Think of the National Debt as a Loan that Never has to be Paid Off

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It's not illogical, it's a fact.

US GDP
1970 - $4.2 trillions
2011 - $15.2 trillions
261 % increase.

US Public debts
1970 - $400 billions
2011 - $15.1 trillions
3675% increase

Since 1970, on average, 14% increase in public debt is equivalent to only 1% increase ib GDP.

The consumerist debt growth economy is over whether you like it or not.

We don't need more debts, we need to live within our mean. You can stick your Keynesian brainwashed head to your ass.

You are still including intragovernmental debt. You will never learn. You are a useless human being.
 

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You are still including intragovernmental debt. You will never learn. You are a useless human being.

Debt is debt. Future benefits must be paid, they're are liabilities to the government/taxpayers. They must show on accounting report. It's basic GAAP reporting

Only fucking brainwashed sheep like you would think debt is no debt.
 

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Debt is debt. Future benefits must be paid, they're are liabilities to the government/taxpayers. They must show on accounting report. It's basic GAAP reporting

Only fucking brainwashed sheep like you would think debt is no debt.

Lol, so who does the Govt owe for intragovernmental debt?
 

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Lol, so who does the Govt owe for intragovernmental debt?

Who do you think? 38 millions beneficiaries held hostage in the summer...

Why do you think government has any right to hold beneficiaries hostages for the benefits they're entitled to?
 

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Who do you think? 38 millions beneficiaries held hostage in the summer...

Why do you think government has any right to hold beneficiaries hostages for the benefits they're entitled to?

Lol, I'm not saying anything about the Govt paying beneficiaries. I'm simply asking who does the Govt owe to pay off intragovernmental debt?
 

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Lol, I'm not saying anything about the Govt paying beneficiaries. I'm simply asking who does the Govt owe to pay off intragovernmental debt?

Government has been pocketing and spending all the premium they're collecting, they owe the benefits to current and future beneficiaries. Do you read the term and agreement of GAS??- they're all public debts.

Now, why do you think the government has the right to hold beneficiaries hostage for the benefits they're entitled to?
 

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The Govt can most definitely give you a medium of exchange in which you use to exchange for real goods and services. I do not know what you mean by the Govt can't give us anything. So your solution to getting out of a recession where people are spending less money and people don't have jobs (income) is to cut even more spending and to cut even more jobs?? Do you realize why your solution is not used, haha. What you want to do is completely depress the economy to the point where it can finally build itself back up. But what is the time frame for this? How long does it take for an economy to climb out of this hole you want to put us in? The deflation would kick in, suppressing even more growth, and we would be in a decade long depression.

Please explain to me logically how cutting Govt spending and slashing Govt jobs during a recession would help us get out of the recession, lol. Cause for the life of me I can't figure it out.


If Little Ben ever raises interest rates it will be because the economy is growing again. If the economy is growing again it means the Govt will get more revenue. As long as the Govt gets more revenue in relation to interest we are fine. We are at one of the lowest points in history in terms of interest to Govt spending. We are at mid 1990s levels of nominal interest spending. There is nothing wrong with couple hundred billions of dollars in extra interest expenses. That would actually be a good sign.

This inflation fear you have is puzzling. I do not get where you are seeing this mass amount of buying going on to cause prices to rise. Remember there are two aspects to the money supply used in transactions... not just the quantity of money that exists.

I suppose you know more then fucking Kyle Bass, eh? Guy basically says the exact same thing i have been saying, i suppose he is wrong. 47 minutes in he waxes philosophical. Whats your defense, Grugman??? LMFAOOOOOO

 

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Kyle Bass:

How do you solve a problem where you’re running a 10% fiscal deficit? You’re not going to get growth in the absence of private sector credit demand, so the government’s idea right now is that we’re going to export our way out of this. And when I asked a senior member of the Obama administration last week ‘how are we going to grow exports if we won’t allow nominal wage deflation?’ And he says ‘we’re just going to kill the dollar’ I said ok – more you mean. So that’s the only answer – it’s a dead answer, but that’s where we’re headed. So if you made me the Tsar what would I do? I’d go out there and I’d try to cut a bunch of things, and GDP would drop and unemployment would go up and I’d be the persona non grata. But it would be the right decision for our country for the next ten years.

:howdy:
 

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I suppose you know more then fucking Kyle Bass, eh? Guy basically says the exact same thing i have been saying, i suppose he is wrong. 47 minutes in he waxes philosophical. Whats your defense, Grugman??? LMFAOOOOOO

LOL!!!! Kyle Bass?? Geez, you will listen to anyone and everyone that supports your ridiculous opinion. If you want actual academics and real economists than here are a list of people that support me.

http://moslereconomics.com/support/

And if you want some more information...

