Why does the left root against America?

KMAN · Dec 18, 2003

I don't get it. Whether it's Clinton or Bush in the White House I supported there decision and not once ever wished anything bad to happen to the US. However, it seems like the whole Democratic party is hoping for bad things to happen to the US just to get their party in office.

It reminds me of players like Joe Horn, and Chad Johnson who don't care if there team gets penalized 15 yards for something dumb that they do. As long as they get theirs, F the team. That seems to be the same attitude of the Democrats. "F the US as long as there is a democratic president.

KMAN

Phaedrus · Dec 18, 2003

posted by KMAN:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Whether it's Clinton or Bush in the White House I supported there decision and not once ever wished anything bad to happen to the US.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right off the bat, I think you're lying on the first point, unless you've undergone a radical change in political philosophy since January 2001.

Second, since when does not supporting the president constitute wishing ill on America?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
It reminds me of players like Joe Horn, and Chad Johnson who don't care if there team gets penalized 15 yards for something dumb that they do. As long as they get theirs, F the team. That seems to be the same attitude of the Democrats. "F the US as long as there is a democratic president.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The United States is not a "team" and we are not all trying to win some great nebulous game ... although that does seem to be the agenda and attitude of the incumbent administration, this does not neccessarily apply to all 280 million or so of us.

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."

--Theodore Roosevelt

"Government is not reason: It is not eloquence, it is Force, like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

--George Washington

"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair."

--H.L. Mencken

Phaedrus

Oceans11 · Dec 18, 2003

People like Bush who think they are on a mission from God are too dangerous, plus hes surrounded by like-minded zealots.

The USA had a lot of international support in the Clintoon era, and 9/11 reinforced that, even with Bush in power.
The Afghanistan operation was a natural progression of that.

Then he got delusional, and invaded Iraq.

--------------------------------------------
If someone in your area owns an abrahams tank, and keeps the peace with it, using it only when they absolutely HAVE to, and with the minimum of firepower that keeps the more violent residents in line, then you can respect and trust them to do the right thing.

If they move out, and the new guy who gets the tank decides unilaterally that he is on a mission from God, and turns the house with the unsociable people living at the end of the street into rubble, and wipes out half the family living there, then you have a whole new ballgame.

All you can do is keep your head down and wait for the loons with the tank to move out of the area asap, because they are way more dangerous and far more potentially destructive than the vandals and unsociables.
Meanwhile the vandals and unsociables just get smarter and sneakier, unless you do a Hitler job on them all.

Hitler and Stalin did have relatively crime free societies.
I don't recall either system being remembered for this achievement though.

codeworks · Dec 18, 2003

Your boys were out for blood over a BJ give me a break

Oceans11 · Dec 18, 2003

Not too sure about your avatar code...it looks a bit..um violent..

But yup, give me a bloke who likes BJs over a bloke who's on a mission from God any day of the week.
comparison: simple male vs locked ward male

xpanda · Dec 18, 2003

I think KMan's question is a very important issue right now ... I've seen several articles and subsequent opinions leading me to believe that some Americans would be happier if Saddam had never been found.

Not living in the US, my only estimations come from what I read on this and other message boards on these issues. That said, I think there is a very knee-jerk reaction by both sides of the political spectrum to wish bad luck on the other, regardless of the overall implications.

The politicians themselves, of course, have to deal with re-election issues, and certainly many Democratic hopefuls will understand that finding Saddam will aid in Bush's re-election bid. As for the people, as much as the knee-jerk, anti-other side jargon is spewed, there is an often equal reluctance to criticise their respective leadership. This should be one of the greatest concerns among voters ... if you cannot 'think outside the box' so to speak, and blindly accept the actions, words, policies, etc. of your incumbent, then why bother with a democratic process in the first place? Blind patriotism is as devastating to a democratic fabric as no patriotism at all.

D2bets · Dec 18, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KMAN:
I don't get it. Whether it's Clinton or Bush in the White House I supported there decision and not once ever wished anything bad to happen to the US. However, it seems like the whole Democratic party is hoping for bad things to happen to the US just to get their party in office.

It reminds me of players like Joe Horn, and Chad Johnson who don't care if there team gets penalized 15 yards for something dumb that they do. As long as they get theirs, F the team. That seems to be the same attitude of the Democrats. "F the US as long as there is a democratic president.

KMAN<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've always supported the President's decision, whether Repub or Dem? Maybe that's your definition of patriotism, but it's not mine. Nothing could be more patriotic than questioning your leaders and holding them accountable for their failures. And speaking out when you disagree. To me, that is the heart of patriotism. Not just blindly agreeeing with whatever the President says or does.

This is something that the Republicans have lamost made an artform out of. Questioning the patriotism of those who disagree with them by wrapping themselves in the flag. It's sickening.

Oceans11 · Dec 18, 2003

I think its nice that hes been caught.

i think its bad that his entire country has been turned into rubble to achieve that.
All that 'smart bomb' stuff is just such BS.

On the downside a lot of people in the middle east would be very angry with the humiliating spatula shoved in the mouth footage that was released by the western newsagencies shortly after the initial capture.

I feel sure that ANY American prisoner that got the same sort of treatment would immediately derive a huge amount of support from any people that empathised with their particular 'side' in this conflict.

The whole episode is far from finished.
If the US keeps using heavy machine guns and vietnam tactics to maintain the population then Mr Saddam will become a folk hero and a Martyr for many years and generations to come, no matter what they do to him.
He was the man that started it all, whether he lives or dies.

EverFresh · Dec 18, 2003

As a seventh (yes that's 7th) generation American, I resent anyone telling me who I can or can't "root" for.

