US to lose in Iraq??

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US to lose in Iraq??

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"yeh liblander, me to. but sip on your morning coffee and face reality. You libs think that if you had all you're policies enacted it would be heaven here on earth. Sorry, just wasn't created that way."

Why do you insist that I'm a liberal?
You appear to be very misinformed.

Just like #1's flawed rhetoric about, "you're either with us or against us", you are equally incorrect. I happen to agree with the liberals on this particular issue, however I am not a liberal.

Until you can grasp that quite simple concept please refrain from addressing me. You're just wasting bandwidth.
 

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#1 went wrong when he said we would win the war on terrorism. It's like the war on illegal drugs. It's going to be an ongoing battle that will never be completely won.

It's a pleasant vision for the future but not realistic.

Sorry about wasting your bandwidth.
 
Joint,
I think the comparision you make is an excellent one. The "war on drugs" is a failure because it is NEARLY impossible to identify the enemeny, just as is the "war on terror".
 
Lets ignore OBL, Saddam and give NK NUKES, cash and fuel and raise taxes. Great idea Clintoon.

"Walter Williams is my hero" outandup 2002
 

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As far as your conclusions as to economic status, I question how you got there, but past that my question is, is your main point here that 'smarter' people are against the war? In the 76% of those in favor in the U.S., according to the Gallup poll, is that figure comprised only of the unwashed and ignorant, or just people of all kinds who believe in the reasons for this war?

but to attack the intelligence of people --- is nothing more than an attempt to discredit the view by discrediting the people holding that view.


jazz i looked back through some books for the reference to average IQ's of PhD's in the US being 115 but could not find it. i now have no doubt it is NOT true.

my views are not now nor ever have been remotely "leftish". i view myself as a libertarian with an economic view to the extreme right.

re my assumption ( based on a small sample ) that those with higher IQ / socioeconomic status oppose the war i base the conclusion on the fact that 2 US bulletin boards both show majorities against.

i also assume those having computers at home ( or access at work ) and the free time to contribute, do come from the upper percentiles of both groups. QED.

The coalition consists of England, US, Isreal & Australia.

Lander -- Israel is certainly not part of the coalition. if they were there is some chance other arab countries would attack them and lead to WWIII.
 

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Friday, March 28, 2003

Bush meets Blair as doubts emerge over strategy
Talks will cover tactics, the rebuilding of post-war Iraq and US-European relations

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, REUTERS and ASSOCIATED PRESS in Washington and PAUL EEDLE in Baghdad

US President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair last night scrutinised war plans amid reports that the American-led military strategy has gone awry. Despite the bombing of Baghdad - which continued yesterday - the projected swift collapse of Iraq's military defences has not occurred, and US military officials now say the war could last months.

The Washington Post, citing US defence officials, reported that victory "will require considerably more combat power than is now [in Iraq] and in Kuwait".

A surprisingly tenacious enemy, dangerously stretched supply lines, and bad weather has led some top generals to see more and more US troops being sucked into the war, the newspaper said.
"Tell me how this ends," one senior US officer asked the paper.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell said the war "may take a little bit longer" and Mr Bush on Wednesday said "the war is far from over".
Early this morning, Mr Bush sought to brush aside a question on whether the war would last months or weeks. "However long it takes to win," he said. "It's not a matter of timetable, it's a matter of victory."

The US has a relatively small force stretched over 450km or more, and airborne troops are now needed to secure supply lines against ambush.
The US 3rd Infantry Division, at the forefront of the march to Baghdad, was "alarmingly low" on water and food, the Post said.

The recent decision to root out resistance in southern Iraqi cities bypassed by armoured columns would require more troops, which would in turn strain the supply chain even more.
 

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Friday, March 28, 2003 --- THE WAR ON IRAQ

The lessons learned by Saddam 12 years ago.

Since the first Gulf conflict, the Iraqi leader has improvised and taken advantage of fighting a battle at home

AGENCIES

The war is just a week old, but it is clear that Saddam Hussein has learned a lot since his forces were routed in the first Gulf conflict. Like other leaders facing larger, technologically superior forces, he has found ways to improvise and to take advantage of the fact that the fighting is taking place on his home ground. He is waging a campaign of harassment and delay. It is not likely to change the outcome of the war, but it will prolong the fighting, make it more costly for his adversaries and profoundly affect the way it is seen in other Arab countries and around the world.

Already, the Iraqis have forced coalition forces to delay their main-force attack on Baghdad until Basra, which they had hoped to bypass, can be subdued and until the road north can be made considerably more secure.

"We underestimated the capacity of his paramilitary forces," said a senior uniformed officer at the Pentagon. "They have turned up where we did not expect them to, and they have fought with more resourcefulness than we expected them to demonstrate."

Another Pentagon official conceded: "It's clear that Saddam went to school on Desert Storm. It is clear Saddam went to school on Kosovo. He has learned how America attacks."

The North Vietnamese, the Palestine Liberation Organisation, the Irish Republican Army (IRA) in Northern Ireland and the Serbs in Kosovo have all shown how an outmanned, outgunned force can fight back.

