RESPONSE FROM BETCBS ON TENNIS SITUATION.......

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Since the thread was so long and some may have missed it here is Dave's side of the story.


Let me begin by saying that the enclosed response is for the purpose of clearing up some untruths that have been posted here and is for the benefit of the readers and the many concerned players who have held betCBS in high regard for many years. I am not going to come back in and argue this item further. My final decision has already been made on the customer 'Areef' along with the other players affected. I will not use this forum to argue my policies. I will not attempt to try to fight posters who may not agree with the decision. After reading my decision each player can make his own opinion about how the situation was handled and can decide if they want to play at betCBS in the future.

This post was not made sooner because I have been out of town for the last couple days and there has been an impending investigation made on the accounts in question. I apologize for not clearing the air the last couple days but I did not want to respond to a complant without having the facts of every detail. I appreciate being given the opportunity to explain and I hope the forum will keep an open mind when reading how I dealt with the problem. There are a few things that have not been said and I think you will find them very interesting. Other books deal with this same problem everyday. Many times you do not hear about the situation because it is normally silenced before it becomes public knowledge. I did not give into the threats made and that is why you have had the pleasure of reading the one-sided version of the situation the last few days from the player 'Areef'.

I guess Ill start by giving a run down of EXACTLY what transpired on the tennis bet in question. All times that I list below are Eastern time.

The line on the tennis match in question was posted at 6:00 PM on Sunday June 22nd. The line was opened at +400. Other books who were using that same Matchup at the time:

William Hill Nadal +300
Victor Chandler Nadal +250
Ladbrokes Nadal +350
As you can see even the +400 we were using at betCBS was a little high.

Wagers were taken on both sides of the match up until 9:45 that evening. At that point we had taken bets on both players but we were heavy on the dog. The line manager on staff (who does work the entire evening) moved the line incorrectly. Instead of moving the match to +350 he moved it istead to +605. We are not sure why this happened but it can be assumed it was a simple case of human error.

We took many bets on the Matchup throughout the evening and right up until it went off the board. The line manager did not realize the mistake until three bets came in minutes apart on Nadal for the maximum limit(total of $3000).
The Matchup was immediately closed and we started to investigate the situation.

The first thing we do in a situation like this one is profile each account. When a 'bad line' is posted the book forces itself into a lose-lose situation. If we cancell the bet completely we look like thieves in the eyes of everyone involved. If we pay the player knowing full well that he only made the wager because of the discrepancy then we are encouraging this type of 'cherry picking' and put ourselves and the future success of the business at the mercy of these type of players. At betCBS we try to find the right middle ground to treat all players fairly.

We have it written very clearly on our website under the Sportsbook Rules #18:

" Casablanca reserves the right to cancel any wager placed on an incorrect line. "
Keep in mind this rule is not written in order to to give betCBS free reign to cancell wager at will. The rule is in place so we can use it in situations where it is discovered the player purposely acted in a dishonest way to take advantage of an obvious error.
The first step I took was to look at each wager as well as each account that placed the wager. The wagers that were taken at +400 the previous night were all obviously honored. Every wager placed before the line was moved incorrectly was paid out in full. The wagers that were taken during the night after the error by the line manager were all investigated. The only wagers that were cancelled by us at betCBS were from 4 seperate accounts and I will explain below why they were cancelled. Please keep in mind that there were 5 other accounts that made wagers that night and morning @ +605 on this Matchup and they were paid in full at the incorrect line:
Here is the criteria I used to decide which players were allowed to keep the wagers:
1st Wager Type
Do these players normally wager on Tennis or any other Matchup sports?
2nd Wager Amount
Was the amount wagered representative of the normal wager amount for that player or was the Amount exagerrated in order to take advantage of the bad line?
3rd Wager History
Is the player and everyday player or simply someone who comes in and only makes a wager on an obvious mistake?
4th Past Offenses
Has this player ever been warned previously about the ' bad line' policy?
5th IP Information
Is there anything strange in regards to the information the player registered and the IP address being used? Can it be assumed that multple players colluded to bypass wager limits or maximize the mistake to their benefit?

