Getting into Rice numbers..
Today 15 years of frustration and waiting and debate finally will end.
Jim Rice either will be named a baseball Hall of Famer, or his case will be passed on to the Veterans Committee.
Many of us who covered the Red Sox slugger and were around him when he was a coach and now a NESN analyst think he's worthy and wonder what's taking so long.
Oh sure, he's not the slam dunk Rickey Henderson will be in voting by the Baseball Writers' Association of America, but here's a case in which your eyes had to overshadow the borderline numbers. If you watched Rice, you realized he was the best of the era in which he played.
It's taken a while, but slowly and surely Rice's vote totals have risen, to his being named on 72.2 percent of the ballots last January, 16 votes shy of the 75 percent needed.
Whether he will benefit from the steroid fallout of so many players who came after him, who knows? Rice hit .298 in his career, with 382 homers, 1,451 runs batted in, and a .502 slugging percentage.
For so many years it has been thought that maybe this private and sometimes grumpy guy was kept out because the writers didn't like him. It was a silly thing to write 10 years ago and is a silly thing to write now.
Oh, he had his battles with writers. I saw him rip the shirt off my gifted former colleague Steve Fainaru (then with the Hartford Courant) in the middle of the visiting clubhouse in Oakland in the late 1980s. Catcher Rich Gedman and I stepped between them to prevent an escalation. I remember the stories of his run-ins with <ORG idsrc="NYSE" value="WPO">Washington Post</ORG> columnist Thomas Boswell, Rice once threatening to throw him into a trash barrel because he didn't like his questioning.
But while Boswell and Rice had their issues, the writer also thought the player was exceptional.
"In the 'Hank Greenberg Story,' Hank talks intelligently (as always) about the supremacy of driving in runs as the competitive core of the game," Boswell wrote in an e-mail. "He said that key RBI hits (not just home runs) were what changed games, decided games, defined players."
If that is indeed the key measure, from 1975-1986 Rice knocked in more runs than anyone - 1,276 to 1,221 for Mike Schmidt and 1,147 for Dave Winfield.
We know some in the Sabermetric community will rip Hall voters if Rice should receive 75 percent of the vote. Even Bill James, a Red Sox consultant and a huge detractor of the Rice candidacy, won't be totally on board, nor will James's followers, which include some of his colleagues in the Boston front office.
While Washington Post writers haven't been allowed to cast Hall of Fame votes for several years now, when they were, Rice received Boswell's vote.
"When we could [vote], I voted for Rice several times," Boswell wrote. "Don't remember how many years I waited. I certainly didn't vote for him in the first, second, or third years. Obviously, he's the definition of a close call.
"I joked with him a couple of times that I was voting for him, even when it didn't look like he had much chance. I made the case for him with other writers at times: He was a mortal lock Hall of Famer for 11 years until, suddenly, he was finished."
If you only consider some of the most traditional statistics, batting average, homers, RBIs, slugging, and total bases, Boswell points out that Rice had 11 titles in those five categories, one more than Hall of Fame ex-teammate Carl Yastrzemski.
Rice obviously is not in the top echelon there: Babe Ruth had 38 wins in those categories, Ted Williams 29, Hank Aaron 22, and Stan Musial 20.
But among the other names in Rice's vicinity are Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays with 13, Ralph Kiner with 12, and Harmon Killebrew with 10.
And Rice has more wins in those categories than Reggie Jackson, Frank Robinson, and Willie McCovey (8), George Brett and Duke Snider (7), Ernie Banks (6), Billy Williams (5), Roberto Clemente, Kirby Puckett, and Willie Stargell (4), Orlando Cepeda and Al Kaline (3), Eddie Murray and Dave Winfield (2), Cal Ripken (1), and Tony Perez (0).
Of course some of those players had other plus attributes, including defense.
"In the years I was around him and watched him up close, he was the most feared hitter in the league," said Red Sox consultant and former Sox player Tommy Harper.
Many of Rice's teammates would echo that, but detractors would say they are too close to him to give an objective opinion.
There's also the belief that older voters were more likely to vote for Rice, while younger ones, more slanted toward stats such as on base percentage, might not have.
