What we got here...is failure to communicate.(Oh those heavy handed Dutch!)

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width=400 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=hd vAlign=bottom height=30>For Dutch, anger battles with tolerance


</TD></TR><TR><TD class=medT vAlign=top>By Craig S. Smith The New York Times

Thursday, November 11, 2004


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>AMSTERDAM Anger toward the Netherlands' Muslim community percolated among the crowd that gathered outside the funeral for the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was killed by an Islamic extremist a week ago.

The public debate over how conservative Islam fits into Europe's most tolerant, liberal society had already become a no-holds-barred affair before the killing of van Gogh, who had publicly and repeatedly used epithets against Muslims. But his killing has now polarized the country, giving the rest of Europe a disturbing glimpse of what may be in store if relations with the continent's growing immigrant communities are not managed more adeptly.

The anger is such that for the second time in two days an Islamic elementary school was attacked Tuesday, this time in Uden, part of what Dutch authorities fear are reprisals after van Gogh's killing, The Associated Press reported. The authorities said that Muslim sites had been the target of a half-dozen attacks in the past week, The AP reported.

In apparent retaliation, arsonists attempted to burn down Protestant churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort, the news service quoted the police as saying.

The attacks have scratched the patina of tolerance on which the Dutch have long prided themselves, particularly here in their principal city, where the scent of hashish trails in the air, prostitutes beckon from storefront brothels and Hell's Angels live side by side with Hare Krishnas. But many Dutch now say that for years that tradition of tolerance suppressed an open debate about the challenges of integrating conservative Muslims.

Jan Colijn, 46, a bookkeeper from the central Dutch town of Gorinchem who was at the funeral Tuesday night, complained that the Netherlands' generous social welfare system had allowed Muslim immigrants to isolate themselves. Because of that, "there is a kind of Muslim fascism emerging here," he said. "The government must find a way to break these communities open."

Another man, who declined to give his name, was more succinct: "Now, it's war."

For many years, such criticism of Islam and Islamic customs, even among Dutch extremists, was considered taboo, despite deep frustrations that had built up against conservative Islam in the country.

Many here say that began to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, when the Netherlands, like many countries, began to consider the dangers of political Islam seriously. The debate fueled an anti-immigration movement and helped propel the career of the populist politician Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered by an environmental activist shortly before national elections in 2002.

By all accounts here, Fortuyn's murder removed any remaining brakes on the debate surrounding immigrants.

"After Pim Fortuyn's murder, there were no limitations on what you could say," said Edwin Bakker, a terrorism expert at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations. "It has become a climate in which insulting people is the norm."

He and others said the public discourse, even among members of government, reached an unprecedented pitch and included language that went far beyond the limits set for public forums in the United States.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of Parliament and one of a handful of politicians threatened with death by Islamic extremists, publicly called the prophet Muhammad a "pervert" and a "tyrant." She made a film with van Gogh condemning sexual abuse among Muslim women, who were portrayed with Koranic verses written on their bare skin.

Van Gogh himself was one of the most outspoken critics of fundamentalist Muslims and favored an epithet for conservative Muslims that referred to bestiality with a goat. He used the term often in his public statements, including a column he wrote for a widely read free newspaper and during radio broadcasts and television appearances.

The cumulative effect made van Gogh, a distant relation of the painter Vincent van Gogh, a kind of cult clown on one side of the debate, and a reviled hatemonger on the other.

The debate became so caustic that the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD, issued a report in March warning that the unrestrained language could encourage radicalization of the country's Muslim youth and drive individuals into the arms of terrorist recruiters. The agency has warned repeatedly in recent years that such recruiters are active in the Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe.

While only about 20 percent of the Netherlands' estimated 900,000 Muslims practice their religion, according to one government study, officials say as many as 5 percent of Muslims in the country follow a conservative form of Islam. Most are from the Netherlands' Moroccan community, which has its roots in the Rif, an impoverished, mountainous Berber region in the north.

There are about 300,000 people of Moroccan descent in the Netherlands today, and the ratcheting up of the anti-immigration debate has alienated many of them from Dutch society and, many people argue, has also helped fragment the Muslim community.

Jean Tillie, a professor of political science at the University of Amsterdam, says that the debate has broken down a network that connected even the most extremist Muslim groups to the more moderate voices within the Muslim community. He cited an Amsterdam government advisory board that brought together all kinds of Moroccans and fostered communication and cohesion within the Muslim community.

"Those groups participating didn't agree with each other, but they met together with the collective mission of advising the city government," he said.

