Religion the cause of all (most) wars?

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I've argued with numerous donks in here that try to argue that religion has been the basis for most of the world's violence and wars. The people holding that
position are ignorant, not well-read, and basically low-information lemmings the slurp down the pablum that idiot blowhards like Richard Dawkins feeds them.

Here is a new scholarly work, getting rave reviews (even by skeptic and secular audiences) which disproves and dispels the notion that religion is the cause for
the world's ills.

A review by libera/"progressive" salon.com:


[h=1]Richard Dawkins is wrong: Religion is not inherently violent[/h] [h=2]Bestselling author Karen Armstrong's panoramic survey of the history of faith and war disproves an atheist canard[/h]
Richard Dawkins (Credit: Reuters/Chris Keane/Photo montage by Salon)
If there’s a single historical moment that captures what the author Karen Armstrong wants to convey in her new book, “Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence,” it’s the Christmas-Day coronation of Charlemagne in 800. “Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne ‘Holy Roman Emperor’ in the Basilica of St. Peter,” she writes. “The congregation acclaimed him as ‘Augustus’ and Leo prostrated himself at Charlemagne’s feet.” If you want to blame the human race’s long, ghastly history of bloodshed on religion, Armstrong argues, be aware that faith is more often the servant than the master of politics.
“Fields of Blood” is panoramic work, even at a judicious 400 pages (excluding notes). It takes in the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, India and China before settling down for a good long look at the Abrahamic traditions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, with the occasional side trip back to India when sectarian clashes heat up there. Throughout, Armstrong deploys the confident, even-handed and congenial voice that made “A History of God” (1993) and “The Battle for God” (2000) bestsellers. And her points are eminently reasonable. Religion, she insists, takes many different forms and “to claim that it has a single, unchanging and inherently violent essence is not accurate. Identical religious beliefs and practices have inspired diametrically opposed courses of action.”
As enjoyable and informative as “Fields of Blood” is, it’s a great deal of scholarship to expend on supporting an observation that seems pretty obvious. Is there anyone who actually believes that religion has been the cause of all the major wars in history? Apparently yes, as Armstrong reports having heard versions of this statement from “American commentators and psychiatrists, London tax drivers and Oxford academics.” Yet the claim is so easily refuted by a quick look at the two World Wars — not to mention, say, the Russian Revolution, the American Civil War and the Mongol Invasions of the 13th and 14th century — that you have to wonder if the people making it actually care about its historical accuracy.


