THIS JUST IN: Indiana Pacers part ways with head coach Frank Vogel after deciding not to renew his contract.

[Greenbacks]

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Indiana Pacers have parted ways with coach Frank Vogel, team president Larry Bird announced Thursday.
"Decided it's time for a new voice around here," Bird said. "Sometimes my job really sucks. I had time to think about it and watch the team throughout the year. I had higher expectations than most people on how our team should play. I came to a conclusion it's time for these guys to hear a new voice. Made a decision not to renew [Vogel's contract]."

In six seasons as Pacers coach, Vogel had a 250-181 regular-season record and 31-30 playoff record, including losing in Game 7 to Toronto this season. His job status was questioned earlier this week when Bird told the Indianapolis Star that he didn't want to "leave Frank hanging -- there's other jobs out there he could get."

Vogel, who worked his way up the ranks from being a video coordinator with the Boston Celtics, took over as interim coach of the Pacers in January 2011 when Jim O'Brien was fired.

Vogel took over a fragile team that was mentally beat up by O'Brien and led them to the playoffs, where they played a competitive first-round series against the top-seeded Chicago Bulls. It was in that series that Vogel instilled confidence in then-rookie Paul George by having him defend Bulls point guard and league MVP that year Derrick Rose.

Vogel emphasized a "smashmouth" style of basketball where defense was the focal point with center Roy Hibbert anchoring the middle. The Pacers won back-to-back Central Division titles, reached the Eastern Conference Finals in consecutive seasons and had a stretch where they went to the playoffs for four straight seasons after they had missed reaching the postseason in the four seasons prior to Vogel becoming coach.

Things started to change for Vogel and the Pacers when George missed all but six games after he broke his leg while training with Team USA in the summer of 2014. Indiana missed the playoffs for the first time under Vogel in 2015.

The Pacers transformed their style of play last season after they traded Hibbert to the Los Angeles Lakers and power forward David West, the backbone of the team, opted out of the final year of his contract to pursue a title with the San Antonio Spurs.

Bird wanted Vogel to play faster, which meant having George play power forward in some stretches this season. The Pacers averaged 102.2 points per game in the regular season, which was 17th in the NBA. They averaged 93.7 per game in the postseason, which put them 12th out of 16 teams.

 

[MantisToboggan]

I'm torn here. Vogel isn't exactly Pop but I doubt Indiana ends up with a coach better than Vogel heading into next season.

I think what's obvious is that the Prick from French Lick is still the Prick from French Lick. At least he'll always be the guy who traded Kawhi Leonard for George Hill.

 

[PatsFan1283]

He had to go. Once you take away the 2 v 7, there was no reason they should've lost that series to Toronto.

He had a good run but he just isn't a very good offensive coach. And his rotations/lineups were terrible in the Toronto series.

 

[festeringZit]

I'm torn here. Vogel isn't exactly Pop but I doubt Indiana ends up with a coach better than Vogel heading into next season.

I think what's obvious is that the Prick from French Lick is still the Prick from French Lick. At least he'll always be the guy who traded Kawhi Leonard for George Hill.

Why the hatred for Larry?

 

[MantisToboggan]

Why the hatred for Larry?

I actually like and respect the hell out of him as a basketball player. Just not a fan of him as a guy.

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

The Prick from French Lick. haha. I never heard that before.

 

[MantisToboggan]

He had to go. Once you take away the 2 v 7, there was no reason they should've lost that series to Toronto.

He had a good run but he just isn't a very good offensive coach. And his rotations/lineups were terrible in the Toronto series.

I think that argument is questionable at best but I know you were on the Pacers so probably not an argument worth having.

Also incredibly silly to say "he had to go". You don't fire a guy unless you're bringing in someone better. Kind of similar to Houston canning McHale. Perfect example of making a move to make a move. Worked out really well for Houston too.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Bird has obviously been a very good GM. Drafted Paul George, Myles Turner, Hibbert, Granger all 10th lower. Stevenson in the 2nd rd. Not easy to compete as a small-market team that never bottoms out.

Even if he passed on Kawhi Leonard by trading him, so did many other teams by not drafting him.

 

[Greenbacks]

ESPN.....It's interesting that Larry Bird told Frank Vogel about his decision not to renew his contract over the phone. He let Rick Carlisle (2007) and Jim O'Brien (2001) go in person. Carlisle and Bird sat and talked for a while after he let him go. O'Brien was with Bird when he called Vogel in 2011 to let him know that he was being named interim coach.

 

[Greenbacks]

ESPN.....Since 2011, same year Vogel started coaching Pacers, only Heat & Bulls have had better win % in Eastern Conference.

 

[PatsFan1283]

I think that argument is questionable at best but I know you were on the Pacers so probably not an argument worth having.

Also incredibly silly to say "he had to go". You don't fire a guy unless you're bringing in someone better. Kind of similar to Houston canning McHale. Perfect example of making a move to make a move. Worked out really well for Houston too.

"No reason" is obviously an expression of hyperbole but it was a series that should've been won. And my judgement wouldn't be clouded by what team I bet, that is an opinion I would have if Indy was +200 instead of +350 and I didn't end up betting them.