The board was abolished a year ago, he says, in the wake of the anti-immigration debate. He claims that funds for other ethnic organizations have shrunk and outreach policies have also been abandoned.



At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people here to be the epicenter of extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to control its radical youth.

"If we bring these people into the mosque, it is possible to change their thoughts, but few mosques dare to because if you do, you're branded," he said.

Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing so.



The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings.

Several legislators have called for the mosque to be shut down, but under the Dutch constitution it is difficult to do.

Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All of us want to begin a dialogue now, but the language of the political right is too extreme, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to cool down and be careful what we say."

The problem is how to bridge a gap that has yawned dangerously since van Gogh's murder.

The Amsterdam Council of Churches published paid notices in some Dutch newspapers pledging solidarity with the Muslim community. But the government's response has been to promise more money for fighting terrorism and stronger immigration laws.

"Islam is the most hated word in the country at this point," said the terrorism expert, Bakker.



Explosion in raid on house

The explosion of a hand grenade during a terrorism-related raid on a house in The Hague on Wednesday wounded three police officers, The Associated Press reported from The Hague.

The Hague's chief prosecutor, Han Moraal, said the raid was part of a "continuing investigation into terrorism" but would not say whether it was related to the killing of van Gogh.

Several city blocks were cordoned off in a mostly immigrant neighborhood near the Holland Spoor train station.
 

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You better check this out with Doc - I'm sure that Bush is somehow to blame for the Dutch going on an anti-Muslim crusade - it's so cowboy like, and so unlike the Dutch!
 

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Islam conquered 2/3rds of the known world by the sword before and they plan to do it again thru fear and bombings. Europe may be finished, Canada may fall in 10 years. Islam is currently at war with Russia, America and China and the liberals just ignore the facts. These people mean business.
 

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What a bunch racist,facsist intolerante,redneck,neaderthals how could they ever have this attitude with the "Religion of Peace and Tolerance"
 

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Patriot said:
What a bunch racist,facsist intolerante,redneck,neaderthals how could they ever have this attitude with the "Religion of Peace and Tolerance"
Any word from cup of Koffee on the war being wage by the French on the Ivory Coast? Did the French go it alone? Did the French rush to war? Did the UN security council vote on this actions?
 

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Cleverly worded, Game. "2/3rds of the known world" includes the MidEast, southern Europe, a bit of North Africa and bits of East Asia. The known world at the time did not include North America, for example.

At any rate, the anti-Muslim position is taking hold in many parts of Europe. The Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc. are dealing with pseudo-fascist reactions to Islamic fundamentalists. Unfortunately, the issue may turn into the same problem that faced these countries in the 30s with the Jews. The Netherlands have a political party dramatically on the rise who would limit all immigration to whites only, and would make moves to begin exiling non-white recent immigrants, especially Muslims. The logistics problems are obvious -- what do you do with all these people? Remember all those European Jews that we wouldn't take before WWII and we, in essence, sent them to their deaths? Are we prepared to let that happen again?
 

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X,

Yes, very clever and accurate.

The radical muslims are out of control everywhere. If you're asking who do I pick them or my family? I'll pick my family 100 out of a 100, I'm sick of there violence and attempts to take over by the sword.
 

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At any rate, the anti-Muslim position is taking hold in many parts of Europe. The Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc. are dealing with pseudo-fascist reactions to Islamic fundamentalists. Unfortunately, the issue may turn into the same problem that faced these countries in the 30s with the Jews.

Jesus...I think I'm going to draw a warm bath and slice my wrist....I can't belive what an apoligist you are for these people.

I told you before, the clash of civilizations is inevitible and its going to happen.

How you can compare whats going on now to the issue with Jews in the 1930's is incredible if not ludicrious.
You got to stay off the Al-Jazeers even I read and listen to the BBC and NY Times once in a while.
 

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Patriot - are you aware of how bigoted the average European is against the Jews? That's one reason why the Muslims have it easier in Europe.

Of course, that's changing as you can see.

If a Beslan or 9/11 happens in Western Europe, you will see a big time change of attitude in Europe - I think the Netherlands would be mild compared to what could happen.

I get the impression as I deal with the Europeans - from the imflection and tone of voice - that they don't particularly care for their Muslim immigrants.
 
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bblight:

When they filmed that Kerry spot, I forgot to congratulate you ...

You play the role of an ostrich very welll ....

Again, I am one of many in this country - and the world - who hates what Bush stands for ....
 