As I mentioned before there were 5 Accounts who wagered on the incorrect line and I still honored their wager and paid them in full. Each of those 5 accounts had previously wagered on a Matchup Sport. Each of those 5 players wagered an amount on this Matchup that was representative of their average wager. Each of those accounts plays consistently on any number of sports and wager types. None of those 5 players had ever been warned in the past in regards to betting into a 'bad line'. Every account had an IP address that was representative of the account information they registered when opening the account and no collusion could be assumed.

Here is why the other Four Accounts were flagged including 'Areef':
All four accounts were very sporadic players. Every wager made up until that point was only made on lines that were weak or there was considerable value. These players were 'shoppers' who used betCBS only when a line had value. Between the four Accounts they did not even have twenty total wagers and the average wager amount was much less than the $1000 that each account bet on this single Matchup. Although all four players never had bet an incorrect line previously so they never received warning. Two of the accounts including 'Areef' were from the very same state and had similar IP's.
(Important to note here inregards to these 4 players. We never closed their accounts even though they were 'shoppers' because I do not discourage that type of action. betCBS does not mind if players use us to scalp or middle. If a player has an acount and I am using +250 on a game and the player can lay -240 at another shop than I welcome that type of action. The problem only arises when those same players come in and blatantly take advantage of an error as is the case in question.)
As we followed up further on the four accounts in question we decided to focus mainly on the two Accounts that were from the same state. The other two accounts including the one from Italy wagered at different times and the IP addresses were completely different. Investigating the two accounts in question further we realized from Internet Traffic Reports that 'Areef' and the account he colluded with were using what is called a 'spider program' in order to find discrepancies in the lines. The system runs automatically and pulls lines from many different books to pinpoint scalps or major differences in the lines. I do not throw out players who use these types of programs but it does lend support to the fact that the line was off and that is the reason why 'Areef' was betting into the line. Another important thing to mention that both bets made by 'Areef' and his other account were made minutes apart and both were made for $1000.
So here is what we have in summary:
Nine Wagers made on an incorrect Tennis Line all on the dog @ +605.
Five of the Nine Accounts were paid in full by betCBS. These accounts were all Paid in Full because none of the accounts colluded and none of the accounts exceeded their wager limit.
Two of the Four remaining accounts were deemed seperate cases and the remaining two colluded together using a 'spider program' to further take advantage of an obvious bad line.
Of the Four Accounts in question we credited each account for a $500 wager @ +300 and sent emails to all warning them that in the future betting into an obvious bad line would result in a no action bet and a cancellation of their account.
After further review I feel the two seperate cases may have been handled to severly. I will send emails to both tomorrow and credit each one of them with the +605 bet at their average wager amount.
Areef and the account he colluded with will recieve nothing more than the $1500 I have already credited them in their accounts. If they wish to remain players they are more than welcome. They may use their 'spider program' to continue to use betCBS as a scalp. However, if they do bet into an incorrect line in the future their wagers will be cancelled. I think they are professional enough to understand what is the difference between a correct and incorrect line.
I am sure Areef will continue to argue this point and in the future will bring other books to the forefront in order to attempt to extort them into giving away money. I hope other books will stand against this type of behavior and any book interested in information on Areef and his 'spider program' can email me dave@betcbs.com
In conclusion to this whole fiasco I hope that the members of the Prescription will keep an open mind when deciding how you think this situation was handled.
As I mentioned before it is a lose-lose situation. Each account has to be handled seperately and the best possible decision has to be made after reviewing all the circumstances. We paid out a considerable amount of money on a mistake. I take responsibility for the mistake but understand it is a cost of doing business.
The main reason I came in today to defend the arguement is because we do have a large number of good players including Krackman and other Prescription members who have always praised us in the past. I appreciate that praise and hope they will continue to do so in the future.
These players who have been with us a long time undertsand that we do not chase wiseguys. We do not chase scalpers. We do not chase professional players. We may not be the ideal out for a professional player but we respect our pro's and they know they always get paid.
Areef is not a line mover or even a recreational player. He is someone who bets an incorrect line and then feels he can use the forum as his tool to try to extort a god book into changing their policies.
Just to be clear:
If you have an account at betCBS and you play the moves you will always be PAID.
If you have an account at betCBS and you scalp you will always be PAID.
If you have an account at betCBS and you play for recreation you will always be PAID.

