Revere has been with us since December. He has only made 3 soccer bets with us. In March he bet 500 to win 2500 and then the line moved and he bet 500 to win 2250 On another occasion in March he bet 500 to win 1650 the line moved then he bet 500 to win 1500 Our soccer limits have always been 500 He knows we would not take $40,000 on one game never movithe number
Steve, I've always trumpeted WSEX...
Since you (WSEX) have indeed allowed him to place multiple online bets that exceeded 500.00 then your defense is very weak.
It is NOT the players responsibility to change the line.
I would have NOT placed the amount of bets or dollar amount withOUT a phone call but that's me... In light of what you just posted --Revere14 has a strong case to be paid in full.
Good Luck in your decision.
Frank
Since you (WSEX) have indeed allowed him to place multiple online bets that exceeded 500.00 then your defense is very weak.
It is NOT the players responsibility to change the line.
I would have NOT placed the amount of bets or dollar amount withOUT a phone call but that's me... In light of what you just posted --Revere14 has a strong case to be paid in full.
Good Luck in your decision.
Frank
And BTW, when exactly were these bets placed?
On friday there was 11/10 (+110) available in places, but by Sat most places were even money, and you would have had zero chance at laying off that money anywhere near 6/5 before the game (it was a noon GMT TV game)unless you have an account with Ido (just kidding). Anyone who bets knows there is no way anyone in WSEX's part of the world is booking 40 dime bets in EPL...At the same price for that matter, and at the worst price (for them anyways), without talking to someone. And to venture a guess at their liabilities, it cant be more than a few grand with 500$ bets and really no chance at attracted money on the other two sides starting off with like a 12% book.
On friday there was 11/10 (+110) available in places, but by Sat most places were even money, and you would have had zero chance at laying off that money anywhere near 6/5 before the game (it was a noon GMT TV game)unless you have an account with Ido (just kidding). Anyone who bets knows there is no way anyone in WSEX's part of the world is booking 40 dime bets in EPL...At the same price for that matter, and at the worst price (for them anyways), without talking to someone. And to venture a guess at their liabilities, it cant be more than a few grand with 500$ bets and really no chance at attracted money on the other two sides starting off with like a 12% book.
Revere, Nice try! I think everyone should try to take shots at bookmakers... however, I dont think you should bank on it.
This case is as clear as black and white to me.
REVERE TRIED TO CIRCUMVENT THE LIMITS BY CONSTRUCTING MULTIPLE SMALL BETS TO FLY UNDER THE RADAR.
WSEX obviously has set a precedence with Revere by ramping up prices with successive wagers bet at the limits (supply and demand, this is totally normal). In other cases, ramping prices upward allowed Revere to get down on 2 bets before he felt that he had no further advantage and stopped wagering.
WSEX does not have a clear rule about trying to circumvent limits with small wagers (maybe they should) however their rule #16 says that Las Vegas rules apply where not explicitely outlined. Im sure that Las Vegas has rules (and possibly criminal ones as well) that using a system (like having insider clerks processing your wagers, or bearding) is not allowed to circumvent limits.
I see many posters here defending Revere, who seem to speak from both sides of their mouths. When a book goes under because scammers and frauders have gotten the best of the bookie, they complain for all of the honest postups who cannot withdraw, yet from the other side of their mouths they now complain that WSEX (with deep pockets) will not pay someone who knew exactly what they were scamming from the get go, and has a history of knowing that WSEX would not knowingly take those bets.
No matter how many computer glitches, or employee mistakes are handled and fixed, there will always be more ways to circumvent a system and do what you know you would not be able to do legitimately.
I dont think that any of us should have to worry about our offshore bankrolls and I dont think that our bankrolls should be at risk because a scammer is trying to get one over on a book. If Revere wanted 40k, he should have made a call to make sure he really got down on it. If he laid it off and lost the other side, good for him, he deserves to eat it on basic right-and-wrong principal.
The only fair thing I see here is for WSEX to pay on the first 500 (or other standard wager amount that Revere has made in the past), to ramp up the price reasonably, and let him have the win on the same amount at the new price (since that was his previous m.o.) and leave it at that.
To back Revere in this case, and to complain about bankrupt books because of fraud is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. GET REAL!!!
just my 2cents.
-lifesabet
This case is as clear as black and white to me.
REVERE TRIED TO CIRCUMVENT THE LIMITS BY CONSTRUCTING MULTIPLE SMALL BETS TO FLY UNDER THE RADAR.
