U.S. rejects ANTIGUA position on gaming issue

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You have touched on a hard part of the deal. I talked with someone who said a real issue down the line could be the amount of harm done. He said think about this, the US at some point could go before the WTO council and ask what harm has been done. They could point out all the facts and figures and say if we were really restricting free trade here, how come there is this $12-15 billion industry of which our citizens drive about half. With this being the case, can a country really argue it has been harmed? The only actions taken have been against US companies and US citizens.

While we all could have a good laugh at such arguments knowing they have the intent to harm, it still could be a real road block. Antigua could get a pittance of a judgement because after all their businesses are still there and still getting money. To have someone claim they would have done twice the business or more without the restrictions is hard to back.
 

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The big harm will be if the govt can force Interner Service Providers to BLOCK ALL gambling sites. LT:icon_conf :finger:
 

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Whoson1st said:
How long they can drag this procedure out--I have no idea. But there must be compliance with the WTO or why even be a member of such organization.

The WTO is an organization the US and Europe use to get the rest of the world in line with their policies.

If the US does not comply, then the WTO can authorize Antigua and Barbuda to take punitive (trade) measures against the US. I don't think anyone can figure out what these punitive measures could possibly be.

The main impact of non-compliance will be that the third world will see that the US does not play by the rules and act accordingly in future trade talks. In many ways the US talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
 

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Coach LT said:
The big harm will be if the govt can force Interner Service Providers to BLOCK ALL gambling sites.

Not really, there are workarounds.
 

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WildBill said:
You have touched on a hard part of the deal. I talked with someone who said a real issue down the line could be the amount of harm done. He said think about this, the US at some point could go before the WTO council and ask what harm has been done. They could point out all the facts and figures and say if we were really restricting free trade here, how come there is this $12-15 billion industry of which our citizens drive about half. With this being the case, can a country really argue it has been harmed? The only actions taken have been against US companies and US citizens.

While we all could have a good laugh at such arguments knowing they have the intent to harm, it still could be a real road block. Antigua could get a pittance of a judgement because after all their businesses are still there and still getting money. To have someone claim they would have done twice the business or more without the restrictions is hard to back.
Hold the phone here just a second about how much "harm" has been done. The average person in the US wants to be a law abiding citizen. How much business does YouBet and all the other US internet horse wagering companies take in yearly from U S citizens alone? Now, not even counting those two facts...which are ENORMOUS in my estimation....what about this. No internet horse wagering company in the US even offer head to head horse wagering?
I don't think the figure would be a "pittance". But again that is a matter of defination and is compared to the big picture.
I would hope other WTO countries like England who allows internet wagering could ALSO claim harm here at some point . Antigua needs to WIN--so all of us "little players " may someday see legal wagering here .
 

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Whoson1st said:
Hold the phone here just a second about how much "harm" has been done. The average person in the US wants to be a law abiding citizen. How much business does YouBet and all the other US internet horse wagering companies take in yearly from U S citizens alone? Now, not even counting those two facts...which are ENORMOUS in my estimation....what about this. No internet horse wagering company in the US even offer head to head horse wagering?
I don't think the figure would be a "pittance". But again that is a matter of defination and is compared to the big picture.
I would hope other WTO countries like England who allows internet wagering could ALSO claim harm here at some point . Antigua needs to WIN--so all of us "little players " may someday see legal wagering here .


Thanks for your opinion.

Interesting.
 

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Whoson1st said:
Hold the phone here just a second about how much "harm" has been done. The average person in the US wants to be a law abiding citizen. How much business does YouBet and all the other US internet horse wagering companies take in yearly from U S citizens alone? Now, not even counting those two facts...which are ENORMOUS in my estimation....what about this. No internet horse wagering company in the US even offer head to head horse wagering?
I don't think the figure would be a "pittance". But again that is a matter of defination and is compared to the big picture.
I would hope other WTO countries like England who allows internet wagering could ALSO claim harm here at some point . Antigua needs to WIN--so all of us "little players " may someday see legal wagering here .

It doesn't matter what you or I or other gamblers determine it to be worth. Only the WTO matters and they base things on true harm done. Antiguan businesses are not being harmed much and the US could argue that. I have no idea what the WTO would respond to such a charge, but I have to think there probably is a point to be made there. It doesn't really matter, the US is taking a tact of saying there is no violation so the amount of money they get reparations for will be done on basic math that needs to be proven without much doubt. I think they would be lucky to $6 million, or $100 per citizen. This case has always been about the principle and the hopes of shaming the US into allowing this form of gaming, but its obviously not going to work that way whether we like it or not. The DOJ has been very stealthy and strategic in its application of the law here. They don't prosecute bettors and they don't prosecute betting sites. They just have attacked conduits between the two and the WTO doesn't get much say in that.
 