If you have an account at betCBS and you sit online and wait for incorrect lines you will be warned the first time and then your account will be closed.

I work too hard to create great bonus promotions like our 5% back weekly to give away the store to a guy who uses a 'spider program' to bet an incorrect line and then cries about it on the forums.
I am sorry I could not come in sooner to explain why I made the decision but I wanted to be sure of all the facts before posting. I hope I did not come off too strong.

For some reason I have developed a reputation as being a 'hot head' with a few people. If this is the case I apologize. I enjoy talking to players and I enjoy working hard to stay compettitve with the bigger books.

After all this is said and done I hope the players will still respect betCBS. We worked hard and will continue to work hard in the future to be fair and honest.

As always I will take all emails and respond individually to either moderators or players.

Thanks for your time

Dave Johnson
betCBS.com


[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on June 29, 2003 at 06:37 PM.]
 

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"Of the Four Accounts in question we credited each account for a $500 wager @ +300 and sent emails to all warning them that in the future betting into an obvious bad line would result in a no action bet and a cancellation of their account." - Dave Johnson

Bad move by CBS/Dave
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It is scary when a book decides what amount is a player's normal bet!!!

Dave, if you're going to pay him -- PAY THE FULL AMOUNT OF HIS BET.

Either that or do not pay him at all...
 

I GRIN WHEN I WIN
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MCIRISH YOUR PAID FOR YOUR OPINIONS ARE YOU BUYING THIS SH-T WHAT HAPPENED TO ONCE A BET IS PLACED IT IS A BET.LETS HERE IT MCIRISH I ALREADY KNOW YOU WILL SIDE WITH DAVE AND CBS BECAUSE YOU NEVER MET A SPORTSBOOK YOU DIDNT LIKE FOR A 50 DOLLAR PARLAY.DO YOU THINK ARAFAT SHOULD BE PAID IN FULL MCIRISH THIS IS THE QUESTION WE KNOW WHAT DAVE SAID LETS HERE YOU VIEW
 

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Patrick-
Could you please edit your initial post for this new thread to have a link to the original thread?
Kind of hard for someone to follow a story that starts with DJ's response, without a link to the original complaint.
 

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Good idea Java, taken care of.

Beaner - depends how big of a match play I get, I don't make decisions until that happens.
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Another Day, Another Dollar
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If it were my book, I would have paid the player +605 and ask him to leave.

If some were paid @ +605, then all should have been paid at +605.

Progy assistance or not.

Telling the player that others were paid but I did not pay him would make me feel like I were insulting him & embarrass me.

JMO
 

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Not good enough CBS, you are going to lose many many accounts now.

People will always doubt your book now if they win big on a game you will void it.

You should of paid him and full and then threw him out.

Bad Move
 

I GRIN WHEN I WIN
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MCIRISH WHAT KIND OF AN ANSWER IS THAT DO YOU THINK THIS RICH ARAB AREEF SHOULD GET ALL HIS RUBALS YES OR NO MCIRISH.PERSONALLY I THINK AREEF SHOULD BE PAID IN FULL DAVE SAID THEY NOTICED THE MISTAKE AND STILL WATCHED THE MATCH WHY COULDNT THEY HAVE SENT AREEF AN E-MAIL AND TELL HIM WHAT THERE PLAN WAS BEFORE THE MATCH STARTED.WHY DOES THE PLAYER ALWAYS PAY FOR THE SPORTSBOOKS MISTAKES HUH MCIRISH DO WE EVER WIN IN THESE OFFSHORE DISPUTES ITS ONE SIDED AND THE SPORTSBOOK ALWAYS WINS BECAUSE THEY ARE HOLDING OUR MONEY RIGHT LENNY BOY
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For my 2 cents worth. It's obvious the player took a shot, but a big dog +300 +400 or whatever, isn't supposed to win.

If CBS was taking action +605, I wonder about the guy that laid -805..

Anyways, this situation is not quite so clear cut as a bad football line -3 1/2 being marked up to -13 1/2 or -23 1/2 etc.

I think CBS should pay the bets off, and adjust the price to a correct line of say -400 or wherever Pinny was, and for the full limit.

