Wealth Inequality In America

[CHOPTALK]

You do realize that the average employee of a company such as Apple would have a college degree and would have probably been one of the tops in their hs class.

Quit acting as if all these people making 30-50 K per year are chumps who sit at home and twiddle their thumbs hoping to get something that they don't deserve!

What does that have to do with anything?
This is not a matter of how much school someone went to.
Its a matter of who can do the job.

I know plenty of college people who are idiots.

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are 2 examples of people who did not even finish college.
If we used your logic Bill Gates should be making less money then someone who has a 4 year degree.

There are many College QB's that played college football for 4 year just like Tom Brady. This does not mean they could be the starting QB of the Pats.

Its all about talent and supply and demand.

If there are only 100 people in the world that can do a certain job in high demand that person is going to get paid. Its that simple.
If there are 1,000,000,000 people that can do a certain job they wont get paid.

This is not a hard concept.
There is a very small group of people in this world who can be a CEO of fortune 100 company and do it well.

 

[CHOPTALK]

We could evenly divide every $1 to every American 18 years and older... and like I said before..... in 10 years which ones will be multi-millionaires, and which ones will have nothing at all to show for it. Nothing would change, there are those who dont care about the future or bettering themselves and who only live in the moment. Then on the other side of the spectrum, you have those who would better themselves smartly and use it wisely.

There is a reason the classes are seperated like they are... its how they choose to be. No ones fault but their own.

This is not 100% true. Not even close.
I understand what you are trying to say but its not nearly that cut and dry.

 

[NFLTrends]

There is a sign at every wildlife park across the world

"Dont Feed The Animals"

Reason being they frogot how to fend for themselves, and will consistantly look for handouts, instead of learning to get it on their own.

Same thing is happening with Welfare and Food Stamps.

Now its a generational way of life.

 

[PatsFan1283]

What does that have to do with anything?
This is not a matter of how much school someone went to.
Its a matter of who can do the job.

I know plenty of college people who are idiots.

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are 2 examples of people who did not even finish college.
If we used your logic Bill Gates should be making less money then someone who has a 4 year degree.

There are many College QB's that played college football for 4 year just like Tom Brady. This does not mean they could be the starting QB of the Pats.

Its all about talent and supply and demand.

If there are only 100 people in the world that can do a certain job in high demand that person is going to get paid. Its that simple.
If there are 1,000,000,000 people that can do a certain job they wont get paid.

This is not a hard concept.
There is a very small group of people in this world who can be a CEO of fortune 100 company and do it well.

You haven't said 1 thing in this thread I disagree with but you also didn't answer the question. The question isn't about entitlements or how to make the poor work or how to improve self-sufficiency. The question is, is the massive wealth disparity that we now see in the US a bad thing and what can be done to fix it if is?

 

[DNoonan]

Never made much sense to me how much ceo's earn. Just seems like bad economic business sense from the company point of view.

I agree that there are many overpaid CEOs out there, but I work in this business and you also need to look at it from the Board of Directors perspective (the folks that make the decisions)....if they lose a solid CEO it can set the company back significantly in many ways...with customers, with the street, with employees/other executives....so you have to pay competitively....the impact on the market cap (total stock value) of a company of losing (or sometimes getting) a CEO can dwarf the amount that is paid to the individual....the numbers are huge, yes, but so are the companies and the stakes....these are not easy decisions that are made and I can tell you that executive pay is a lot more performance-based now then it was 10 - 15 years ago. When I started in this business the consultant was often hired by the executives to review their own pay...huge conflict....now almost all Boards have their own independent consultant that reports to them. There is still progress to be made and certainly some bad apples out there, but IMO the system is not broken...look at the innovation we have seen vs. other economies...very few of the best will work for significantly less than their market value...

 

[DNoonan]

I have been a lot like you my whole life NFLTRENDS. I said the same things as you in this thread. That being said, I have done a lot of research and a lot of thinking on this topic and I urge you to do the same. I have always personally attacked entitlements and welfare, all that shit. However, I think that the top 1% is a little extreme. I work hard and will be a millionaire myself and trust me it kills me to pay the amount of taxes that I pay especially when you go to the gas station and see the abuse of EBT(For some reason that always gets my blood boiling). That being said, I think that it is unnecessary and a little inhumane that the CEO's are making more in an hour then the employees make in a month worth of work. Like the video said, are they really working 380x as hard as their employees? Would the money in the US be better spent by the employees. I mean at some point these top 1% can't possibly spend the money they make.