WSEX obviously has set a precedence with Revere by ramping up prices with successive wagers bet at the limits (supply and demand, this is totally normal). In other cases, ramping prices upward allowed Revere to get down on 2 bets before he felt that he had no further advantage and stopped wagering.
WSEX does not have a clear rule about trying to circumvent limits with small wagers (maybe they should) however their rule #16 says that Las Vegas rules apply where not explicitely outlined. Im sure that Las Vegas has rules (and possibly criminal ones as well) that using a system (like having insider clerks processing your wagers, or bearding) is not allowed to circumvent limits.
I see many posters here defending Revere, who seem to speak from both sides of their mouths. When a book goes under because scammers and frauders have gotten the best of the bookie, they complain for all of the honest postups who cannot withdraw, yet from the other side of their mouths they now complain that WSEX (with deep pockets) will not pay someone who knew exactly what they were scamming from the get go, and has a history of knowing that WSEX would not knowingly take those bets.
No matter how many computer glitches, or employee mistakes are handled and fixed, there will always be more ways to circumvent a system and do what you know you would not be able to do legitimately.
I dont think that any of us should have to worry about our offshore bankrolls and I dont think that our bankrolls should be at risk because a scammer is trying to get one over on a book. If Revere wanted 40k, he should have made a call to make sure he really got down on it. If he laid it off and lost the other side, good for him, he deserves to eat it on basic right-and-wrong principal.
The only fair thing I see here is for WSEX to pay on the first 500 (or other standard wager amount that Revere has made in the past), to ramp up the price reasonably, and let him have the win on the same amount at the new price (since that was his previous m.o.) and leave it at that.
To back Revere in this case, and to complain about bankrupt books because of fraud is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. GET REAL!!!
just my 2cents.
-lifesabet
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LIFESABET:
Revere, Nice try! I think everyone should try to take shots at bookmakers... however, I dont think you should bank on it.
This case is as clear as black and white to me.
REVERE TRIED TO CIRCUMVENT THE LIMITS BY CONSTRUCTING MULTIPLE SMALL BETS TO FLY UNDER THE RADAR.
WSEX obviously has set a precedence with Revere by ramping up prices with successive wagers bet at the limits (supply and demand, this is totally normal). In other cases, ramping prices upward allowed Revere to get down on 2 bets before he felt that he had no further advantage and stopped wagering.
WSEX does not have a clear rule about trying to circumvent limits with small wagers (maybe they should) however their rule #16 says that Las Vegas rules apply where not explicitely outlined. Im sure that Las Vegas has rules (and possibly criminal ones as well) that using a system (like having insider clerks processing your wagers, or bearding) is not allowed to circumvent limits.
I see many posters here defending Revere, who seem to speak from both sides of their mouths. When a book goes under because scammers and frauders have gotten the best of the bookie, they complain for all of the honest postups who cannot withdraw, yet from the other side of their mouths they now complain that WSEX (with deep pockets) will not pay someone who knew exactly what they were scamming from the get go, and has a history of knowing that WSEX would not knowingly take those bets.
No matter how many computer glitches, or employee mistakes are handled and fixed, there will always be more ways to circumvent a system and do what you know you would not be able to do legitimately.
I dont think that any of us should have to worry about our offshore bankrolls and I dont think that our bankrolls should be at risk because a scammer is trying to get one over on a book. If Revere wanted 40k, he should have made a call to make sure he really got down on it. If he laid it off and lost the other side, good for him, he deserves to eat it on basic right-and-wrong principal.
The only fair thing I see here is for WSEX to pay on the first 500 (or other standard wager amount that Revere has made in the past), to ramp up the price reasonably, and let him have the win on the same amount at the new price (since that was his previous m.o.) and leave it at that.
To back Revere in this case, and to complain about bankrupt books because of fraud is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. GET REAL!!!
just my 2cents.
-lifesabet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
THIS IS PROBABLY THE BEST WORDED RESPONSE TO THIS WHOLE THING I HAVE READ YET.....
Revere, Nice try! I think everyone should try to take shots at bookmakers... however, I dont think you should bank on it.
This case is as clear as black and white to me.
REVERE TRIED TO CIRCUMVENT THE LIMITS BY CONSTRUCTING MULTIPLE SMALL BETS TO FLY UNDER THE RADAR.
