Scott L said:I don't know much about PNAC, but I know plenty about the US. I don't think either the US government or its citizens desire or would benefit from a "one world government."
That's not really what I meant, though I'd argue that there are certain individuals who would like a one world government. Most of those I'd name are Leftists, however.
What I meant was that the West is trying to change the social and political makeup of not only the Middle East, but other parts of the world as well. Every politician and NGO is guilty of this ... spreading democracy, championing feminist movements, 'tolerance', etc.
This is not to say that I think democracy or women's rights are a bad thing. Only these things are not being fought for by the peoples themselves, and so we are, therefore, imposing our will.
(Certainly you can see that radical Islamists think we'd all be much happier if we converted to Islam, no? Humans are always inclined to believe that their way is better, no matter the reality of such.)
It doesn't sound like freedom to me, which is what I'd like to be established all over the world. Of course under some set of humanitarian laws in each country, determined by its citizens, and not some religious or other authoritarian decree.
It is not up to you nor I to 'establish freedom around the world.' It is up to oppressed peoples to fight for their own freedom, if they so choose. If they do not choose it, then so be it. In the same vein we are free to reject Islamism as a form of social rule.
Then you write that if we just stay in our own land and fortify our position they can't take over. Of course that's correct (for now), but the logic is flawed. As our technology improves by natural advancement of our societies, those who want to kill us also benefit. If we don't invent the airplane........And look how they use the internet and our media.
These technologies are equally available to us.
The fundamentalists first want to gain control over the entire middle east. If they did that it would choke us economically.
Which is what this whole thing is about, isn't it? I mean, let's be realistic here. If the Middle East had no oil, upon which our society is based, the meddling of the past century in their affairs would be minimal at best.
Okay, so let's say we retreat. Entirely retreat. No more embassies, no more UN representation, etc.
Are Middle Eastern oil producers, state and privately owned alike, going to raise the price of oil so high that we won't buy it? What would they gain from this? More importantly, what would they lose? Don't forget that their economies - and ipso facto expansionist aims - are dependent on foreign oil consumption. Raising the price of oil so high we are economically fucked would be counterproductive for them as well.
But if they do, so what? What will this cost us? Will it cost us more, in the long run, than the cost of maintaining wars, bases, embassies, and scores of governmental layers to keep up with the constant game of Oil Control? Maybe. And if it does cost us more, will our terribly ingenious society not begin to flood dollars into alternative energies, as the laws of supply and demand will eventually dictate anyway?
Then they want to spread out from there. If they gain control of Afg, Iran, and Iraq, it wouldn't be long before they had Pakistan's nukes, or somehow gained access to nuclear material. If in their version of armagadeon we all go to hell and they all go to heaven do you think they would hesitate? Or that your strategy of circling the wagons at home would prevail?
Mutually assured destruction.
(I don't buy your theory that ALL STATEHEADS in the ME would be happy to become martyrs for the cause.)
I'm not stating all jihadis follow this rule, but bin Laden now has clerical permission to kill 10 million people.
So? He does not have the means.
No, I don't think they can overtake us militarily. What they envision is a form of takeover by threat. The Madrid bombings are an illustration. First you control the middle east. Take over the Saudi oil fields, which they could without our protection. Destroy Israel and replace it with Hamasstan. Destroy India. Kill Musharraf and gain control of Paki nukes. What's next? Blow up New York and tell Americans 5 more cities go next Tuesday unless there's a CRESCENT over the Whitehouse!
You must have very little faith in your fellow Americans if you think that threat would work.
Your view has Americans running to the nearest Walmart to buy hajibs if they threatened the US. There's not an ounce of evidence throughout US history to support such a view.
I'm not saying their crazy strategy is going to work. It's just my belief that they are not angered by our actions, or responding/retaliating for anything we do. They are simply and steadfastly determined that their way is the only way.
As are we. So why engage them?