The closest Armstrong comes to naming an advocate of the “all wars are about religion” line is when she quotes biologist, author and stridently public atheist Richard Dawkins in her chapter on terrorism. “Only religious faith is a strong enough force to motivate such utter madness in otherwise sane and decent people,” Dawkins wrote in “The God Delusion.” But, again, as Armstrong briskly notes, the suicide bombing was invented by the Tamil Tigers, a secularist group, and for many years they held the record for committing such acts. Furthermore (although Armstrong doesn’t bring this up herself), it wasn’t religion that led Rwanda’s Hutus to hack to death nearly 1 million of their fellow citizens, including neighbors of decades, in perhaps the most insane and indecent homicidal eruption of the past half-century.
At this point in time — with his sweeping, unsubstantiated and historically ill-informed polemics — Dawkins has dug his own intellectual grave. Still, the question remains: How much of the planet’s history of can be laid at the feet of religion? For the vast majority of human existence, Armstrong argues, “religion” could not be separated from politics or economics or any other social institution; the idea of doing so would literally have made no sense to the members of any pre-Enlightenment culture. “Until the modern period,” Armstrong writes, “religion permeated all aspects of life, including politics and warfare, not because ambitious churchmen had ‘mixed up’ two essentially distinct activities, but because people wanted to endow everything they did with significance. Every state ideology was religious … Until the American and French Revolutions, there were no ‘secular’ societies.”
But there was power and wealth, and the way Armstrong tells it, just about every historical instance of armed conflict was rooted in both, with religion mostly serving as a legitimizing veneer or justification. In the panoramic view offered by “Fields of Blood,” faith is an undulating force, like the tide, sometimes rushing toward power and sometimes pulling away in moral horror.
Take the Crusades and the period leading up to them in Europe. Pope Leo II knelt before Charlemagne because only a strong military leader could raise and control enough armed men to defend the Church from invading barbarians. In time, the region later known as France would be harried by these knights, minor nobles who considered plunder the only honorable income source for members of their class. Popular opposition to the depredations of the aristocracy and the corruption of their clerical allies pointed out how un-Christian their behavior was. Reformers established “the Peace of God,” a movement that recast the ideal knight as “a soldier of Christ” sworn to defend the poor and weak. So chalk one up for religion as a force for good there.
The first successful call for a crusade to the Holy Land came from Pope Urban II, who recognized it as an excellent way to siphon off the warlike energy of otherwise unoccupied knights and soldiers. But the Crusades also served him a means of reasserting the power of the Church to defend Christendom at a time when he was wrestling with the Holy Roman Emperor for dominance. Many of the crusaders were fired with religious fervor, but that didn’t keep them from pillaging and slaughtering at will, and others were basically in it for the loot and the killing. The barbarism with which the First Crusade took Jerusalem appalled the cosmopolitan Muslims who had previously occupied the city. As they saw it, the Europeans had trampled all civilized standards of warfare because they “did not spare the elderly, the women or the sick.” When Saladin retook the city in 1187, he shamed the Christians by showing far greater mercy than they had — because a Christian talked him into it.
Similarly, the Shiites’ disillusionment with early struggles for leadership in the Muslim world led them to forswear politics and other worldly concerns. To be holy was to be withdrawn from such things. It took the brutal 20th-century dictatorship of Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi — and the hypocritical American government that supported him — to persuade the Ayatollah Khomenini to argue that Iran should be rule by the ulema, or Muslim scholars. The proposal, Armstrong writes, “was shocking to most Shiites,” and was also strongly influenced by “Third World intellectuals who defied global structural violence” perpetrated by Western powers, whether as liberation theologists in Latin America or Marxists in Asia. It was a “fundamentalism” infused with modern ideas and demands.
By “structural violence,” Armstrong means the force by which any developed, and therefore stratified, society imposes social, economic and political inequality. This is the “dilemma of civilization, which cannot exist without … structural and military violence,” the former to keep the underclasses in line and the latter to defend against outsiders who come after its resources. Religion can often be used to support these two types of violence, but it also offers a retreat, sanctuary or utopian alternative to those who are sickened by them. The genius of the Shiites faith is, “the tragic perception that it is impossible fully to implement the ideals of religion in the inescapably violent realm of politics”
Armstrong sees the desires, actions and beliefs of most civilizations as being ultimately shaped and driven by political and economic needs. It was industrialization and the demands of capitalism that inaugurated the ideal of a secular society, first in the United States and later in Europe. But secularism cannot, in Armstrong’s mind, supply the average person with the sort of meaning and transcendence found in religion. It replaced faith with nationalism — sometimes literally, as during the French Revolution, when Catholic churches were purged and filled with idols representing the new republic. But while Armstrong claims that “all the world’s great religious traditions share as one of their most essential tenets the imperative of treating others as one would wish to be treated oneself,” nationalism, she says, can’t encompass the notion of a larger brotherhood of man.
Although she doesn’t come right out and say so, Armstrong is implying that the mass-scale bloodbaths of the 20th century were at least in part facilitated by this weakness in secular nationalism. Far from causing the worst wars, religion in a way prevented them, until secularism came along to lose the really big dogs of war. Even what we like think of as the quintessential form of modern religious fanaticism, militant Islam, is often just nationalism in the sheep’s clothing of faith.
Without faith-inspired compassion and the ability to see all human life as sacred, Armstrong feels, it’s too easy for secular societies to treat minorities and outsiders as insignificant and disposable. But as Armstrong’s own history lesson demonstrates, even when principled believers objected to the brutal behavior of their co-religionists — for example, during the European conquest of America or the exploitation of the peasants and poor just about everywhere at any time — they seldom had much effect. Self-interest, often rankly hypocritical, seems to win out every time.
Nationalism isn’t the only ideal secularists believe in, either. It’s perfectly possible to revere human life and the human spirit without being urged to by supernatural forces; that’s called humanism, and it too defies the clannish passions of nationalism. It also has a more considered understanding of religion itself, recognizing it as an element of every human society, one that has the capacity to inspire great generosity and courage, but also the propensity to endorse great evil. That’s an awareness that most religions can’t entertain about themselves. If Armstrong wants to argue that what we often think of as religious extremism is in fact nationalism in disguise, then couldn’t the great pluralistic civilizations of the pre-secular era — the Mogul and Roman Empires at their best, for example — be viewed as humanistic at heart?
These are all provocative and intriguing questions, but it’s hard to imagine militantly atheistic people of Dawkins’ ilk ever being willing to contemplate them. Anyone dumb enough to claim that religion lies at the root of all wars has already demonstrated a willful indifference to and ignorance of history. More history, real history, is unlikely to change their minds because, as more than one observer has noted, they tend to be just as fanatical as the fanatics they rail against. Ironically, it’s the open-minded, those who least need “Fields of Blood,” who are most likely to read it.