Our constitution GUARANTEES me the right to have an opinion!

PatPatriot · Dec 18, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>think its nice that hes been caught.

i think its bad that his entire country has been turned into rubble to achieve that.
All that 'smart bomb' stuff is just such BS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They were bombed UP to the stone age.

D2bets · Dec 18, 2003

Patriot, do you agree with KMAN that it's unpatriotic to not support the President's decisions? And did you support all of Clinton's decisions while in the White House, like KMAN says he did? I know I didn't!

GrandSlam+ · Dec 18, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by D2bets:
Patriot, do you agree with KMAN that it's unpatriotic to not support the President's decisions? And did you support all of Clinton's decisions while in the White House, like KMAN says he did? I know I didn't!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D2, where did KMan say it was unpatriotic to not support a President's decisions? He did imply that it was unpatriotic to hope America fails if that failure leads to a Democratic presidency. Do you disagree with that?

PatPatriot · Dec 18, 2003

D2 ... an example of Patriotism to me is Robin Williams,he is against the war but where is he?On an USO tour in Iraq...What I think is unpatriotic is being critical and not offering a alternative solution because all you do is comfort and purpose to the terrorist.
...like Dennis Miller says about some protesters..".everybodys Hitler except the guy who throws people in wood chippers." To me those people are unpatriotic.
Most of the protest are organized by communist groups who are anti american in the first place they are unpatriotic.
These actors and actresses who use their celebrity to be anti war but offer no solutions are unpatriotic...then at the same time say they support the troops well if they do what are they doing for them??

D2bets · Dec 18, 2003

GS, it seemed to me that he tied the two together -- supporting the President's decisions and not wishing anything bad -- as both being the patriotic thing to do. Maybe I read it wrong or maybe he said it wrong. The concept that many Republicans believe that if you disagree with Bush you are unpatriotic. Bush himself fostered this with his "you are either with us or against us" -- translated to...if you disagree with me about this war then you are against America and are unpatriotic.

Patriot, I don't buy the comfort and purpose the terrorist thing. And nothing has brought the terrorists closer together than the war in Iraq.

And that's another thing -- sayin that being anti-war is not supporting the troops. Why isn't wanting to bring them home safely supporting them? To me that's about as supprtive as one can get.

In any case, the best way I know to supprt the troops is to elect one -- VOTE WESLEY CLARK!

...p.s the division that captured Saddam was twice commanded by Wes, so I'd say he deserves more credit for their accomplishment than Bush.

PatPatriot · Dec 18, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And that's another thing -- sayin that being anti-war is not supporting the troops. Why isn't wanting to bring them home safely supporting them? To me that's about as supprtive as one can get.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I couldn't agree with you more but when some people make assinine remarks and excuses for Iraq and 9/11..just because they hate bush...then say they support the troops as a disclaimer...are unpatriotic.You can't call an individual unpatriotic only they know it...Its like pornography I know it when I see it.

KMAN · Dec 19, 2003

You libs sure can twist words around can't you. I just don't understand how so many people can be smarter than the President but instead of leading our country they are here in a message board posting about how dumb the President is.

Phaedrus, Eek, Codeworks, D2Bets, Everfresh - You guys are obviously some of the most brilliant people on the planet and would make wonderful presidents. Your advanced knowledge and understanding of everything that goes on in America is overwhelming. Why don't you guys stop wasting time, on some message board, bitching about our President, and go out there and run for the Presidency and solve all of the problems that the US is having. Wouldn't that make the most sense??????

The reason I supported Clinton (I may not have agreed with him) but the reason I supported him is because he knows more than I do about what is going on and I trust him to make the right decisions.

The only difference between you and me is that I can admit that the President knows more than I do......you guys can't!

KMAN

D2bets · Dec 19, 2003

KMAN, so basically if you disagree with the President you cannot say so unless you plan on running for President? That's quite possibly the silliest thing I've read on here yet. I don't need to run for President to criticize him.

And I don't trust someone simply because they may "know more" than me. There's plenty of people who know a lot, even the same amoutn,a dn they can completely disagree about something. They can't both be right, can they? I mean KMAN, seriously, what do you do if you have two senators, same age and experience, btih appear to have similar knowledge, but they disagree on something. How do you know which one to agree with since they both know (the same amount) more than you and presumably you should then trust them both.

The President may KNOW more than me but that doesn't mean that I necessarily trust them to do the right thing about everything. Knowledge does not = being right.

KMAN · Dec 19, 2003

D2Bets - You are exactly right, but why is your opinion right and the President's wrong? I have no problems criticizing the President but if you were to analyze and make a decision don't you think that the more information you have the better decision you will make?

KMAN

D2bets · Dec 19, 2003

You hit the nail on the head. It's not always a matter of right and wrong, it's an OPINION. Opinions actually, I believe, by definition cannot be right or wrong.

As for information, in itself it's nice, but in the hands of a politician it is usually just more ammo to drive a particular agenda (ignore the bad info and use the good info), which if you happen to agree with then it's great, and if you don't then it's not so. Two rational people looking at the same info can come to diametrically opposed conclusions -- opinions and agendas.

KMAN · Dec 19, 2003

So why does the left call the President an idiot if nobody's opinion is any better than another's????

He's an idiot because the Left believe's something different??????

Why doesn't the Left concentrate on making things better instead of concentrating on tearing the President down?

Right now, the whole Left agenda is based on the President failing. If the President fails America fails. Which means the Left is rooting for America to fail. Which is my whole point, I don't understand how you could want the country you live in to fail?????

How are smear tactics good for the country? Isn't it about time someone on the Left starts offering some solutions instead of continuing to try to find problems with the Right?????

KMAN