Mr Hussein has obviously concluded that he cannot win a land battle against an adversary who controls the air, so this time his tanks are not arrayed in the desert, waiting to be plastered by coalition missiles, although he appears to be willing to use armoured divisions south of Baghdad.

Nor can he be confident a centralised command will work. It, too, would be vulnerable to air attack.

So the Iraqi leader is leading a kind of guerilla defence, conducted by the fedayeen, who number perhaps 60,000 fighters, plus hard-core members of Mr Hussein's Ba'ath Party and other irregular forces. US intelligence officials say that command has been devolved to provincial level.

The desert does not afford the kind of cover that the jungles, caves and mountains of Vietnam did - although periodic sandstorms can enable the Iraqis to mount ambushes.

But the streets and alleys of Iraqi cities are ideal places for urban guerillas who can blend into the crowds to operate, just like those of Belfast and Tel Aviv. "Urban warfare usually benefits the defender," said Clifford Beal, the editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, a leading publication on military matters. Not only that, urban warfare "will negate the technological advantage of the coalition".

He added: "The Iraqis will be jumping in and out of alleyways. It tends to become a low-tech, house-to-house situation and that kind of combat can become very costly for combatants and others."

A war depending on low technology and high numbers of combatants and casualties is precisely the opposite of what the modern American army is trained to do. And even the British army, with three decades of experience fighting the IRA, would not be familiar either with the Iraqi terrain in cities such as Basra or Baghdad or with the much greater firepower that Iraqi troops could use in urban areas.

Who is a fedayeen fighter and who is a civilian? Marines tell stories of Iraqis changing in and out of uniform. A civilian bus turns out to be a troop transport. Guerillas cluster near schools and hospitals. In several cases, troops carrying white flags have opened fire.

Iraqis do not play by the rules of West Point and Sandhurst.

If the frustrated coalition forces call in urban artillery and air strikes, civilian casualties are almost inevitable. If they do not, stability is difficult to establish.

British armoured units are confronted with that conundrum near Basra at the moment. A decision has apparently been made to fight for the city, but the tactics and the timing are not yet clear. In any event, the British and the American marines fighting with them are surely going to become involved in some kind of street-by-street, if not house-by-house, urban warfare.

"They want to draw us in, bleed us, wear us down," said a veteran of Democratic administrations.

US officials had thought the Shi'ite Muslims of southern Iraq would prove reluctant to shelter the fedayeen. So far, that judgment has been proved incorrect.
 

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"As the terrible pressures mount, so does the harsh reality of war take over from the rhetoric that has driven months of diplomacy. In just a week, the coalition claims of "shock and awe'' tactics and grand pledges to "liberate the Iraqi people from tyranny'' have ebbed. In their place come complaints that Saddam Hussein's legions are not, of all things, fighting a fair fight.

When Mr Blair and Mr Bush meet this morning (Hong Kong time), they must begin to reckon with the consequences of a strategy that has left them isolated internationally and in the not too distant future, perhaps, from their own publics. Both men implicitly promised their nations that the conflict would be quick and relatively clean, gambling their political careers as well as the lives of their troops on the outcome. One way out would be to resume engagement with the international community, by seeking a brokered arrangement with Baghdad. It might not look like the victory they seek, but it would be preferable to the continuation of an unworkable and unwinnable war.
 

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Entropy,

Nice posts. I posted an earlier post with no reply. In it, I suggest that there is no rush to invade Baghdad. Take care of the other towns and secure and protect the oil fields. In the mean time, surround and cut off baghdad from the outside world, continue the bombing campaign, and draw the enemy out or wear them out. Give civilians an escape route, but do a border check. Any civilians with guns, capture them and treat them as pows. Baghdad is the heart of Iraq. Pinch the arteries into and out of Bahgdad and we can cause it to have a heartattack and win this wore. If the civilians want to stay after we have given them a 2nd chance to leave, then it's there fault if they become collateral damage.
 

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US will win the war, defined as occupying Iraq or killing Saddam.
But US lost diplomatically and will lose in the world politics.
The world will perceive US as a postential security threat due to Bush's preemptive strike theory and many countries will be at least less co-orporative with US.

I am really suprised to see some Americans says
"I hate seeing Americans die in this war. I would rather 10 million Iraqis die than 1 US solder or civilian."
Gush, aren't Iraqi people human just as Americans are?
 

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Clinton tried to kill Osama and all the republicans were screaming wag the dog. Now they all want to blame him because he didnt try harder.
 
Why try to kill him 1 in a zillion chance? The Sudanese offered OBL on a silver fukin platter 3 times and Clintooon hid under the desk.

lib, OBL existed when Carter was in office I don't blame him. OBL was behind several terrorist attacks during clintoons term and was offered on a silver platter and he did nothing, so yes he should shoulder some blame for 9/11.
 

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Gargoyle i don't have any idea re tactics, just the suspicion that based on the war so far it will be incredibly difficult to take baghdad without significant civilian or allied casualties. either of them would be very very bad news for the coalition.
 
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