How hard one works is irrelevant...CEOs are paid for making difficult decisions, setting company strategy when the stakes are high, interfacing with customers/investors/Board and running a company....average tenure is not long....there are plenty of hard workers that suck.....executives are paid for adding value (while this may correlate with working hard, working hard does not guarantee success in all fields)

 

[CHOPTALK]

You haven't said 1 thing in this thread I disagree with but you also didn't answer the question. The question isn't about entitlements or how to make the poor work or how to improve self-sufficiency. The question is, is the massive wealth disparity that we now see in the US a bad thing and what can be done to fix it if is?

We are in the beginning stages of technology revolution where the blue coller jobs are getting more and more scarce.
None of my solutions are overnight fixes.

The technology revolution got here before the educational revolution did and this is the problem we are facing right now.

Its not so much that the rich are getting richer.
Its more so that the middle class is getting poorer.

Back in the day your granddad could make a nice living with hard work with little to no education.
Those days are mostly gone at least on a the large scale that we need for a strong middle class.

These days it takes smarts to have that middle class job that once upon a time all it took was hard work and showing up on time.

Yesterdays middle class job was working in a factory making things with your hands. A lot of those jobs are now done with robotics, exported to china, or illegal citizens living in America.

I dont think our problem right now is the rich getting richer.
The problem is the middle class is getting poorer.

And this is due to what I said earlier. The technology age has surpassed our education level.

We need to completely revamp all educational institutions to keep up with todays needs.

This is going to take a generation or two to accomplish.

Looking into the crystal ball I see all kinds of opportunities for the future middle class of America but for now this generation for a lot of people caught them by surprise.
Hard physical work is no longer the premium that it once was.

Sure those jobs still exist but I am speaking on a national scale.

Even now unemployment is still under 10% but there use to be a higher need for jobs with no education then there are now.

Because that demand is not there the jobs shrink and the pay decreases.

If we had a strong middle class people would not be paying near as much attention to the people who are rich or the people on welfare.

Im times like these I think we need to be extra sensitive to the have nots then ever before.

Some of the things I believe now I was totally against just a few short years ago.
But you have to look at the situation.

You have to learn that not everyone on welfare are bums.
You also have to realize that the rich are not evil.

I would absolutely spend most stimulus money on education.
Its not a quick fix but its the only answer.

Now if anyone is still reading this I know what you are thinking.

You are thinking that just because someone gets educated this is not necessarily going to solve all the worlds problems.
This is true. But there is never been a time in world history where all problems have been solved.

Im not saying every single human being in the world has to have a 140 IQ with a 4 year degree.

All im saying is there are a lot of would be capable people that are not maxing there potential because of there education.

There are some out there with one of those ever shrinking 60k middle class jobs that could have been so much more valuable with a little education. Not that this person is doing bad in life but they could have done better.

If this person would have gotten the proper education and maxed himself out he could have moved up to the upper middle class and let someone on the welfare rolls have his 60K a year blue coller job.

This is the situation we are in right now.

I talk to people every day that would love to hire people but the type of person they are looking for does not exist or the demand is not there for the potential product that they could create because the middle class is not strong.

Education would solve both of those problems.

The bottom line in all this is people are going to have to get smarter.
We live in a smarter world, and that requires smarter people.

If the would be smart people would do there job and max themselves out this would allow the lesser talented people to move up to the current job they have now.
All of a sudden the middle class gets strong, the welfare rolls get lower. And everyone stops paying attention to the rich people being so much better off then they are.

 

[DNoonan]

I don't have a problem with a CEO getting paid. If you are the top of the top, you should be paid as so. But should you really be paid 400 million when someone that works for you makes 35,000?

Depends on size of the company and how well shareholders did during your tenure.

 

[Kruser6]

Trust me, I hear what you all are saying. I understand that CEO's make difficult decisions and I know they work hard. All I am asking is, does the spread in income really make sense. Is it worth the affect it has on our economy? I understand they pay taxes, but understand that their money comes from rest of us. It's a big circle.

I have always been where you guys are at. "Fuck you, they worked hard for it, how dare we even think of taking that away"

I am not saying we just open their bank accounts, but just think how many lives they could change with taking less money? Personally if I was in that position I wouldn't ever require that much money and would much rather pass it on to hard working individuals. I constantly am giving money to others, it makes me feel good. I think there is an amount of money that is enough, these people just have way too much. I'm not talking about guys with 1 mil, or 10 mil. I am talking about the top 1%. The fact that the 1% has more money then the bottom 60% combined is astonishing.