You might do worse than him, you might do better but in pro sports if you aren't trying to improve, you're getting worse. Bird knows they need a more offensive minded coach to get to the next level.

 

[MantisToboggan]

Bird has obviously been a very good GM. Drafted Paul George, Myles Turner, Hibbert, Granger all 10th lower. Stevenson in the 2nd rd. Not easy to compete as a small-market team that never bottoms out.

Even if he passed on Kawhi Leonard by trading him, so did many other teams by not drafting him.

He's one of the better GMs at evaluating talent, but that's not the entire job. He's never been great at managing players or carrying out a long term plan. He isn't exactly the most patient man.

 

[MantisToboggan]

"No reason" is obviously an expression of hyperbole but it was a series that should've been won. And my judgement wouldn't be clouded by what team I bet, that is an opinion I would have if Indy was +200 instead of +350 and I didn't end up betting them.

You might do worse than him, you might do better but in pro sports if you aren't trying to improve, you're getting worse. Bird knows they need a more offensive minded coach to get to the next level.

Look at the roster he built. Does that really look like the roster of an offensive juggernaut to you? At a certain point it's not just X's and O's, it's Jimmy's and Joe's.

 

[PatsFan1283]

This was obviously a rebuilding year for Indy, they were making the transition away from the West/Hibbert halfcourt defensive team that they've been in years past. They finished the season about where their expectations were.

But once you get to the series vs Toronto and the series begins to unfold. It is clear you have the best player, you have two ace defenders to defend the other teams two best players. To quote Hubie Brown "This is a series where the matchups are very good for you."

He took until game 4 to bench Lavoy Allen and start Turner, never staggered George/Ellis minutes the entire series and kept running that 2nd unit out there to get killed, they were lucky if they could survive for 5-6 minutes. At some point you have to realize that certain guys can't play in the series and you need to shorten your rotation. You're punting huge portions of the game. Bird sees all of this.

This isn't stuff I am saying because they lost, this is stuff I was saying after their game 2 blowout loss. I actually think it was good they got killed game 3 rather than lose a close 1, because then he probably still wouldn't have adjusted.

 

[MantisToboggan]

This was obviously a rebuilding year for Indy, they were making the transition away from the West/Hibbert halfcourt defensive team that they've been in years past. They finished the season about where their expectations were.

But once you get to the series vs Toronto and the series begins to unfold. It is clear you have the best player, you have two ace defenders to defend the other teams two best players. To quote Hubie Brown "This is a series where the matchups are very good for you."

He took until game 4 to bench Lavoy Allen and start Turner, never staggered George/Ellis minutes the entire series and kept running that 2nd unit out there to get killed vs Indy. At some point you have to realize that certain guys can't play in the series and you need to shorten your rotation. You're punting huge portions of the game. Bird sees all of this.

This isn't stuff I am saying because they lost, this is stuff I was saying after their game 2 blowout loss. I actually think it was good they got killed game 3 rather than lose a close 1, because then he probably still wouldn't have adjusted.

I agree with 100% of that. It's never easy to trust a 20 year old rookie in the playoffs but not getting Turner in there earlier was mind blowing. Does Vogel get any credit for the way the Pacers defend/defended despite having to try multiple lineup combos to increase scoring?

I'm not here to argue that Vogel is a great coach or shouldn't have been fired, I just don't think they'll do any better. It also won't fix the fact that Bird has put together a flawed roster with no real long term plan. Let's also not pretend that Larry's ego isn't a problem. Between the Hibbert situation and Paul George at the 4 situation he hasn't exactly endeared himself to the his players. That's a problem in a player's league.

 

[festeringZit]

I actually like and respect the hell out of him as a basketball player. Just not a fan of him as a guy.

Bird was my favorite NBA player in the 1980's, growing up in New England. But I did lose respect for him, the way he treated his daughter Corrie,
from his first marriage.

 

[MantisToboggan]

Bird was my favorite NBA player in the 1980's, growing up in New England. But I did lose respect for him, the way he treated his daughter Corrie,
from his first marriage.

That had to be fun. Hard to beat pulling for him and those squads as your basketball experience growing up. Unbelievable player. Skill was off the charts.

But as you pointed out with the daughter example, just not the greatest guy.

 

[MantisToboggan]

Almost feels like Larry is a taking a page out of the Bulls playbook. Maybe he can grab Fred Hoiberg. Great offensive mind.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Sure he gets a lot of credit, but that doesn't mean it isn't time to move on or try to improve. Even if you are a dog to do better, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Not much room for error with a small-market team. George is a FA in 2 years and is probably a favorite to leave if you don't start getting proactive, so it is a good idea to start gambling.

They have the 2nd best player in the East and one of the better young prospects in Turner. It is a solid core to build on, they just have to improve fast. It is a high leverage situation where the status quo is the wrong way to go.

And again, he just coached terribly in a series that should've been won. Whether you agree that it should've been won or not, that is obviously a big part of Bird's perspective.

 

[PatsFan1283]

What if they beat Toronto, then they would have a reasonable chance to beat Miami. Then you make the conference finals, much easier to attract free agents and become a bonafide contending team.

Bird knows all of this and understands how that loss may not look like much on the surface since they were a 7 seed, but it was a potentially legitimate blow to the franchise.