Scott Fullwiler

James A. Leach Chair in Banking and Monetary Economics
Wartburg College
IA
President
Center for Full Employment and Price Stability


http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/search/label/Scott Fullwiler


That's your guys problem. You listen to people on the media and investors who are pushing their political agenda. I listen to academics. And I don't even read Krugman anymore because he is an arrogant jackass.



This video does not at all prove me wrong and it's embarrassing that you think it would.
 

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Kyle Bass:

And when I asked a senior member of the Obama administration last week ‘how are we going to grow exports if we won’t allow nominal wage deflation?’ And he says ‘we’re just going to kill the dollar’

:howdy:

Nominal wage deflation??? This guy wants wages to go down? You want to talk about a depression! Here we come!
 

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Nominal wage deflation??? This guy wants wages to go down? You want to talk about a depression! Here we come!

Uh no. He is simply stating let the market self correct itself. But you dont want that, you want bubbles and artificial wealth.

This fiat system destroys savings and all you want to do is promote more of that. If i had 1900 dollars in my bank account in 1971 , what would i have today? 1900 dollars still plus with incurred interest at lets say an annual rate of 3%, you would probably come out today with at least double that. Factor in purchasing power and inflation and your 4000 or whatever is only buying you 20% of what it did in 1971. Take that same 1900 and say you bought 50 1 oz gold coins for the set price of 38$ each. Today at about 1600 per oz that original 50 gold coins would fetch you 80,000. Do you not see how this destroys savings? Do you not see how this hurts the most vulnerable of Americans? If you cant, there is no hope for you.

Post Script: The blogger you cite? Read the comments, he was getting killed by readers.
 

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Uh no. He is simply stating let the market self correct itself. But you dont want that, you want bubbles and artificial wealth.

This fiat system destroys savings and all you want to do is promote more of that. If i had 1900 dollars in my bank account in 1971 , what would i have today? 1900 dollars still plus with incurred interest at lets say an annual rate of 3%, you would probably come out today with at least double that. Factor in purchasing power and inflation and your 4000 or whatever is only buying you 20% of what it did in 1971. Take that same 1900 and say you bought 50 1 oz gold coins for the set price of 38$ each. Today at about 1600 per oz that original 50 gold coins would fetch you 80,000. Do you not see how this destroys savings? Do you not see how this hurts the most vulnerable of Americans? If you cant, there is no hope for you.

Post Script: The blogger you cite? Read the comments, he was getting killed by readers.

Those readers are as dumb as the guys on this forum. Of course they are going to sound like they are schooling him to you. You think Snoop is schooling me... haha. He is a professor of economics and deals with macroeconomic policy. Your source is a fund manager who made money betting against housing. I wonder who knows more about macroeconomics, lol.

And I expect more from you. Do you still not understand what inflation is? For some reason you think you would have the money you have today if there wasn't any inflation. You guys don't look at the big picture, you only think about things from your point of view. That is why policy makers do not ever do what you say because it would destroy the country. If you don't want your purchasing power eroded by inflation, than don't stick your money under a mattress. Try to make more money like everyone else.

You and Snoop act like you would be millionaires were it not for inflation, lol. This is your guys train of thought... "Oh my gosh Snoop made $30,000 this year as a manager at Taco Bell. Wait a second, if he made $30,000 in 1971 it would be worth $173,000 now!! Snoop is getting screwed by the man!!"

That is your guys logic. How logical is it that a Taco Bell manager would be making more than a doctor in 1971, lol. You guys simply don't get it.
 

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Think about it logically. Think about your % worth to the pie of money. How much is my labor or productivity worth relative to everyone else?

So let's make a simple example. Let's say in Year-1 you made $100 and there was $1000 in the money supply.

Your worth is 10% of the money supply.

Let's say the Govt dumps $1000 more in to the money supply. Now if your worth is still 10% than you will be making $200 now.

Now if inflation increases say 50% you would need to be making $150 now in order to have the same purchasing power as before. But now your REAL purchasing power has increased. You are much better off even though your last years dollars are worth less. That is why we look at REAL GDP per Capita and REAL disposable income. And all of that says we are much better off now than in 1971. For those people that couldn't maintain their worth to society, they have less purchasing power than before because they are worth less to society.
 

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Think about it logically. Think about your % worth to the pie of money. How much is my labor or productivity worth relative to everyone else?

