Another possibility for baseball could be Jackie Robinson. He was a great shortstop in the Negro Leagues and minor leagues, but wasn't going to replace the white guy so the Dodgers moved him around to four different places and he was great at all of them. Something no one else is history has been able to do (mostly because a great middle infielder or centerfielder isn't going anywhere, but still shows such a great natural ability)
Also, while at secondbase, the position he played more than half the time, the Dodgers pitching staff allowed few runners to reach first base, gave up few groundballs, yet the team still turned a lot of double plays. Once he was into his mid-30s and replaced by another good fielder, the number dropped
Also, while at secondbase, the position he played more than half the time, the Dodgers pitching staff allowed few runners to reach first base, gave up few groundballs, yet the team still turned a lot of double plays. Once he was into his mid-30s and replaced by another good fielder, the number dropped
1 word, rodman
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Rodman isn't even on the list.
http://mvn.com/outsider/2008/10/the-greatest-defensive-players.html
October 21, 2008
The Greatest Defensive Players in NBA/ABA History
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Fans, sportswriters and others are quick to compile all-time lists, and pro basketball is no exception. Greatest teams, best coaches, best player, best dunk- you know the drill. Time has demonstrated that is is defense that wins NBA championships (the Pistons, the Bulls, the 1960's Celtics). Seldom do we see all-time defensive teams, or even a list such as this one:
Greatest Defensive Players in NBA/ABA History (in no particular order)
Hakeem Olajuwon, C, 1984-2002
He faced them all- Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. Their defensive challenge was to thwart his guard-like spins and fakes- his to combat their lofty scoring prowess. The Houston late bloomer was named NBA All-Defensive first or second team every year from '84 to '97. Ewing was a superior shot blocker, but Olajuwon the more agile all-around defender. Dream averaged two steals or more five times- each in a season during which he also averaged nearly or above three blocked shots. He was quick to get out on shooters, a high riser, and had the balance and lateral movement of a soccer player. In 1990, his 4.6 blocks a game led the league, as did his 4.2 average in 1993. When Michael Jordan sat out two years (or more accurately, pursued a baseball dream while gambling stories quieted down), Olajuwon led the Rockets to back-to-back championships. Five years earlier (1989), he averaged 2.6 steals, 3.4 rejections, and a league-leading 13.5 boards.
Nate Thurmond, C, 1963-1977
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said Thurmond was the toughest center he ever faced- and that includes Wilt Chamberlain. The sinewy Bowling Green star brought tenacity, smarts, and strength to the post wars vs. Chamberlain, Wills Reed, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy and Zelmo Beatty. So valauble was Thurmond that when trade talks surfaced in 1965, owner Franklin Mieuli parted with Chamberlain, but would not entertain offers for Thurmond. He averaged at least 18 rebounds a night every year from 1964-65 through '68-'69, and no telling how many blocked shots. Thurmond played in seven All-Star Games, and no big man of his time looked forward to facing the 6'11" Warrior. The first season he played when blocked shots were tallied, he averaged 2.9 a contest at age 32.
K.C. Jones, G, 1957-66
Strong, determined and cat-quick- the L.A. Rams drafted Jones to play defensive back- despite the fact he had played no college football. In an era of guards such as Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Hal Greer, Richie Guerin and Guy Rodgers, he drew the tough assignments and met the challenges. He was to the exterior of the vaunted Boston Celtics resistance what Bill Russell was to the interior- former college teammates on a mission to stop scorers and take the best out of their game (physically and psychologically). Jones once said the secret to effective defense was making the offensive player do one more thing, or once less, than what he was comfortable doing. This half of The Jones Boys was a major cog in a dynasty, a star before the NBA kept statistics for steals.