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/26/richard_dawkins_is_wrong_religion_is_not_inherently_violent/

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307957047/


[h=2]Editorial Reviews[/h] [h=3]Review[/h] “A timely work . . . This passionately argued book is certain to provoke heated debate against the background of the Isis atrocities and many other acts of violence perpetrated around the world today in the name of religion.”
–John Cornwell, Financial Times

“Detailed and often riveting . . . a mighty offering . . . Armstrong can be relied on to have done her homework and she has the anthropologist’s respect for the ‘otherness’ of other cultures . . . [Her] oeuvre is extensive, bringing a rare mix of cool-headed scholarship and impassioned concern for humanity to bear on the vexed topic of religion . . . [And she] is nothing if not democratic in her exposition.”
–Salley Vickers, The Guardian (UK)

“Eloquent and empathetic, which is rare, and impartial, which is rarer . . . [Armstrong] ranges across the great empires and leading faiths of the world. Fields of Blood is never less than absorbing and most of the time as convincing as it is lucid and robust . . . [This] wonderful book certainly cleanses the mind. It may even do a little repair work on the heart.”
–Ferdinand Mount, The Spectator (UK)

“Characteristically eloquent and instructive . . . Armstrong’s survey of four millennia of organized violence with religious overtones . . . aspires to put historical flesh on the bare bones of [the facts] . . . Modern society “has made a scapegoat of faith”, thereby obscuring and thus partly exonerating the far more massive crimes of modern secular states and armies, while also defaming the majority of religious believers who work for tolerance, justice and peace by nonviolent means . . . We are all awash in “fields of blood”. [This] engaging new book makes that case eloquently.”
–Scott Appleby, The Tablet (UK)

“From Gilgamesh to bin Laden, [Armstrong covers] almost five millennia of human experience . . . Supplying the context of what may look like religiously motivated episodes of violence, in order to show that religion as such was not the prime cause . . . She is no doubt right to say that the aggression of a modern jihadist does not represent some timeless essence of religion, and that other political, economic and cultural factors loom large in the stories of how and why individuals become radicalized.”
–Noel Malcolm, The Telegraph (UK)

“Fluent and elegant, never quite long enough . . . as much about the nature of warfare as it is about faith . . . [Armstrong] is taking issue with a cliché, the routine claim that religion, advertising itself as humanity’s finest expression, has been responsible for most of the woes of the species . . . The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Wars of Religion, even modern “jihadi” terrorism: each is investigated . . . The picture is bleak, but certainly accurate . . . Exploitation and oppression continue . . . but these provide a challenge for the godly and the godless alike. The proposition, like the book, is noble.”
–Ian Bell, The Sunday Herald (Scotland)

“A well-written historical summary of what have traditionally been viewed as “religious” wars, showing convincingly that in pretty much all cases it was not so much religion as it was political issues that fueled the conflict.”
–Augustine J. Curley, Library Journal (starred review)

“Provocative and supremely readable . . . the comparative nature of [Armstrong’s] inquiry is refreshing . . . Bracing as ever, [she] sweeps through religious history around the globe and over 4,000 years to explain the yoking of religion and violence and to elucidate the ways in which religion has also been used to counter violence.”
Publishers Weekly (starred review)

“Epic in scale . . . a comprehensive and erudite study of the history of violence in relation to religion . . . Armstrong leads readers patiently through history . . . her writing is clear and descriptive, her approach balanced and scholarly . . . An intriguing read, useful resource and definitive voice in defense of the divine in human culture.”
Kirkus Reviews (starred review)

“Armstrong again impresses with the breadth of her knowledge and the skill with which she conveys it to us.”
–Ray Olson, Booklist (starred review)

[h=3]About the Author[/h] Karen Armstrong is the author of numerous books on religion, including The Case for God, A History of God, The Battle for God, Holy War, Islam, Buddha, and The Great Transformation, as well as a memoir, The Spiral Staircase. Her work has been translated into forty-five languages. In 2008 she was awarded the TED Prize and began working with TED on the Charter for Compassion, created online by the general public, crafted by leading thinkers in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. It was launched globally in the fall of 2009. Also in 2008, she was awarded the Franklin D. Roosevelt Four Freedoms Medal. In 2013, she received the British Academy’s inaugural Nayef Al-Rodhan Prize for Transcultural Understanding.
 
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"These are all provocative and intriguing questions, but it’s hard to imagine militantly atheistic people of Dawkins’ ilk ever being willing to contemplate them. Anyone dumb enough to claim that religion lies at the root of all wars has already demonstrated a willful indifference to and ignorance of history. More history, real history, is unlikely to change their minds because, as more than one observer has noted, they tend to be just as fanatical as the fanatics they rail against. Ironically, it’s the open-minded, those who least need “Fields of Blood,” who are most likely to read it."
 
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"At this point in time — with his sweeping, unsubstantiated and historically ill-informed polemics — Dawkins has dug his own intellectual grave."
 

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I've argued with numerous donks in here that try to argue that religion has been the basis for most of the world's violence and wars. The people holding that
position are ignorant, not well-read, and basically low-information lemmings the slurp down the pablum that idiot blowhards like Richard Dawkins feeds them.

