Who pays the Vigorish?

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Who pays the Vigorish?

  • The winner of the wager

    Votes: 11 22.9%
  • The loser of the wager

    Votes: 20 41.7%
  • A combination of both

    Votes: 17 35.4%

  • Total voters
    48
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There is a whole Wiki page devoted to this question, and their answer is... "it depends"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigorish
Example

A fair odds bet: Two people want to bet on opposing sides of an event with even odds. They are going to make the bet between each other without using the services of a bookmaker. Each person is willing to risk $100 to win $100. After each person pays his $100, there is a total of $200 in the pot. The person who loses receives nothing and the winner receives the full $200.
By contrast, when using a sportsbook with the odds set at −110 vs. −110 (10 to 11, 1.9090..) with vigorish factored in, each person would have to risk or lay $110 to win $100 (the sportsbook collects $220 "in the pot"). The extra $10 per person is, in effect, a bookmaker's commission for taking the action. This $10 is not in play and cannot be doubled by the winning bettor; it can only be lost. A losing bettor simply loses his $110. A winning bettor wins back his original $110, plus his $100 winnings, for a total of $210. From the $220 collected, the sportsbook keeps the remaining $10 after paying out the winner.
[edit] Discussion

In the above example, the bookmaker has taken a rake, or scaled commission fee, of $10 ÷ $220 = 4.55%. Since the winning bettor got his full $110 wager back, plus $100 in winnings, many observers will assert that only the losing bettor paid the vigorish. Others would attest that the winner — who had risked $110 and only received $210 in the end, instead of doubling his money to $220 — is the only bettor who paid the vigorish. To discuss how the bettors are affected by the vigorish, we must first define what they would have bet at fair odds (without the presence of vigorish) or else there is no way to compare how much tax is placed on the winner or loser due to the vigorish. There are unlimited possibilities for how the presence of vigorish could affect the amount wagered by a bettor, since a bettor is free to bet in any arbitrary way based on the odds. There are, however, several natural options to consider which give different results on how vigorish affects a bettor.

  1. The gambler has a target amount he wants to win, which is independent of the presence or absence of vigorish. As an example, for an even match we would have −100 vs. +100 for fair odds and the gambler wagers 100 to win 100. Under proportional vigorish the odds would become −110 vs. +100 and so gamblers must wager 110 to win 100. In this case, losers lose 110 under the juiced odds compared to 100 under fair odds, so the loser pays 10 extra. The winner gets back his 110 plus 100 profit, compared to getting back his 100 plus 100 profit under fair odds. The winner has no net difference since he is up 100 either way. So the loser pays the full vigorish of 10 under this assumption.
  2. The gambler has a given amount he is willing to risk, independent of vigorish. Under fair odds the gambler risks 100 to win 100. Under vigorish, the gambler still risks 100 to win 100 × (100 ÷ 110) = 90.9. Under this behavior, the loser loses 100 in both cases, so pays no vigorish. The winner wins 100 net under fair odds and 90.9 net under vigorish, so he pays 9.1 in vigorish. The winner pays the full vigorish under this assumption.
  3. The gambler bets more when he has a greater edge (better payout for a given chance of winning). A Kelly gambler is one such gambler, who seeks to maximize his rate of bankroll growth in the limit of infinite bets placed over time. This type of gambler will bet more when the payout reflects a bigger advantage for him. The fact that he bets at all indicates that he thinks he has an advantage in the bet, so the presence of vigorish reduces this edge by reducing the payout for a given amount wagered. Therefore, these gamblers on either side of the wager will both bet less than they would have at fair odds (assuming proportional vigorish). The losers therefore lose less than they would have under fair odds, so counter-intuitively these losers do better with vigorish. The winners not only receive a lower payout factor on their bet, but they also risked less than they would have at fair odds, so they pay the full rake of the bookmaker, plus the amount saved by the losers, since (amount cost by winners) − (amount saved by the losers) = (full vigorish raked by the bookmaker). So for these gamblers, the losers pay negative vigorish, while the winners pay more than the full vigorish raked in by the bookie.
These are three examples of possible gambler behaviors that all give different answers to the distribution of vigorish fees amongst winners and losers. One therefore cannot say precisely whether winners or losers or both are paying the vigorish until the gamblers' behaviors with respect to the fair odds and juiced odds is defined.
 