Rice finished with an ordinary .352 OBP.
After today, he'll either be in or not, although he still could get in via the Veterans Committee.
"I know that Jimmy downplays it," said Harper, "but to be honored at the end of your career in this manner would be an honor that anyone would cherish.
"If you're that close to [being considered one of] the best who ever played the game, you have to want this."
"If Rice doesn't make it, it won't be a huge injustice," wrote Boswell.
"Length-of-productive-career matters. And he did almost nothing after age 33. But I covered his whole career and when you say 'Rice,' I think 'Hall of Famer.' "
written by Nick Cafardo
Boston Globe..
Today 15 years of frustration and waiting and debate finally will end.
Jim Rice either will be named a baseball Hall of Famer, or his case will be passed on to the Veterans Committee.
Many of us who covered the Red Sox slugger and were around him when he was a coach and now a NESN analyst think he's worthy and wonder what's taking so long.
Oh sure, he's not the slam dunk Rickey Henderson will be in voting by the Baseball Writers' Association of America, but here's a case in which your eyes had to overshadow the borderline numbers. If you watched Rice, you realized he was the best of the era in which he played.
It's taken a while, but slowly and surely Rice's vote totals have risen, to his being named on 72.2 percent of the ballots last January, 16 votes shy of the 75 percent needed.
Whether he will benefit from the steroid fallout of so many players who came after him, who knows? Rice hit .298 in his career, with 382 homers, 1,451 runs batted in, and a .502 slugging percentage.
For so many years it has been thought that maybe this private and sometimes grumpy guy was kept out because the writers didn't like him. It was a silly thing to write 10 years ago and is a silly thing to write now.
Oh, he had his battles with writers. I saw him rip the shirt off my gifted former colleague Steve Fainaru (then with the Hartford Courant) in the middle of the visiting clubhouse in Oakland in the late 1980s. Catcher Rich Gedman and I stepped between them to prevent an escalation. I remember the stories of his run-ins with <ORG idsrc="NYSE" value="WPO">Washington Post</ORG> columnist Thomas Boswell, Rice once threatening to throw him into a trash barrel because he didn't like his questioning.
But while Boswell and Rice had their issues, the writer also thought the player was exceptional.
"In the 'Hank Greenberg Story,' Hank talks intelligently (as always) about the supremacy of driving in runs as the competitive core of the game," Boswell wrote in an e-mail. "He said that key RBI hits (not just home runs) were what changed games, decided games, defined players."
If that is indeed the key measure, from 1975-1986 Rice knocked in more runs than anyone - 1,276 to 1,221 for Mike Schmidt and 1,147 for Dave Winfield.
We know some in the Sabermetric community will rip Hall voters if Rice should receive 75 percent of the vote. Even Bill James, a Red Sox consultant and a huge detractor of the Rice candidacy, won't be totally on board, nor will James's followers, which include some of his colleagues in the Boston front office.
While Washington Post writers haven't been allowed to cast Hall of Fame votes for several years now, when they were, Rice received Boswell's vote.
"When we could [vote], I voted for Rice several times," Boswell wrote. "Don't remember how many years I waited. I certainly didn't vote for him in the first, second, or third years. Obviously, he's the definition of a close call.
"I joked with him a couple of times that I was voting for him, even when it didn't look like he had much chance. I made the case for him with other writers at times: He was a mortal lock Hall of Famer for 11 years until, suddenly, he was finished."
If you only consider some of the most traditional statistics, batting average, homers, RBIs, slugging, and total bases, Boswell points out that Rice had 11 titles in those five categories, one more than Hall of Fame ex-teammate Carl Yastrzemski.
Rice obviously is not in the top echelon there: Babe Ruth had 38 wins in those categories, Ted Williams 29, Hank Aaron 22, and Stan Musial 20.
But among the other names in Rice's vicinity are Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays with 13, Ralph Kiner with 12, and Harmon Killebrew with 10.