Scottie Pippen, F, 1987-2004
Before the Bulls drafted this college unknown, Michael Jordan was ringless. By the time Pippen finally hung up his sneakers, he had helped three different clubs become contenders. The quickness, the long arms, the will to guard the best. Pippen was named one of The League's Fifty Greatest Players of all time in 1997, while still active- largely a testament to his defensive prowess. Pippen could. swarm, steal, play passing lanes, and finish turnovers in transition with the most resounding dunks since Doctor J. For a decade, he was first or second-team NBA All-Defensive, and deservedly so. His abilities freed Jordan up to guard the second or third most dangerous opposing wing player- a key to the Bulls' lengthy success.
Alvin Robertson, G, 1984-1996
Before "The Glove", there was Robertson. The fact he was the seventh overall pick in a stacked 1984 NBA Draft should have told us something. The 6'3" guard out of Arkansas would go on to blanket the NBA's premier players- Isiah Thomas, "Magic" Johnson, John Stockton, Michael Jordan, "Sugar" Ray Richardson, Kevin Johnson, and Mark Price. The league's steals leader in 1986 and '87, he averaged three or more steals in five different seasons (four of them consecutive). Robertson also averaged more than six rebounds four times, including an impressive 6.9 in 1989-90.
Bill Russell, C, 1956-69
The consumate competitor and wily psychologist evolved from a kid who didn't start for his high school team as an eleventh grader, to a man that revolutionized his sport. Russ's leaping ability, reaction time, and judgement made what had previously been the highest percentage shots by the oppostion appear risky.
His leadership and intimidation caused scouts and coaches to seek shot blocking bigs, and though, in some sense, Pat Ewing, Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Manute Bol, David Robinson and Emeka Okafor all owe something to his tradition, none have equaled his 11-championship success.
Paul Silas, F, 1964-1980
Like Russell, Silas was an Oakland public school product that made good. Maybe there's something in the water- Gary Payton is an Oakland boy. Silas was a quiet leader, a shutdown defender, and one of the greatest rebounders ever to play the game. A fixture on the Renaissance Celtics teams of the mid-1970's and the championship level Sonics teams of a few years later, Silas was Dennis Rodman without tats and earrings. Stellar power forwards were everywhere when he played (Gus Johnson, Dave DeBuscherre, Jerry Lucas, George McGinnis and Luke Jackson among them) and Silas battled with them for space and rebounds. Few policed the lane like him, and he played it clean. Despite those wars, he didn't call it quits until he was 37.
Willie Wise, F, 1969-78
The ABA was a freewheeling, fastbreaking, forward-driven league. Superstars such as Rick Barry, Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Billy Cunningham, Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood made it what it was. The man best suited to watch all those high-flying forwards was Drake product Willie Wise. Though only 6'5", it was Wise who most said gave them fits. The Los Angeles and Utah Star relished the opportunity to take on the superstars. His gifts lifted his teams into ABA Finals contention. Only he and the much younger Bobby Jones could make the game's greatest frontcourt scorers (superior even to those in the rival NBA) work hard for their points. All this while contributing 20 ppg. for four consecutive seasons- Wise was no one-dimensional cherry picker. The real Doc. The Hawk in his prime. A young, strong Haywood. Barry. Cunningham. The stories he must tell his grandkids.
Dick Barnett, G, 1959-74
15 years is a good stretch for an NBA guard. Many would not expect Barnett's name to be here- he the flashy leader of three Division II champs at Tennessee State, and the Knicks' jumpshooter with the tucked-legs form. Yet it was "Skull" who commanded the toughest defensive assignments over the years. As much credit as the Lakers' Jerry West received and deserved as a defender, Barnett was the one guarding Celtics' leading scorer Sam Jones when the NBA Finals came around. Later (in his thirties), when West was an opponent, Barnett, not Knick defensive icon Walt "Clyde" Frazier, shadowed NBA scoring leader West during the 1969-70 Finals. Sound strange? Don't let the sleepy appearance fool you- Barnett was always considered one of the league's premier defensive guards- in his heyday a quicksilver, trashtalking 6'4" who had played for one of America's premier college coaches- Dr. John McClendon. Like Pippen with Jordan, his willingness and facility guarding the enemy's best scorers allowed stars such as West and Frazier to play more of a free safety or "cheating" role, and thus pile up steals.
