don''t have any kind of safety net in non-union plants. You get fired, your gone. No pension. No nothing. The Saturn Plant in the U.S. is also non-union because the workers believed the false hope the company gave them of the so-called team concept that never worked anywhere it's been tried. And now they are begging to form a union because of the worker nightmares they are going through. So don't even attempt to tell me how much you think you know about the auto industry. I can already tell you don't know squat. I've worked for GM in all capacities for many years. Including quality control inspector. And I know how these cars are built inside and out, and what a company will let go out the door in the name of quantity over quality. Now that Toyota is the big kid on the block, they are going through the same things GM did. And their quality is starting to get hurt. Stop believing what you read on the net from republican websites and take it from a person who has been there. Auto plants are very unsafe enviornments. I would like to put you on an assmebly line for a day and let you find out. It's hard work. And UAW workers earn every cent of their wages, along with dealing with injuries.WOW you are clueless. The white man left Detroit for the much much safer suburbs not because the jobs left. You don't know what your talking about. Detroit was a shithole long long before anyone knew who GWB was. You liberal union parasites just kill me.
There are laws and things like EEOC OSHA to help with workplace safety. If what you say is true (which it is not) Why don't we hear the horror stories from Toyota, Nissan and the other non union auto plants about people getting killed on the lines. You just keep on spewing your liberal union slogans and the union will continue to die.
Lies lies lies. Why should anything be garunteed to you.
It's pretty obvious where you stand judging by your avatar.. Buddy...People get hurt all of the time on the line. Even at Toyota. But don't expect to see it on your front page news. We had one person get killed where I worked, and it barely made page 7 in the local paper. You obviously have never dirtied your hands if you don't think this doesn't go on everywhere. The bad part about Toyota is whenever a worker gets hurt, they do their best not to report it to OSHA for fear of tarnishing their so-called clean image. When you come back off injury they move you to different places in the plant where jobs are even worse because seniority and your old job means nothing in a non-union shop. They also dangle your employment in front of you if you get hurt too much on the job. People are always working scared in a non-union shop for fear of losing their jobs. And they don''t have any kind of safety net in non-union plants. You get fired, your gone. No pension. No nothing. The Saturn Plant in the U.S. is also non-union because the workers believed the false hope the company gave them of the so-called team concept that never worked anywhere it's been tried. And now they are begging to form a union because of the worker nightmares they are going through. So don't even attempt to tell me how much you think you know about the auto industry. I can already tell you don't know squat. I've worked for GM in all capacities for many years. Including quality control inspector. And I know how these cars are built inside and out, and what a company will let go out the door in the name of quantity over quality. Now that Toyota is the big kid on the block, they are going through the same things GM did. And their quality is starting to get hurt. Stop believing what you read on the net from republican websites and take it from a person who has been there. Auto plants are very unsafe enviornments. I would like to put you on an assmebly line for a day and let you find out. It's hard work. And UAW workers earn every cent of their wages, along with dealing with injuries.
People out there need to wise up and quit buying foreign cars.. [/B]
Perhaps it is you who need to wise up and ditch the 1970's mentality. It's a global economy now and most foreign cars sold in America and made in America. A hell of a lot more people would be out of work if people stopped buying Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas.
The Saturn Plant in the U.S. is also non-union because the workers believed the false hope the company gave them of the so-called team concept that never worked anywhere it's been tried. And now they are begging to form a union because of the worker nightmares they are going through.
DEAC...All of this Saturn union business was happening when I was still working. I haven't worked in a few years. So I no longer have the desire to keep up with the auto industry..The reason i knew about the problems the workers had with management there was because a couple of my buddies tranferred to that plant from OKC. In retrospect not a good move. But they never had anything good to say to me when it came to the day to day business of their non-union shop. When I left GM there were rumors that the Saturn plant was in trouble. I'm glad the UAW later came in. I hope they were there long enough to have won the workers some kind of compensation or possible reloacation after they closed...Excuse the grammatical error I made earlier. I meant China, Japan and SOME third world countries. Although when it comes to the treatment of their workers, China and Japan might as well be third world countries.My Sooner Brother-
I'm more on your side in this argument than I am The Right Side's, but there are a lot of factual errors in your arguments and you're making it too easy for him.
The Spring Hill plant started off non-union and then later the UAW came in. Also, Saturn workers are not begging to form a union because there are no Saturn workers anymore as the product line has been discontinued.
And Japan is not a 3rd world country.