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Yeah , i agree with that. I didnt explain the argument well.

This guy's thinking was that a person risking 110 to win 100 is paying juice on losers , but a person risking 100 to win 91 is paying juice on winners. ... i cant get him to understand that an 11/10 bet , is an 11/10 bet PERIOD ! Changing the win amount with risk amount doesnt change who's paying juice.

Everyone is charged vig its jut refunded on a winning wager. In America we assume $100 bet costs $110 but its actually a $110 bet that pays $210 if it wins and costs $110 if it loses. English punters dont ask for bets that cost 110 to win 100. If they make a $100 bet they stake 100 to win 91 hence the odds quoted on an American Football or Basketball football game is 1.91.

I dont know why Americans started adding 10% to the wager amount but it was a clever way to write 10% more business. Ingenious whomever came up with the idea but more than likely it was because the average American couldn't figure out the decimal system. So some smart bookmaker added 10% to the wager amount without the clueless punter ever even knowing. Can't you imagine the uneducated hillbilly asking why his $100 bet he just lost is costing him $110? :think2:
 

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When I call my local I say "give me Denver for $100"... my goal is to win $100. If I win I get $100 which is what I intended. If I lose he says "hey give me that $100+ an extra $10 in juice"... I paid on my loss, not my win.
 

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When I call my local I say "give me Denver for $100"... my goal is to win $100. If I win I get $100 which is what I intended. If I lose he says "hey give me that $100+ an extra $10 in juice"... I paid on my loss, not my win.

So do the losers in a poker pot pay the rake then? Or does it come out of the winners winnings?
 

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winners pay the rake... losers put in the same amount regardless if there is a rake or not
The loser puts in the same regardless of the vig too.
 

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IMHO; the winner of a bet does not get his true payout; that less than fair payout is what people generally refer to as the vig; the loser just loses....does not matter what the house take may have been...

but you can look at it from different angles..

jmho...gl
 

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i would argue both pay the vig
you can't escape it

fair odds is +100
at -110 the contract is set up in a way that you pay 10% up front as a loss or 10% of the stake if you win.
 

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err i cant reword/edit it past but it's actually not 10% of the stake. essentially, i meant to say they deduct the vig from the payout. ie. if i lay 110, i'm only getting 100 back, and they took 10 as the vig.
 

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If you bet in Mexico....everyone pays...winners or losers. They take a % of the winning bet.
 

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it all depends on perception

combination of both was my vote

faces or vases?

2Q==
 

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maybe if the books waited to charge the vig after the outcome of the match people would better understand who pays the vig ?
 

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for simplicity's sake let's say i'm bonus whoring and with bonuses i have 1000 at book a and 1000 at book b

book a i take toronto maple leafs -110 1000 to win 909
book b i take the other side washington capitals +103 940 to win 968

i get essentially the same $1909 no matter who wins, so how can you say i only paid juice on one side? i paid $31 in vig no matter who wins so it is split.
 
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for simplicity's sake let's say i'm bonus whoring and with bonuses i have 1000 at book a and 1000 at book b

book a i take toronto maple leafs -110 1000 to win 909
book b i take the other side washington capitals +103 940 to win 968

i get essentially the same $1909 no matter who wins, so how can you say i only paid juice on one side? i paid $31 in vig no matter who wins so it is split.

how is this for simplicity's sake? you're right, it doesn't matter who wins, but that's where your juice is coming from (the winning side).


If I start with $100 and bet 5% of my roll, I am betting $5.

If I lose, I lose $5 no matter where I bet.

If I win, I win the amount where I found the best vig.
 

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rudy i certainly see your logic there. but can't you see the other side? if two of my buddies call and each bet a different side $105 to win $100, i only make $5 from the one that loses. so i would argue that over the long run they are each paying $2.50 juice every time they call me.
 

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