 

[DNoonan]

you have to put it in perspective of how big these companies are....how much would you pay someone to run a company worth billions of dollars (keep in mind every billion is 1,000 millions)?

 

[Kruser6]

you have to put it in perspective of how big these companies are....how much would you pay someone to run a company worth billions of dollars (keep in mind every billion is 1,000 millions)?

I understand what you are saying. I guess until recently where I have really looked into how much they really own it never bothered me. Watching that video is a real eye opener.

 

[DNoonan]

executive pay is highly correlated with company size...cash pay moves most closely with revenue size and equity pay with company valur or market cap. equity is by far the biggest component of ceo pay....what the media oftent doesnt report is that the "value" that gets reported for stock options is an accounting value which is theoretical....if the stock price doesnt go up, they actually don't make any money on the options...restricted stock is another matter, but that is not the lion share of the "big numbers" that are reported

 

[DNoonan]

I understand what you are saying. I guess until recently where I have really looked into how much they really own it never bothered me. Watching that video is a real eye opener.

I'll be honest in that 1) i didnt watch the video and 2) i am desensitized and perhaps biased given that I have been an executive pay consultant for ~15 years now

As a result, I see the media bias in trying to make a story without telling both sides (or explaining what the numbers really represent)

If you look across a broad set of companies, the actual numbers in terms of "realized pay" (i.e., what they actually earn after the awards vest, etc.) is highly correlated with how shareholders of the company do....if you perform, you get paid, if not, you earn less and/or are fired. Some get a nice hit on the way out, but that is what it takes to get a CEO in the door from their prior gig (some security in the event it doesnt work out).

 

[PatsFan1283]

We are in the beginning stages of technology revolution where the blue coller jobs are getting more and more scarce.
None of my solutions are overnight fixes.

The technology revolution got here before the educational revolution did and this is the problem we are facing right now.

Its not so much that the rich are getting richer.
Its more so that the middle class is getting poorer.

Back in the day your granddad could make a nice living with hard work with little to no education.
Those days are mostly gone at least on a the large scale that we need for a strong middle class.

These days it takes smarts to have that middle class job that once upon a time all it took was hard work and showing up on time.

Yesterdays middle class job was working in a factory making things with your hands. A lot of those jobs are now done with robotics, exported to china, or illegal citizens living in America.

I dont think our problem right now is the rich getting richer.
The problem is the middle class is getting poorer.

And this is due to what I said earlier. The technology age has surpassed our education level.

We need to completely revamp all educational institutions to keep up with todays needs.

This is going to take a generation or two to accomplish.

Looking into the crystal ball I see all kinds of opportunities for the future middle class of America but for now this generation for a lot of people caught them by surprise.
Hard physical work is no longer the premium that it once was.

Sure those jobs still exist but I am speaking on a national scale.

Even now unemployment is still under 10% but there use to be a higher need for jobs with no education then there are now.

Because that demand is not there the jobs shrink and the pay decreases.

If we had a strong middle class people would not be paying near as much attention to the people who are rich or the people on welfare.

Im times like these I think we need to be extra sensitive to the have nots then ever before.

Some of the things I believe now I was totally against just a few short years ago.
But you have to look at the situation.

You have to learn that not everyone on welfare are bums.
You also have to realize that the rich are not evil.

I would absolutely spend most stimulus money on education.
Its not a quick fix but its the only answer.

Now if anyone is still reading this I know what you are thinking.

You are thinking that just because someone gets educated this is not necessarily going to solve all the worlds problems.
This is true. But there is never been a time in world history where all problems have been solved.

Im not saying every single human being in the world has to have a 140 IQ with a 4 year degree.

All im saying is there are a lot of would be capable people that are not maxing there potential because of there education.

There are some out there with one of those ever shrinking 60k middle class jobs that could have been so much more valuable with a little education. Not that this person is doing bad in life but they could have done better.

If this person would have gotten the proper education and maxed himself out he could have moved up to the upper middle class and let someone on the welfare rolls have his 60K a year blue coller job.

This is the situation we are in right now.

I talk to people every day that would love to hire people but the type of person they are looking for does not exist or the demand is not there for the potential product that they could create because the middle class is not strong.

Education would solve both of those problems.

The bottom line in all this is people are going to have to get smarter.
We live in a smarter world, and that requires smarter people.

If the would be smart people would do there job and max themselves out this would allow the lesser talented people to move up to the current job they have now.
All of a sudden the middle class gets strong, the welfare rolls get lower. And everyone stops paying attention to the rich people being so much better off then they are.

WOW...Vitt said you weren't opinionated!