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WildBill said:
It doesn't matter what you or I or other gamblers determine it to be worth. Only the WTO matters and they base things on true harm done. Antiguan businesses are not being harmed much and the US could argue that. I have no idea what the WTO would respond to such a charge, but I have to think there probably is a point to be made there. It doesn't really matter, the US is taking a tact of saying there is no violation so the amount of money they get reparations for will be done on basic math that needs to be proven without much doubt. I think they would be lucky to $6 million, or $100 per citizen. This case has always been about the principle and the hopes of shaming the US into allowing this form of gaming, but its obviously not going to work that way whether we like it or not. The DOJ has been very stealthy and strategic in its application of the law here. They don't prosecute bettors and they don't prosecute betting sites. They just have attacked conduits between the two and the WTO doesn't get much say in that.
Very well stated and I see what you are saying here. The logical outcome (from the US point of view is that nothing at all happen as far as the WTO is concerned) As I see it....if the US government gives way to paying 6 dollars or 6 million dollars or any other dollar figure...they are admitting they are WRONG. That in itself is like moving mountains. I find this fascinating. Good feedback!
 

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Fishhead said:
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>US rejects Antigua position on gaming issue


</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>Tuesday April 25 2006

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left height=5></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>
by Patricia Campbell---Antigua Sun


The United States is now arguing that it is in compliance with the WTO ruling that it should adjust its discriminatory trade regulations which restrict the access by Antigua-based gaming companies to the US market.
The US is now claiming that Antigua & Barbuda has misunderstood the WTO ruling. This is coming only a year after the WTO’s Dispute Settlement Body (DSB) ground-breaking decision in Antigua & Barbuda’s favour.
The US raised the hackles of the government of Antigua & Barbuda and its supporters in Caricom earlier this month, when America failed to amend legislation ahead of the 3 April compliance deadline set by the DSB last year.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
It did little to soothe relations with Antigua & Barbuda at last week’s meeting of the DSB when the US Ambassador to the WTO, Peter Allgeier, stated “compliance with the recommendations and rulings of the DSB in this dispute relates exclusively to the sole point of whether the United States is now able to show that relevant US laws do not discriminate against foreign suppliers of remote gambling on horse racing. US laws do not discriminate, and we can show this.”
Allegeir stated categorically “the United States is in compliance with the recommendations and rulings of the DSB in this dispute.”
He went on to state the US government is aware, based on public statements, that Antigua & Barbuda’s understanding of the findings of the DSB in the dispute differs from America’s.
“We believe that understanding is incorrect, and that Antigua’s misreading of the results of this dispute has fostered misperceptions concerning their implications.”
He reiterated the US’ position that since the restrictive legislation deals with “an issue of public morals and public order” it falls under an exception under the General Agreement in Trade and Services (GATS).
He further contended that the only outstanding issue recognised by the DSB relates to horse racing, quoting a statement from the WTO’s Appellate Body that “the only inconsistency… stems from the fact that the United States did not demonstrate that the prohibition embodied in the measures at issue applies to both foreign and domestic suppliers of remote gambling services, notwithstanding the [Interstate Horseracing Act]....” and a ruling from the DSB that the US had not “shown, in the light of the Interstate Horseracing Act” the non-discriminatory application of the relevant measures.
“Notwithstanding any assertions to the contrary, this question concerning horse racing is the only issue,” Allgeier said.
He concluded his statement on the dispute with Antigua & Barbuda by stating that US criminal statutes prohibit the interstate transmission of bets or wagers, including wagers on horse races and that the US Department of Justice is currently undertaking a civil investigation relating to a potential violation of law regarding this activity.
“We hope that this explanation puts to rest any lingering misperceptions of the rulings and recommendations that the DSB in fact adopted in this dispute,” he said.
In response, Antigua & Barbuda’s Ambassador to the WTO Dr. John Ashe took issue with the US’ suggestion that its compliance “is in fact no different to the position which was raised during the course of the proceedings and found unpersuasive by both the panel and the Appellate Body.”
The next step in the dispute process will be for Antigua & Barbuda to invoke an Article 21.5 compliance panel.
This three member WTO panel will conduct an evaluation of the relevant US legislation and examine the extent to which they have been brought into compliance.
This panel is usually called on to examine legislative changes for compliance. In this case, the US has not made recommended changes, but has essentially claimed that existing laws already comply with WTO standards and the ruling of the DSB.




First of all this is a great thread. There is a world of insightful comments in here and invite all to reread them.


Now didn't I just post the US tresuary took them thru a training class on regulations with a certificate and everything?


Is there hyprocisy or a secret agenda by both parties in this case? Typical squeeze play move. Is the US trying to muscle Costa Rica out? Regulation is a game you play and I smell a rat.
 

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Sugarbear said:
Is there hyprocisy or a secret agenda by both parties in this case? Typical squeeze play move. Is the US trying to muscle Costa Rica out? Regulation is a game you play and I smell a rat.

Interestng idea, but maybe an overly sophisticated interpretation of seemingly random government actions where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Besides, FWIW, BOS has an Antigua gaming licence.
 

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Woody0 said:
Interestng idea, but maybe an overly sophisticated interpretation of seemingly random government actions where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Besides, FWIW, BOS has an Antigua gaming licence.


Exactly Woody. Random or not they do have an effect and in the picture I can see whats going on. By design or not this is a typical squeeze play move and the therory I will advance shortly will attempt to prove whats
going on in the big picture. On purpose or not the effect is the same.
 

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