So let's make a simple example. Let's say in Year-1 you made $100 and there was $1000 in the money supply.

Your worth is 10% of the money supply.

Let's say the Govt dumps $1000 more in to the money supply. Now if your worth is still 10% than you will be making $200 now.

Now if inflation increases say 50% you would need to be making $150 now in order to have the same purchasing power as before. But now your REAL purchasing power has increased. You are much better off even though your last years dollars are worth less. That is why we look at REAL GDP per Capita and REAL disposable income. And all of that says we are much better off now than in 1971. For those people that couldn't maintain their worth to society, they have less purchasing power than before because they are worth less to society.

The problem is most people fall into the camp of being worth less to society. Thats what you have happening now. We cant sit here and pretend inflation doesnt hurt the majority of Americans all we want but the trouble is you live In Alaska and study economic theory and have your dad do your taxes, ie you dont have a clue how the real world works. When the interest rates are lowered and anytime a new loan is made it eats away the existing money supply. Its 2+2 = 4. You cant spin it. People cant catch up due to inflation and lack of jobs and pay increases. And wealth gains have been made at the very top rightly or wrongly so that isnt the point. Thus many go into debt and get stuck. We dont have enough worthy credit candidates anymore, if you did you wouldnt have trillions in bank reserves would you? The income gap in this country is hallowing out the middle class, nothing you advocate will stop that from happening when all you preach about is liquidity injections. There is a bunch of people disagreeing with your cite on his own site and just like its us and them that dont know what we are talking about. Do you actually believe this shit you type? The problem is the current and future economic situation is and will continue to deteriorate unless you take on drastic '180 degree measures to halt it. Welcoming a depression right now is the only way to fix this long term. If we dont its going to unravel and you will have financial Armageddon. You want to do the same things and then some. Its absolute utter madness what you are posting here.

real-after-tax-average-income-by-income-group.gif
 

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The problem is most people fall into the camp of being worth less to society. Thats what you have happening now. We cant sit here and pretend inflation doesnt hurt the majority of Americans all we want but the trouble is you live In Alaska and study economic theory and have your dad do your taxes, ie you dont have a clue how the real world works. When the interest rates are lowered and anytime a new loan is made it eats away the existing money supply. Its 2+2 = 4. You cant spin it. People cant catch up due to inflation and lack of jobs and pay increases. And wealth gains have been made at the very top rightly or wrongly so that isnt the point. Thus many go into debt and get stuck. We dont have enough worthy credit candidates anymore, if you did you wouldnt have trillions in bank reserves would you? The income gap in this country is hallowing out the middle class, nothing you advocate will stop that from happening when all you preach about is liquidity injections. There is a bunch of people disagreeing with your cite on his own site and just like its us and them that dont know what we are talking about. Do you actually believe this shit you type? The problem is the current and future economic situation is and will continue to deteriorate unless you take on drastic '180 degree measures to halt it. Welcoming a depression right now is the only way to fix this long term. If we dont its going to unravel and you will have financial Armageddon. You want to do the same things and then some. Its absolute utter madness what you are posting here.

What I'm posting here is the same logic they use to make decisions in the real world. All you are doing is pointing out the flaws of the system but you aren't giving any solutions. And the solutions you are giving are based on assumptions that wouldn't exist if your theory existed. Inflation is simple. You have $10,000 right now. If you can't increase that $10,000 than you are going to lose purchasing power because you haven't increased your worth.

And you are all over the place throwing out logical fallacy after logical fallacy. And the graph you showed is real after-tax income... which means on average everyone is better off than they were 30 years ago. Some not as much as others for sure, but that's what you get in any economic system that isn't socialistic. This is capitalism at it's finest, lol. Where your misunderstanding comes from is your still thinking that people would be making the same amount of money they are now with out inflation.

You have a lot to learn and your incessant fear of inflation is simply your lack of education. If you can't increase your worth to society regardless of deflation, inflation, or no inflation, you are not going to make as much money. Monetary inflation actually allows the country to be net gainers instead of living in a zero-sum society where my gains are your losses. We will always strive for inflation the rest of eternity. It is a fact of economics that has been proven to be the most efficient way of continuing growth and preventing deflationary depressions. And it's not like it's a secret. It's well known all across the world that we target a rate of inflation every year. And you still think you know more than the economists who run the largest economy in the history of mankind??? Lol!! The system isn't perfect but it's MUCH better than what you are advocating. Which is why they use it instead of your illogically based theory.
 