Gary Payton, G, 1990-2006
He covered speedy point guards, lanky shooting guards, and more than his share of small forwards. From Isiah to Stockton to "Magic" to Jordan, "The Glove" gave it his best. From 1992-93 through 1998-99 he averaged at least two steals a game, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Payton was a catalyst, a defensive quarterback. His nose for the ball triggered numerous fast breaks, on many of which he was the coast-to-coast finisher. He was draped over the opposing ballhandler like a uniform, and chattering away all the time. When the Sonics had Payton, Vince Askew, and Nate McMillan, passing against them was a nightmare experience, and they reacted more quickly to ball swings than any team I've seen before or since. After nine All-Star Games, Payton finally earned a championship ring with the Miami Heat. What a fitting cap to a career during which he never took a minute, much less a night off.
Sidney Moncrief, G, 1979-1991
It's hard to believe Moncrief was only 6'3", given that he guarded players the size and skill of Michael Jordan. One of three players on this list who played his college ball in Arkansas, many considered him the premier defender of his day. The 5ht overall selection in the deep NBA Draft of 1979, he saw action in five All-Star Games, and was league Defensive Player of the Year in both 1983 and 1984. In a high-scoring era defined by Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Michael Jordan, Lloyd Free and Jeff Malone, the Bucks turned to the unassuming Moncrief to kill the noise. He responded. Moncrief did the best job on Jordan before the arrival of the much taller Gerald Wilkins in the league, and even was assigned 6'9" Larry Bird. To this day, surpassing defenders are compared to Moncrief, who combined film study, desire, and leaping ability into an unforgettable package.
The Best of the Rest, by Position
C- Robert Parrish, Alonzo Mourning, Artis Gilmore, Wilt Chamberlain, Pat Ewing, George Johnson, David Robinson, Mel Daniels
F- Robert Horry, Luke Jackson, Gerald Wilkins, Larry Smith, Dan Roundfield, "Satch" Sanders, Bobby Jones, Dave DeBuscherre, Bill Bridges, Michael Cooper, Gus Johnson
G- T.R. Dunn, Ron Lee, Vince Askew, Dan Majerle, "Fat" Lever, Fred Carter, Maurice Cheeks, Fatty Taylor, Dennis Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Mike Gale, Joe Caldwell, Joe Dumars, Walt Frazier
Comments: As much as has been written about Rodman as a defender, his performances during the NBA Finals, as a Bull, convinced me that he was far more concerned with rebounding than defense, and would too often leave his man (Shawn Kemp or Karl Malone) to go collect a carom. Kemp killed Rodman during the NBA Finals. Bruce Bowen, IMHO, is overrated, and lacks the quickness I like in a defender. He is a good defensive role player, but the men I have listed are almost all capable, unlike Bowen, of guarding a smaller position. As far as young guns, perhaps Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor will someday make these lists.
Last edited:
a good measure of how good a defensive player would
be to look at his playing time versus his offensive production.
am example in baseball would be gary mathews jr who for
years couldn't hit for squat, but his glove was so good
that it kept him in the league until he learned how to hit.
ozzie smith would be prime example of that in baseball.
in basketball, the celtics always seemed to have a power
forward like tom sanders or paul silas who couldn't shoot,
but could play defense. manute bol was a great shot blocker
who couldn't score or shoot (until one day he made 3 pointer
but that's a different story), but he can't be considered one
of the greats because he only weighed 70 lbs and could not
match up physically to the strong centers in the league.
rodman was another who couldn't shoot, but his rebounding and
defense made him a valuable member of teams that could score but
needed help in those other areas. there are many great defensive defensemen in the nhl who score very little who will never get consideration for the norris due to their lack of offense. at least
the nhl has the selke award for defensive minded forwards, but even
that award is skewed, like the norris, towards those players who score and play good defense rather than those only highly skilled in
the defensive aspects of the game.