And Rice has more wins in those categories than Reggie Jackson, Frank Robinson, and Willie McCovey (8), George Brett and Duke Snider (7), Ernie Banks (6), Billy Williams (5), Roberto Clemente, Kirby Puckett, and Willie Stargell (4), Orlando Cepeda and Al Kaline (3), Eddie Murray and Dave Winfield (2), Cal Ripken (1), and Tony Perez (0).
Of course some of those players had other plus attributes, including defense.
"In the years I was around him and watched him up close, he was the most feared hitter in the league," said Red Sox consultant and former Sox player Tommy Harper.
Many of Rice's teammates would echo that, but detractors would say they are too close to him to give an objective opinion.
There's also the belief that older voters were more likely to vote for Rice, while younger ones, more slanted toward stats such as on base percentage, might not have.
Rice finished with an ordinary .352 OBP.
After today, he'll either be in or not, although he still could get in via the Veterans Committee.
"I know that Jimmy downplays it," said Harper, "but to be honored at the end of your career in this manner would be an honor that anyone would cherish.
"If you're that close to [being considered one of] the best who ever played the game, you have to want this."
"If Rice doesn't make it, it won't be a huge injustice," wrote Boswell.
"Length-of-productive-career matters. And he did almost nothing after age 33. But I covered his whole career and when you say 'Rice,' I think 'Hall of Famer.' "
written by Nick Cafardo
Boston Globe..
OK, well I didnt know that he only missed it by 15 votes last year. Well certainly he gets in though this year. I do think that he is near the bottom of the crop in the Hall of Fame though.
But hey, none of us are even on the ballot.
WIL, can you rule on that other thread with feelthetruth? Can you call skybook and SIA and verify what their OPENING number was for the game on Jan 9th between Boston/Cleveland.
Or just check it with sportsoptions since that is what we were really using. It has to be the opening number, not closing number. If EITHER book opened at -4.5, then we tied our bet. I show that skybook DEFINITELY opened at -4.5 and I cant seem to locate what number that SIA opened
But hey, none of us are even on the ballot.
WIL, can you rule on that other thread with feelthetruth? Can you call skybook and SIA and verify what their OPENING number was for the game on Jan 9th between Boston/Cleveland.
Or just check it with sportsoptions since that is what we were really using. It has to be the opening number, not closing number. If EITHER book opened at -4.5, then we tied our bet. I show that skybook DEFINITELY opened at -4.5 and I cant seem to locate what number that SIA opened
Meanwhile, as thousands and thousands discuss the debate on Jim Rice being elected to the HOF, a few others and myself continue to make the point that Dwight Evans deserves equal consideration or possibly more!!!!!!
Player...........OBP...........HR..........RBI...........R
Evans...........370...........385.........1384.........1470
Rice.............352............382.........1451.........1249
Now throw in Dwight's NINE GOLD GLOVES(and perhaps one of the best all-around outfield arms ever) and compare it to Rice's average defense at best, and there is no question in my mind that Dwight deserves just as much consideration as Rice for the HOF.
-FH-
Player...........OBP...........HR..........RBI...........R
Evans...........370...........385.........1384.........1470
Rice.............352............382.........1451.........1249
Now throw in Dwight's NINE GOLD GLOVES(and perhaps one of the best all-around outfield arms ever) and compare it to Rice's average defense at best, and there is no question in my mind that Dwight deserves just as much consideration as Rice for the HOF.
-FH-
If Rice makes the Hall-of-Fame the honor will finally lose most of its credibility. For the most part the sports writers have done a very good job maintaining decent standards with only a few mistakes. There are at least 20 players better than Rice who did not make the Hall-of-Fame. To put him in would mean that now the writers -- along with the veterans committee -- ignore history, standards and any sense of understanding the sport in favor of their own self interests
At least if he does make it, we will finally be able to know with absolute certainty that the sports writers are idiots
At least if he does make it, we will finally be able to know with absolute certainty that the sports writers are idiots
Jim Rice belongs in the hall, I watched him play many times, he was a dominant player
Rice was an eight-time All-Star and a one-time American League MVP (1978). He had eight seasons with 100 or more RBIs, seven seasons with a batting average of .300 or better, six seasons in which he finished in the top five of the AL MVP voting, four 200-hit seasons, and he led the AL in home runs three times. He played in more than 2,000 games with one team, the Red Sox.