WSEX obviously has set a precedence with Revere by ramping up prices with successive wagers bet at the limits (supply and demand, this is totally normal). In other cases, ramping prices upward allowed Revere to get down on 2 bets before he felt that he had no further advantage and stopped wagering.
WSEX does not have a clear rule about trying to circumvent limits with small wagers (maybe they should) however their rule #16 says that Las Vegas rules apply where not explicitely outlined. Im sure that Las Vegas has rules (and possibly criminal ones as well) that using a system (like having insider clerks processing your wagers, or bearding) is not allowed to circumvent limits.
I see many posters here defending Revere, who seem to speak from both sides of their mouths. When a book goes under because scammers and frauders have gotten the best of the bookie, they complain for all of the honest postups who cannot withdraw, yet from the other side of their mouths they now complain that WSEX (with deep pockets) will not pay someone who knew exactly what they were scamming from the get go, and has a history of knowing that WSEX would not knowingly take those bets.
No matter how many computer glitches, or employee mistakes are handled and fixed, there will always be more ways to circumvent a system and do what you know you would not be able to do legitimately.
I dont think that any of us should have to worry about our offshore bankrolls and I dont think that our bankrolls should be at risk because a scammer is trying to get one over on a book. If Revere wanted 40k, he should have made a call to make sure he really got down on it. If he laid it off and lost the other side, good for him, he deserves to eat it on basic right-and-wrong principal.
The only fair thing I see here is for WSEX to pay on the first 500 (or other standard wager amount that Revere has made in the past), to ramp up the price reasonably, and let him have the win on the same amount at the new price (since that was his previous m.o.) and leave it at that.
To back Revere in this case, and to complain about bankrupt books because of fraud is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. GET REAL!!!
just my 2cents.
-lifesabet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
THIS IS PROBABLY THE BEST WORDED RESPONSE TO THIS WHOLE THING I HAVE READ YET.....
You guys are making a good argument on why the wagers were cancellable -- ABLE to be cancelled. However, a necessary implication of being cancellable is that in fact they must also be cancelled. They weren't. WSEX made the choice to let the wagers stand by sitting on it and not cancelling for 5 hours. It is a hard and fast requirement that to cancel any time after an event has started the book MUST do so as quick as reasonably possible. 5 hours after being aware of the situation is not reasonable. The notion that there wasn't someone there that could do it just doesn't pass the smell test. No way. WSEX people didn't just jump off the boat yesterday. They failed entirely to make their cancelling intentions clear until after the event was incomplete. Either the book was "taking a shot" -- gambling -- in which case you gamble you lose, or the book was grossly incompetent. In any case, in whatever light you view it the book failed to live up to their responsibility here and as a result must pay. If they want to change some of the odds in a reasonable manner, then fine. But the wagers cannot be cancelled post hoc. The only fact that amtters here is that a WSEX manager learned of the situation at 6:30, game started at 7:00, game finished and wagers cancelled some 5 hours later at 11:30. They blew their chance to cancel the wagers. It's that simple. The focus here needs to be on the book not on the player.
By the way, I'm not defending Revere14. What he did was stupid and he should have knon better.
But there are two requirements when a book purports to cancel. One of them that is that the book must do so as quicly as reasonably possible, particularly when the match has started or is about to start. 5 hours is not reasonable in general and not reasonable in this case from the facts we've heard. Case closed.
But there are two requirements when a book purports to cancel. One of them that is that the book must do so as quicly as reasonably possible, particularly when the match has started or is about to start. 5 hours is not reasonable in general and not reasonable in this case from the facts we've heard. Case closed.
D2bets, you have an excellent point.
If the book was well aware of exactly how much he had on the game before it started, and was taking a shot, then a bet is a bet.
I dont think its quite that simple. A single bet at 40k taken in error is easy to see. Pages a mile long of small bets definitely smells fishy, and whether management actually had time to review everything, try to contact Revere (who was definitely up to something) and cancel all these bets in time, is anything but clear.
I still think this is a simple situation. WSEX made a precedent that 500 was the limit, that they'd ramp the price and take another bet (and probably more at new prices). Revere without a doubt was fraudulently taking an unfair shot at their system, fully aware that he was doing something that they would not have allowed if done in plain view. Assuming that WSEX was taking a shot by waiting until the game was over is probably incorrect. If they tried to contact Revere and could not, then they just had a ton of data to fix, some major management decisions, and not enough time to get it done.