be to look at his playing time versus his offensive production.
am example in baseball would be gary mathews jr who for
years couldn't hit for squat, but his glove was so good
that it kept him in the league until he learned how to hit.
ozzie smith would be prime example of that in baseball.
in basketball, the celtics always seemed to have a power
forward like tom sanders or paul silas who couldn't shoot,
but could play defense. manute bol was a great shot blocker
who couldn't score or shoot (until one day he made 3 pointer
but that's a different story), but he can't be considered one
of the greats because he only weighed 70 lbs and could not
match up physically to the strong centers in the league.
rodman was another who couldn't shoot, but his rebounding and
defense made him a valuable member of teams that could score but
needed help in those other areas. there are many great defensive defensemen in the nhl who score very little who will never get consideration for the norris due to their lack of offense. at least
the nhl has the selke award for defensive minded forwards, but even
that award is skewed, like the norris, towards those players who score and play good defense rather than those only highly skilled in
the defensive aspects of the game.
Rodman isn't even on the list.
http://mvn.com/outsider/2008/10/the-greatest-defensive-players.html
October 21, 2008
The Greatest Defensive Players in NBA/ABA History
4 Comments
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Fans, sportswriters and others are quick to compile all-time lists, and pro basketball is no exception. Greatest teams, best coaches, best player, best dunk- you know the drill. Time has demonstrated that is is defense that wins NBA championships (the Pistons, the Bulls, the 1960's Celtics). Seldom do we see all-time defensive teams, or even a list such as this one:
Greatest Defensive Players in NBA/ABA History (in no particular order)
Hakeem Olajuwon, C, 1984-2002
He faced them all- Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. Their defensive challenge was to thwart his guard-like spins and fakes- his to combat their lofty scoring prowess. The Houston late bloomer was named NBA All-Defensive first or second team every year from '84 to '97. Ewing was a superior shot blocker, but Olajuwon the more agile all-around defender. Dream averaged two steals or more five times- each in a season during which he also averaged nearly or above three blocked shots. He was quick to get out on shooters, a high riser, and had the balance and lateral movement of a soccer player. In 1990, his 4.6 blocks a game led the league, as did his 4.2 average in 1993. When Michael Jordan sat out two years (or more accurately, pursued a baseball dream while gambling stories quieted down), Olajuwon led the Rockets to back-to-back championships. Five years earlier (1989), he averaged 2.6 steals, 3.4 rejections, and a league-leading 13.5 boards.
Nate Thurmond, C, 1963-1977
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said Thurmond was the toughest center he ever faced- and that includes Wilt Chamberlain. The sinewy Bowling Green star brought tenacity, smarts, and strength to the post wars vs. Chamberlain, Wills Reed, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy and Zelmo Beatty. So valauble was Thurmond that when trade talks surfaced in 1965, owner Franklin Mieuli parted with Chamberlain, but would not entertain offers for Thurmond. He averaged at least 18 rebounds a night every year from 1964-65 through '68-'69, and no telling how many blocked shots. Thurmond played in seven All-Star Games, and no big man of his time looked forward to facing the 6'11" Warrior. The first season he played when blocked shots were tallied, he averaged 2.9 a contest at age 32.
K.C. Jones, G, 1957-66
Strong, determined and cat-quick- the L.A. Rams drafted Jones to play defensive back- despite the fact he had played no college football. In an era of guards such as Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Hal Greer, Richie Guerin and Guy Rodgers, he drew the tough assignments and met the challenges. He was to the exterior of the vaunted Boston Celtics resistance what Bill Russell was to the interior- former college teammates on a mission to stop scorers and take the best out of their game (physically and psychologically). Jones once said the secret to effective defense was making the offensive player do one more thing, or once less, than what he was comfortable doing. This half of The Jones Boys was a major cog in a dynasty, a star before the NBA kept statistics for steals.