His lifetime average was .298 and he had 1,451 career RBIs.
He was a dominant power hitter before steroids polluted the game and skewed the numbers. Rice hit 46 homers in a season back when it meant something - before 50 homers became the stats provided by players like Brady Anderson and Luis Gonzalez.
People who played and watched major league baseball from 1975-86 know that Rice was the most feared hitter of his day.
Managers thought about intentionally walking him when he came to the plate with the bases loaded. Jim Rice played hard and he played hurt.
His managers loved him. Opponents feared him. In 1978, his MVP year, he became the first American League player to compile 400 total bases since Joe DiMaggio in the 1940s.
To say there are 20 players not in the HOF who are eligible that had better careers than Jim Rice is ludicrous.
Dwight Evans was an outstanding player but he never terrorized pitchers with anything close to the degree that Rice did.
Fredd Lynn had a great rookie year, maybe the best in MLB history but the rest of his career was all downhill. Lifetime Bat Ave of .283 career Home Runs 306 and career RBI 1111. He never finished with 200 hits in a season and didn't break .300 as a hitter his last 12 years of his 17 year career. Lynn only brook the 30 homer mark one season out of 17 when he hit 39 in 1979, Rice hit 39 homers 3 times and 46 once. Lynn only broke the 100 RBI mark twice (Rice did it 8 times). Etc.
Name 5 nevermind 20 players who are eligible for the Hall but not in yet that had better careers than Rice did. Andre Dawson is probably the closest but his .279 lifetime BA hurts not to mention his bad knees, he should get in one of these years, Tim Raines, will get in also despite lack of real power, the rest have a tough row to hoe -- Dave Parker, Alan Trammell, Mo Vaughan, Mark Grace, Dale Murphy, Matt Williams, Ron Gant, Jay Bell , Harold Baines etc. I am not counting pitchers as there is no real way to compare them to hitters.
wil.
Rice was an eight-time All-Star and a one-time American League MVP (1978). He had eight seasons with 100 or more RBIs, seven seasons with a batting average of .300 or better, six seasons in which he finished in the top five of the AL MVP voting, four 200-hit seasons, and he led the AL in home runs three times. He played in more than 2,000 games with one team, the Red Sox.
His lifetime average was .298 and he had 1,451 career RBIs.
He was a dominant power hitter before steroids polluted the game and skewed the numbers. Rice hit 46 homers in a season back when it meant something - before 50 homers became the stats provided by players like Brady Anderson and Luis Gonzalez.
People who played and watched major league baseball from 1975-86 know that Rice was the most feared hitter of his day.
Managers thought about intentionally walking him when he came to the plate with the bases loaded. Jim Rice played hard and he played hurt.
His managers loved him. Opponents feared him. In 1978, his MVP year, he became the first American League player to compile 400 total bases since Joe DiMaggio in the 1940s.
To say there are 20 players not in the HOF who are eligible that had better careers than Jim Rice is ludicrous.
Dwight Evans was an outstanding player but he never terrorized pitchers with anything close to the degree that Rice did.
Fredd Lynn had a great rookie year, maybe the best in MLB history but the rest of his career was all downhill. Lifetime Bat Ave of .283 career Home Runs 306 and career RBI 1111. He never finished with 200 hits in a season and didn't break .300 as a hitter his last 12 years of his 17 year career. Lynn only brook the 30 homer mark one season out of 17 when he hit 39 in 1979, Rice hit 39 homers 3 times and 46 once. Lynn only broke the 100 RBI mark twice (Rice did it 8 times). Etc.
Name 5 nevermind 20 players who are eligible for the Hall but not in yet that had better careers than Rice did. Andre Dawson is probably the closest but his .279 lifetime BA hurts not to mention his bad knees, he should get in one of these years, Tim Raines, will get in also despite lack of real power, the rest have a tough row to hoe -- Dave Parker, Alan Trammell, Mo Vaughan, Mark Grace, Dale Murphy, Matt Williams, Ron Gant, Jay Bell , Harold Baines etc. I am not counting pitchers as there is no real way to compare them to hitters.
wil.