On the monetary policy side of things though with the cheapening of our money and making people eat inflation in necessities it has made it tougher for people to build their own wealth. However it hasn't been tough to sustain it, this creates the growing gap as well away from the skillset aspect.

I'm not sure what to do about it either but I do agree pretty much anyone with a high level/skill certification can still work easily sans a few outliers.

 

[wabashwonders]

Im not... Im just justifying that the CEO could more then likely do the job that the worker does... but the worker couldnt do the job the CEO does.

So... lets put this into a sports metphor.

Could Mike Jones a huge Patriots fan who is 350lbs who never went to high school and has never even done anything athletic in his life, who spends $300 on a seat to watch the Patriots play, , become the starting QB for the Patriots and make $70 million a year?

Why not?

you apparently have never seen an episode of "Undercover Boss". Most of those CEOs can not do the jobs or have a lot of trouble doing the jobs of their workers when they go out to the workplace.

 

[snoop]

So what is Llyod Blankfein's value? Jamie Dimon's? Or any of the other sociopaths who gutted this nation back in 2008? What Jailtime? Let's make that stack of dollars triple thick baby!

There is an exception rule for the bankers.
Head I Win, Tail You Lose.
Privatizing Profits, Socializing Losses.

It's ironic that progressive liberals are screaming tax the rich to death everyday yet they would be the first to ask the government to bail out the rich when needed.

 

[moocow]

Yes now we are getting somewhere....croney capitalism.....

Bingo

 

[buddyboy]

Do some research before you start popping off buddy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/tim-cook-salary_n_1676660.html

It's official: Apple CEO Tim Cook was last year's highest paid CEO in Silicon Valley. By a lot.
According to an annual analysis of top executive compensation in the Valley done by the San Jose Mercury News, the head of the Cupertino, Calif.-based computer maker was paid a whopping $378 million in the 2011 fiscal year, the vast majority of it in Apple stock. Cook, previously Apple's chief operating officier, was named chief executive in August 2011, right as Steve Jobs became too sick with pancreatic cancer to continue heading the company he founded in 1976.

like i said there is not the time or the space here to properly educate someone on how executive pay works, if you want to use the huffington post as your source then that just shows your level of understanding. that is not an insult, but just a statement of fact.

anyway, a few disclaimers. I do not own apple stock, but i do keep an eye on it. usually when you see headlines about someone making 100 million or more in a year it is usually in the form of the executive taking shares of a company instead of cash.

If memory serves me correctly cook makes about a million (maybe 1.5 millon) per year in pay, and probably another million or 2 million in incentives and perks.

the year he took over as ceo he was 'given' a million in shares, a lot of those shares he can't touch until a future date, they usually space them out 5 to 10 years down the road. the reason they (the board) does this is to 'buy' his loyalty if the ceo screws up he really only screws himself, and if he succeeds then he basically shares the wealth as a major shareholder.

anyway, when he was granted those million shares, the price per share was probably 300 to 400 per share. even though he cannot liquidate the shares when given to him, he claimed them as income making his income for that year whatever was quoted in that huffington post article.

so Cook is really only making 4 million per year in take home pay.

compare that to exxon's ceo, rex tillerson, xom and appl are comparable in size and value. but Rex makes about 10 million per year and only owns about $150 million in xom stock.

cook, takes less pay but is taking on a bigger risk hoping his million shares go up in value
rex, takes more pay and takes a lesser risk owning less stock.

in gambling terms

cook has a 6 teamer going
rex has a 2 teamer

 

[TheFunkMonkey]

Most people wouldn't even want to be a CEO. Especially with today's technology, where there is almost no separation between the office & home. How much personal time do you really think CEOs have?

How much privacy do you think CEOs have? You think CEOs are gambling 365 days a year, hanging out in shithole casinos? Like most of the people on this forum?

Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave

 

[TheFunkMonkey]

More importantly, how many people are willing to sacrifice the 20-30 years that is often required to become a CEO?

Survey 500 kids, just graduating from high school --- ask them if they're willing to sacrifice family, friends, social life. Ask them if they're willing to maintain a spotless criminal record (including drugs). Ask them if they're willing to work 50-60 hours/week, when all their peers & colleagues are working 40 hours. Ask them if they're willing to work until 9pm on Friday, when the rest of the office went home @ 4pm.

All in the hopes that *maybe* they'll eventually rise to CEO --- but more than likely, they'll max out as a mid-level manager.

How many say no thanks? Probably 499? And the one person who truly wants that life, that's the type of person who becomes a CEO.