Scottie Pippen, F, 1987-2004
Before the Bulls drafted this college unknown, Michael Jordan was ringless. By the time Pippen finally hung up his sneakers, he had helped three different clubs become contenders. The quickness, the long arms, the will to guard the best. Pippen was named one of The League's Fifty Greatest Players of all time in 1997, while still active- largely a testament to his defensive prowess. Pippen could. swarm, steal, play passing lanes, and finish turnovers in transition with the most resounding dunks since Doctor J. For a decade, he was first or second-team NBA All-Defensive, and deservedly so. His abilities freed Jordan up to guard the second or third most dangerous opposing wing player- a key to the Bulls' lengthy success.
Alvin Robertson, G, 1984-1996
Before "The Glove", there was Robertson. The fact he was the seventh overall pick in a stacked 1984 NBA Draft should have told us something. The 6'3" guard out of Arkansas would go on to blanket the NBA's premier players- Isiah Thomas, "Magic" Johnson, John Stockton, Michael Jordan, "Sugar" Ray Richardson, Kevin Johnson, and Mark Price. The league's steals leader in 1986 and '87, he averaged three or more steals in five different seasons (four of them consecutive). Robertson also averaged more than six rebounds four times, including an impressive 6.9 in 1989-90.
Bill Russell, C, 1956-69
The consumate competitor and wily psychologist evolved from a kid who didn't start for his high school team as an eleventh grader, to a man that revolutionized his sport. Russ's leaping ability, reaction time, and judgement made what had previously been the highest percentage shots by the oppostion appear risky.
His leadership and intimidation caused scouts and coaches to seek shot blocking bigs, and though, in some sense, Pat Ewing, Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Manute Bol, David Robinson and Emeka Okafor all owe something to his tradition, none have equaled his 11-championship success.
Paul Silas, F, 1964-1980
Like Russell, Silas was an Oakland public school product that made good. Maybe there's something in the water- Gary Payton is an Oakland boy. Silas was a quiet leader, a shutdown defender, and one of the greatest rebounders ever to play the game. A fixture on the Renaissance Celtics teams of the mid-1970's and the championship level Sonics teams of a few years later, Silas was Dennis Rodman without tats and earrings. Stellar power forwards were everywhere when he played (Gus Johnson, Dave DeBuscherre, Jerry Lucas, George McGinnis and Luke Jackson among them) and Silas battled with them for space and rebounds. Few policed the lane like him, and he played it clean. Despite those wars, he didn't call it quits until he was 37.
Willie Wise, F, 1969-78
The ABA was a freewheeling, fastbreaking, forward-driven league. Superstars such as Rick Barry, Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Billy Cunningham, Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood made it what it was. The man best suited to watch all those high-flying forwards was Drake product Willie Wise. Though only 6'5", it was Wise who most said gave them fits. The Los Angeles and Utah Star relished the opportunity to take on the superstars. His gifts lifted his teams into ABA Finals contention. Only he and the much younger Bobby Jones could make the game's greatest frontcourt scorers (superior even to those in the rival NBA) work hard for their points. All this while contributing 20 ppg. for four consecutive seasons- Wise was no one-dimensional cherry picker. The real Doc. The Hawk in his prime. A young, strong Haywood. Barry. Cunningham. The stories he must tell his grandkids.
Dick Barnett, G, 1959-74
15 years is a good stretch for an NBA guard. Many would not expect Barnett's name to be here- he the flashy leader of three Division II champs at Tennessee State, and the Knicks' jumpshooter with the tucked-legs form. Yet it was "Skull" who commanded the toughest defensive assignments over the years. As much credit as the Lakers' Jerry West received and deserved as a defender, Barnett was the one guarding Celtics' leading scorer Sam Jones when the NBA Finals came around. Later (in his thirties), when West was an opponent, Barnett, not Knick defensive icon Walt "Clyde" Frazier, shadowed NBA scoring leader West during the 1969-70 Finals. Sound strange? Don't let the sleepy appearance fool you- Barnett was always considered one of the league's premier defensive guards- in his heyday a quicksilver, trashtalking 6'4" who had played for one of America's premier college coaches- Dr. John McClendon. Like Pippen with Jordan, his willingness and facility guarding the enemy's best scorers allowed stars such as West and Frazier to play more of a free safety or "cheating" role, and thus pile up steals.