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My bitch goes above and beyond stupidity everyday. He thinks fiat currency itself carries some kind of magic, it will fix all the economy problems in the world. Is Bernanke trying to do just that? He keeps interest near zero since 2008 to encourage more lendings, but if there are no loan demands, then banks just can't lend. You can lead the horse to the water but you can't make him drink. The consumers are saturated in debts, they're already struggling to keep up with current debts let alone taking out new debts. Until consumers get their household balance sheets in order, the consumers spending driven economy remains in the ditch.

Since 1970, on average, after adjusted inflation, American workers work less hours, take home less income, save less money. The consumerist debt growth economy has hit the ceiling. There is no intervention or stimulus can change that. Stop prolong the agony, take the pill now and get over it.
 

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Some not as much as others for sure, but that's what you get in any economic system that isn't socialistic. This is capitalism at it's finest, lol.

This is capitalism at its finest????????? This isnt capitalism at all. True capitalism wouldnt have welcomed a bailout of the banks. True capitalism would require a nation of savers not fiat no risk wind falls. True capitalism? This sentence proves your ignorance.
 

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This is capitalism at its finest????????? This isnt capitalism at all. True capitalism wouldnt have welcomed a bailout of the banks. True capitalism would require a nation of savers not fiat no risk wind falls. True capitalism? This sentence proves your ignorance.

Way to take the quote wayyyyyyyyyyyy out of context. I meant capitalism rewards the wealthy more than it does the poor. So your graph that showed income inequalities is what happens in capitalism. I'm not arguing against it even though I think some measures on the fiscal side should be done to close that gap, but it means nothing about a completely laissez-faire capitalistic economy that you propose.

So your theoretical economy would be a nation of savers. So it would be a nation of people that made money and kept it. So as people kept more and more money where would the people with out money get money? And don't just say work for it, implying that anyone who wants a job can get one. Explain to me how a nation of savers, along with a Govt that balances it's budget and doesn't spend beyond it's means would make us better off?
 

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LOL Modern Monetary Theorist....so wrong to the point I don't know where to begin here.......

Savings are NOT same as hoardings. When you save you allow other to spend. In this case the banks can lend your money to whoever wishes to spend or invest, thus creating more wealth. China has highest personal savings rate and hoarding cash, is Chinese economy tanking? Savings if anything is an indication of one produces more than he or she consumes.

The reason American can barely save any money because they're struggling with higher inflation in necessities spending while getting paid at lower wage, less benefits, less hours. American personal saving rate is bouncing around near record low now, do you see the economy is booming yet? According your theory?
 

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LOL Modern Monetary Theorist....so wrong to the point I don't know where to begin here.......

Savings are NOT same as hoardings. When you save you allow other to spend. In this case the banks can lend your money to whoever wishes to spend or invest, thus creating more wealth. China has highest personal savings rate and hoarding cash, is Chinese economy tanking? Savings if anything is an indication of one produces more than he or she consumes.

The reason American can barely save any money because they're struggling with higher inflation in necessities spending while getting paid at lower wage, less benefits, less hours. American personal saving rate is bouncing around near record low now, do you see the economy is booming yet? According your theory?

Your guys problem is you can not visualize the system as a whole. I mean this comment you just made has so much stupidity in it I don't know where to even start.

Banks lend our savings??? I have gone over this with you. Banks do not need your money in order to lend money. You saving money does not give the banking system any extra money to lend. How dumb can you be?

China??? You want us to be more like China? They have a $7,000 real gdp per capita. On average an individual American has almost $40,000 more in purchasing power than the Chinese. China also has a higher inflation rate than us. So do you still want to be like China even though inflation scares you to death? Are you really this dumb?

And if you couldn't get any more dumber, you say that American personal saving rate is at record lows???? Do you just make shit up out of thin air? The savings rate is what is killing America. This is a perfect example of a country that is saving more than it did before. You get in a recession and the Govt has to bridge the gap of savings by pumping more money in to the economy. Do you ever listen to anything I say? I have explained this to you in detail. You are so dumb, it's embarrassing that I even waste my time on you. But the only reason I do it is because other people have your same thought process and maybe this will help them out. You on the other hand, are a lost cause.

Savings rate is at an all time low!! Hahahahaha. The savings rate was at an all time low right before the collapse, then it jumped up almost 400%. Notice the correlation between savings and recessions. And if you understand anything about macroeconomics it makes sense. But since you don't, you will come up with some stupid excuse about India or something. You my friend are an idiot!!

PSAVERT_Max_630_378.png
 

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