If after that they want to keep him on call in basis only or toss him, well that's their choice.

BAD LINES ARE COSTLY MISTAKES, AND NOBODY gains when these mistakes happen, but the player didn't put the line up and could have easily lost their bets here.

It's not like the error was making the fav the dog, just a pricing error.

To call the player a piece of shit wouldn't be wrong here either, because it's preety obvious they're semi pros / scalpers and saw big value and took a shot.

Personally, I'd kick the bums out, because in the long run, trying to get an earn back on this beat, will mean you're always watching over your shoulder.

CBS, you're much better off without this trash in your store. Over the years, you've earned a good rep, so keep it...
 

I GRIN WHEN I WIN
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JOEY WHO THE F-CK ARE YOU TO CALL A GUY TRASH.THE REAL TRASH IS OFFSHORE THEY MADE THE LINE THEY ARE WELCHERS IN MY BOOK AND IF THEY LIVED IN SOUTH BOSTON THEY WOULD BE LOOKING OVER THERE SHOULDER 24 HOURS A DAY.IF YOU BOOK A BAD LINE PAY I ONCE HEARD SAY A CERTAIN OWNER PAYS ALL BETS PERIOD ARE YOU SAYING CBS SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE TRASH AS YOU LIKE TO CALL HARD WORKING GUYS JOEY WHO SEND THERE MONEY TO THE LOWEST FORM OF LIVES OFFSHORE.I DONT LIKE YOU CALLING A GUY TRASH JOEY AREEF MIGHT BE A HARD WORKING GUY WHO REALLY NEEDS THE MONEY SO WATCH WHAT YOU SAY I THINK YOUR THE TRASH NOT THE PLAYER
 

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BeanBrain:

The guy bet this event at CB because they had a substantially bad line. That's called taking a shot.

I said, CB should pay the guy off, at a fair price say +400 and then make their minds up how they want to deal with him in the future, or if they want to deal with him at all.

Nobody needs customers who only buy stuff in your store when a clerk makes a pricing error.
That's a TRASH customer.

So BeanBrain, if the shoe fits wear it, if not don't.

AND I MEAN SUBSTANTIALLY OFF IN THE LINES, I DON'T MEAN -3 / -4,, I'm talking about -3 being listed as -13, or -9 being listed as +9, as an obvious bad line, and if the player has a history of trying to steal a bad line.

Now if you can't get this point BeanBrain, then you just continue to live off your old lady's welfare and wait for those Puerto Ricans to start moving into your block. You'll love the music on Saturday Nights.
 

I GRIN WHEN I WIN
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JOEY IF AREEF IS TRASH WHAT DO YOU CALL A SPORTSBOOK WHO ACCEPTS A BET 15 MINUTES AFTER A GAME STARTS DOESNT IT WORK BOTH WAYS BUDDY
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WHY DOES A PLAYER ALWAYS LOSE IN A DISPUTE OFFSHORE JOEY HAS A PLAYER EVER HAD A BAD BET OR LINE IN HIS FAVOR THIS IS BULLSHIT THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS.WHERE IS THE REGULATION OFFSHORE WHO IS WATCHING THE REAL CRIMINALS THE SPORTSBOOKS.THE PLAYER ALWAYS LOSES ITS UNBELIEVABLE BRING BACK MARK DEL THE ONLY HONEST GUY OFFSHORE I ONCE BET A GAME AND THERE WAS A PITCHING CHANGE HE E-MAILED ME AND SAID NO BET PERIOD HE DIDNT COME BACK AFTER THE GAME AND TELL ME I LOST BECAUSE I GET WHOEVER REPLACES THE STARTER AND AT THOSE ODDS.I HAVE BEEN GAMBLING FOR 25 YEARS AND I HAVE NEVER HEARD SO MUCH BULLSHIT THAT GOES ON OFFSHORE WHY DONT THESE SPORTSBOOK HIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE QUALIFIED INSTEAD OF A BUNCH OF BANANA PICKERS FROM COSTA RICA
 

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Bean,

Why DO you play offshore? Aren't there any locals in Boston? I mean, it's a big town so why do you keep f*cking with the offshore guys? I'm sure the locals in Boston will let you try to get down 15 minutes after a game starts, no problem.
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I never heard a local say this was a bad line!!!