Gary Payton, G, 1990-2006
He covered speedy point guards, lanky shooting guards, and more than his share of small forwards. From Isiah to Stockton to "Magic" to Jordan, "The Glove" gave it his best. From 1992-93 through 1998-99 he averaged at least two steals a game, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Payton was a catalyst, a defensive quarterback. His nose for the ball triggered numerous fast breaks, on many of which he was the coast-to-coast finisher. He was draped over the opposing ballhandler like a uniform, and chattering away all the time. When the Sonics had Payton, Vince Askew, and Nate McMillan, passing against them was a nightmare experience, and they reacted more quickly to ball swings than any team I've seen before or since. After nine All-Star Games, Payton finally earned a championship ring with the Miami Heat. What a fitting cap to a career during which he never took a minute, much less a night off.
Sidney Moncrief, G, 1979-1991
It's hard to believe Moncrief was only 6'3", given that he guarded players the size and skill of Michael Jordan. One of three players on this list who played his college ball in Arkansas, many considered him the premier defender of his day. The 5ht overall selection in the deep NBA Draft of 1979, he saw action in five All-Star Games, and was league Defensive Player of the Year in both 1983 and 1984. In a high-scoring era defined by Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Michael Jordan, Lloyd Free and Jeff Malone, the Bucks turned to the unassuming Moncrief to kill the noise. He responded. Moncrief did the best job on Jordan before the arrival of the much taller Gerald Wilkins in the league, and even was assigned 6'9" Larry Bird. To this day, surpassing defenders are compared to Moncrief, who combined film study, desire, and leaping ability into an unforgettable package.
The Best of the Rest, by Position
C- Robert Parrish, Alonzo Mourning, Artis Gilmore, Wilt Chamberlain, Pat Ewing, George Johnson, David Robinson, Mel Daniels
F- Robert Horry, Luke Jackson, Gerald Wilkins, Larry Smith, Dan Roundfield, "Satch" Sanders, Bobby Jones, Dave DeBuscherre, Bill Bridges, Michael Cooper, Gus Johnson
G- T.R. Dunn, Ron Lee, Vince Askew, Dan Majerle, "Fat" Lever, Fred Carter, Maurice Cheeks, Fatty Taylor, Dennis Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Mike Gale, Joe Caldwell, Joe Dumars, Walt Frazier
Comments: As much as has been written about Rodman as a defender, his performances during the NBA Finals, as a Bull, convinced me that he was far more concerned with rebounding than defense, and would too often leave his man (Shawn Kemp or Karl Malone) to go collect a carom. Kemp killed Rodman during the NBA Finals. Bruce Bowen, IMHO, is overrated, and lacks the quickness I like in a defender. He is a good defensive role player, but the men I have listed are almost all capable, unlike Bowen, of guarding a smaller position. As far as young guns, perhaps Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor will someday make these lists.
Any list of NBA all-time defensive standouts that excludes Wayne "Tree" Rollins isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Rollins was never voted defensive player of the year.
Rollins was voted to the all-defensive first team only once in his career.
Rollins was only voted to the all-defensive second team once in his career.
The only thing I remember Tree doing was biting Danny Ainge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team
I don't care. Anyone who saw him play night in and night out knows that he (along with Roundfield) was the catalyst that sparked those very good Hawks teams in the late 70s. They were able to overplay and gamble defensively because nobody - NOBODY could drive the lane as long as the Tree was there.