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Patriot - are you aware of how bigoted the average European is against the Jews? That's one reason why the Muslims have it easier in Europe
She is trying to compare the persacution of Jews in the 30's to whats happening to the muslims today over there.
Whats happening is a response to the fun fundys,not blatant racism toward Jews as in the 30's......puhhleeezzze.

By the way about how many minutes would Patricia Irleand last in Iran?
 

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Doc - I hate to ask - but what does Bush stand for - please ellucidate?
 

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In International circles, Bush stands for the fall from credibility of the American nation.

Re-electing him, told the world that the USA wants to throw itself off a cliff like a huge lemming.
 

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Patriot said:
Jesus...I think I'm going to draw a warm bath and slice my wrist....I can't belive what an apoligist you are for these people.

I told you before, the clash of civilizations is inevitible and its going to happen.

How you can compare whats going on now to the issue with Jews in the 1930's is incredible if not ludicrious.
You got to stay off the Al-Jazeers even I read and listen to the BBC and NY Times once in a while.

You're just plain wrong about my position. I'm not apologising for obvious criminals, simply pointing out that their activity is 'ruining it for the rest of them' so to speak. It's easy to go from anti-IslamiFundies to anti-Muslim to anti-Arab. We saw this in the 30s. You just watch. Parts of Europe are losing their minds right now, acting as though any and all brown-skinned people are potential terrorists.

Remember after Abu Ghraib and how quick all of you were to point out that this is not representative of the average American soldier? Do you think the other side buys that?

The Netherlands is definitely on the verge of organising a fascist response to an entire group of people. Do you think it is a good idea to have all Muslims run out of the country because of these actions? Would this be acceptable in the US, too? Are you a fan of McCarthy?

edited to add: let's say for a moment that the Netherlands elects this party who want to limit immigration to whites only. That means more than just Muslims getting the boot. Those Muslims that do get the boot, where do they go? Do they go to the MidEast and maybe some of them get involved in the fighting there, now that they're super-pissed? Do they come to the US or Canada and be super-pissed?
 

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X,

What do you think? Should we tolerate buildings falling on American citizens. There's quite a few middle east Muslims that are in America illegally and will be shown the door if another building falls. Tolerance is going to kill us.
 

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Obviously there is no simple answer. Of course nobody should have to tolerate violence, regardless of origin. It is true that all members of AQ are Muslim. However, it is not true that all Muslims are members of AQ. And this is the problem.

If we advocate giving all Muslims the boot and sending them back to the MidEast, we are only going to serve to increase anti-Western sentiment which will probably lead to a mass Islamic uprising. Then what?

I don't know what the answer is, but kicking out all Muslims seems too extreme and doomed to failure.
 

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Dear old Ron Reagan said it best - "trust, but verify"

It applies to the Muslims - They should be left in peace, but let's ensure that their intentions are peaceful. Such a policy is in everyones best interests.
 

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Sounds like you'd just submit instead of hurting a muslims feelings, sorry Americans will not go for that. I could give a rats azz about their feelings over more Americans burning to death. First off we could enforce our laws on the books and deport all mid east muslims that are in America illegally. That would be a very good start.
 

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Game: anybody in the US illegally (or anywhere) is and should be subject to deportation. But you have over 1.5 million legal Muslims in the US. You simply cannot round them all up and ship them out. There's nowhere for all of them to go at one time. Who in their right mind would welcome 1.5 million disenfranchised, super-pissed people? Even the likes of AQ would be nervous about having them return to the ME.

I'm not so much concerned about hurting a Muslim's feelings, as you put it, but that mass exile will fuel the uprising and raise the stakes in this already highly dangerous conflict.

That book that I recommended does a pretty reasonable job of painting AQ's intentions -- a mass Islamic uprising -- and its methods. It seems that mass xenophobia is precisely what AQ wants in order to spur on the uprising. To do what you suggest would bring this uprising on, and could actually make possible the return of the Caliphate. At the moment, given the ties the Arab countries have to the US and the West, and the secular position of most of them, this uprising is being held more or less in check. It's generally limited to extremists for now. But if the world goes ballistic on them, it may become quite popular, precisely as is happening in the reverse.
 

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I agree with xpandas not all muslims are al-queada statement. What isn't said is that most muslims tolerate and some support this factionin their midst. This is the thing that needs changing. Somehow pressure other than at gunpoint has to be brought to bear on this problem.
This is the whole problem with the bush doctrine. He wants to force muslims to westernize when this is the exact thing forcing more and more moderate muslims into the arms of the fundys. For one thing IF military force would change the thinking of muslims you don't go to Iraq to change minds you go to Mecca.
 

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