Maybe the Antigua Gaming Board should have a beef with WSEX for letting this happen, without protection via rules and/or quicker reports, more control on the sum of the individual wagers. But I dont think Revere has a leg to stand on, every aspect of his actions were voluntary, devious and fraudulent; WSEX was simply in error for being a target and not having enough protection in place to stop the onslought (but they are protecting their honest player postup money by not paying out this fraud, and they are standing their ground just as they should).
My position remains the same:
Judgement: for the plaintiff, $1000 action on 2 different prices! court dismissed
-lifesabet
If the book was well aware of exactly how much he had on the game before it started, and was taking a shot, then a bet is a bet.
I dont think its quite that simple. A single bet at 40k taken in error is easy to see. Pages a mile long of small bets definitely smells fishy, and whether management actually had time to review everything, try to contact Revere (who was definitely up to something) and cancel all these bets in time, is anything but clear.
I still think this is a simple situation. WSEX made a precedent that 500 was the limit, that they'd ramp the price and take another bet (and probably more at new prices). Revere without a doubt was fraudulently taking an unfair shot at their system, fully aware that he was doing something that they would not have allowed if done in plain view. Assuming that WSEX was taking a shot by waiting until the game was over is probably incorrect. If they tried to contact Revere and could not, then they just had a ton of data to fix, some major management decisions, and not enough time to get it done.
Maybe the Antigua Gaming Board should have a beef with WSEX for letting this happen, without protection via rules and/or quicker reports, more control on the sum of the individual wagers. But I dont think Revere has a leg to stand on, every aspect of his actions were voluntary, devious and fraudulent; WSEX was simply in error for being a target and not having enough protection in place to stop the onslought (but they are protecting their honest player postup money by not paying out this fraud, and they are standing their ground just as they should).
My position remains the same:
Judgement: for the plaintiff, $1000 action on 2 different prices! court dismissed
-lifesabet
From what Steve says above: Revere is due to be paid on a $500. bet. (You all won't like that, but that's all he's due!) He had never pulled this stunt before and lost!
Now--Steve, Stronly advise you to fix that software. Even though I think you are 100% right here, that could get to be a sticky--VERY sticky situation.
WSEX is a pioneer and one of the GREATS in the industry--Fix the Software, so clowns like the above won't try this again.
Now--Steve, Stronly advise you to fix that software. Even though I think you are 100% right here, that could get to be a sticky--VERY sticky situation.
WSEX is a pioneer and one of the GREATS in the industry--Fix the Software, so clowns like the above won't try this again.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LIFESABET:
D2bets, you have an excellent point.
If the book was well aware of exactly how much he had on the game before it started, and was taking a shot, then a bet is a bet.
I dont think its quite that simple. A single bet at 40k taken in error is easy to see. Pages a mile long of small bets definitely smells fishy, and whether management actually had time to review everything, try to contact Revere (who was definitely up to something) and cancel all these bets in time, is anything but clear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steve from WSEX posted here that he was made aware of the wagers at his home at 6:30, 30 mins before the event. He claimed that his girls tried to contact the player to no avail and that there was no one aroudn to cancel the wagers. Others have pointed out here that Antigua is a tiny island and even if no one else could possibly have done so he could have been there to do it within 10 minutes, let alone 5 hours. If steve has more facts and reasons to explain why he didn't cancel sooner, then bring it on, but unless he has some plausible reasons then it is not good enough. 40K in wagers should have gotten his attention and he chould have realized that it was incumbent on him to handle this ASAP.
D2bets, you have an excellent point.
If the book was well aware of exactly how much he had on the game before it started, and was taking a shot, then a bet is a bet.
I dont think its quite that simple. A single bet at 40k taken in error is easy to see. Pages a mile long of small bets definitely smells fishy, and whether management actually had time to review everything, try to contact Revere (who was definitely up to something) and cancel all these bets in time, is anything but clear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Steve from WSEX posted here that he was made aware of the wagers at his home at 6:30, 30 mins before the event. He claimed that his girls tried to contact the player to no avail and that there was no one aroudn to cancel the wagers. Others have pointed out here that Antigua is a tiny island and even if no one else could possibly have done so he could have been there to do it within 10 minutes, let alone 5 hours. If steve has more facts and reasons to explain why he didn't cancel sooner, then bring it on, but unless he has some plausible reasons then it is not good enough. 40K in wagers should have gotten his attention and he chould have realized that it was incumbent on him to handle this ASAP.