Offshore bookmaking is made up of inexperienced guys that are now trying to be corporate.

They are taking a turn for the worse.

Get used to books stealing boys because bookmakers now are the new generation type.

I advise you guys to go back to betting locals which have good lines and are not clone factories like most offshore books are..
 

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bean is an oldfriend of mine max, so i dont want you to give him any shit.
 

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I believe this guy should have been paid in full and then kick him out. How could they pay 5 other players and not pay him? BetCbs didn't memtion this guy was warned before for betting bad lines so why not pay him as you did the other 5.

According to Betcbs, if a player bets on a bad line he is warned and if it happens again, his account is suspended. However, quoting from their statement "If they wish to remain players they are more than welcome" shows clearly that this guy was never given a prior warning. What's the difference between this guy and the other 5 players?

Dave, would you have given back this guy his money if the bet had lost or calculated the bet at +300 and give him back the rest?
 

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Jack,

You need to get some "new" friends. Or at least ones the realize when somethings dead.
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brutal decision
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.
i've always said to people who lost, you knew the stakes when you got in. that said i don't believe there resolution is accetable and you should be paid pinnacle's line.

if you loose a bet pay it.
if you win a bet you should be paid.

if you make a big bet others get paid for the same play but you don't. doesnt make sense to me

marsububu.gif
very sad
 

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Why Dave Johnson's post is inconsistent:
1) Dave admits that the +605 line was available since 9:45pm
the previous night AND that a line manager was there the
whole time. So, of the nine bets he got, he is honoring 5.
The other 4, bets he is breaking up into two groups of 2
and saying one group is a separate case from Areef.
(Notice the backing off of the rumor they put in
bettorspub and here that Areef had 4 accounts, without
any apology to Areef).
2) He said the other 5 accounts also got paid, because they
didn't exceed their wager limits. Areef didn't exceed
his limit either. The limit on Tennis was $1000, and
that is what Areef bet.
3) How can Dave claim a line that was available for 8-9 hours
is a BAD LINE, if a line manager was available the whole time?
How long does a line have to be up for it to be THE line?
According to Dave's story, Areef was at the tail end of the
8+ hours? So, if Areef had made the bet the night before, and
mentioned it to a buddy 8 hours later, would Casablanca have
still honored both bets? What if there is an injury
report overnight? What if Areef bet $120 each hour for
all 8 hours?
4) If Casablanca really knew about the problem at the time of the
bet, why was it graded a winner? Why not hold off grading while
you investigate? Seems more likely that they didn't know anything
about it until they noticed a big loss for the day, then they had
to scramble to figure out why.
5) He claims that Areef used a spider program and
"I do not throw out players who use these types of programs".
He invites them to continue to use spider program and scalp.
But, he complains that the Areef has bet weak numbers in the past
(Duh),
and then uses Areef's past history of betting weak number as
an excuse to not pay the full amount on the bet.
6) BTW, Dave, how is the Spider program YOU started building
2 months ago working out for you? Could this be your reason
for declaring spiders okay (for when you get caught)?
7) If he paid all the other players, how is honoring Areef's bet
"giving away the store"? How small is the store?
Sounds to me like Areef is being punished for speaking out.
8) The IP address argument is VERY weak. Areef admitted he told a
buddy about the number. Gosh, two guys in the same state that
know each other and discussed a play. What are the odds?
Gee, could they have the same ISP (maybe same cable company)?
9) If Dave is really going to declare these two as one account,
then it should be one max bet of $1000 for the +605 he is
honoring. Because, if Areef didn't call his friend, there
would only be one bet, and Areef would have gotten grouped
with the 5 that Casablanca is honoring. (I find the
'same account' argument weak, but if true, then $6050
to one account would be fair amount, not $1500 each.)
10) This "average bet" argument is also nonsense. What is the guy's
previous MAX bet, not average bet? Don't forget, Dave Johnson
tried lying to Areef earlier, claiming the limit on Tennis was
really $200.
11) Hot head is an understatement. Ranting and raving lunatic is
the more common description. The reputation is well earned.
 

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