Here is a new scholarly work, getting rave reviews

i see you've been studying at the AkPed school of debate. bravo


donks
ignorant
not well-read
low information lemmings
blowhards

then point to a scholarly work?

this is funny shit...
 
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i see you've been studying at the AkPed school of debate. bravo


donks
ignorant
not well-read
low information lemmings
blowhards

then point to a scholarly work?

this is funny shit...

I'm glad that my commentary amuses you.
 

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Oil
 

I'm from the government and I'm here to help
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i know you don't take well to criticism but even you have to admit your post is straight out of Lucy's playbook

so, yeah, it's got me giggling

much appreciated...hadn't had my daily laugh in yet but i can now check that box

(by the way, you're missing the word "uneducated"...you need that one to have a perfect aktard argument)
 
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i know you don't take well to criticism but even you have to admit your post is straight out of Lucy's playbook

so, yeah, it's got me giggling

much appreciated...hadn't had my daily laugh in yet but i can now check that box

(by the way, you're missing the word "uneducated"...you need that one to have a perfect aktard argument)

You're a smart guy, with a good sense of humor. I don't mind you criticizing me, most of the time it's probably spot on.

Except for when you call me a racist when I am critical of Islamism. heh heh
 

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History repeating itself

Most Americans are unaware of the fact that over two hundred years ago, the United States had declared war on Islam, and Thomas Jefferson led the charge!

At the height of the eighteenth century, Muslim pirates were the terror of the Mediterranean and a large area of the North Atlantic. They attacked every ship in sight, and held the crews for exorbitant ransoms. Those taken hostage were subjected to barbaric treatment and wrote heart breaking letters home, begging their government and family members to pay whatever their Mohammedan captors demanded. These extortionists of the high seas represented the Islamic nations of Tripoli, Tunis, Morocco, and Algiers collectively referred to as the Barbary Coast and presented a dangerous and unprovoked threat to the new American Republic.

Before the Revolutionary War, U.S. Merchant ships had been under the protection of Great Britain. When the U.S. Declared its independence and entered into war, the ships of the United States were protected by France. However, once the war was won, America had to protect its own fleets. Thus, the birth of the U.S. Navy. Beginning in1784, seventeen years before he would become president, Thomas Jefferson became Americas Minister to France. That same year, the U.S. Congress sought to appease its Muslim adversaries by following in the footsteps of European nations who paid bribes to the Barbary States, rather than engaging them in war. In July of 1785, Algerian pirates captured American ships, and the Dey of Algiers demanded an unheard-of ransom of $60,000. It was a plain and simple case of extortion, and Thomas Jefferson was vehemently opposed to any further payments. Instead, he proposed to Congress the formation of a coalition of allied nations who together could force the Islamic states into peace. A disinterested Congress decided to pay the ransom.

In 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripolis ambassador to Great Britain to ask by what right his nation attacked American ships and enslaved American citizens, and why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts The two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."

Despite this stunning admission of premeditated violence on non-Muslim nations, as well as the objections of many notable American leaders, including George Washington, who warned that caving in was both wrong and would only further embolden the enemy, for the following fifteen years, the American government paid the Muslims millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute amounted to over twenty percent of the United States government annual revenues in 1800.

Jefferson was disgusted. Shortly after his being sworn in as the third President of the United States in 1801, the Pasha of Tripoli sent him a note demanding the immediate payment of $225,000 plus $25,000 a year for every year forthcoming. That changed everything.

Jefferson let the Pasha know, in no uncertain terms, what he could do with his demand. The Pasha responded by cutting down the flagpole at the American consulate and declared war on the United States. Tunis, Morocco, and Algiers immediately followed suit. Jefferson, until now, had been against America raising a naval force for anything beyond coastal defense, but having watched his nation be cowed by Islamic thuggery for long enough, decided that is was finally time to meet force with force.

He dispatched a squadron of frigates to the Mediterranean and taught the Muslim nations of the Barbary Coast a lesson he hoped they would never forget. Congress authorized Jefferson to empower U.S. Ships to seize all vessels and goods of the Pasha of Tripoli and to cause to be done all other acts of precaution or hostility as the state of war would justify.

When Algiers and Tunis, who were both accustomed to American cowardice and acquiescence, saw the newly independent United States had both the will and the might to strike back, they quickly abandoned their allegiance to Tripoli. The war with Tripoli lasted for four more years, and raged up again in 1815. The bravery of the U.S. Marine Corps in these wars led to the line to the shores of Tripoli in the Marine Hymn, and they would forever be known as leathernecks for the leather collars of their uniforms, designed to prevent their heads from being cut off by the Muslim scimitars when boarding enemy ships.

Islam, and what its Barbary followers justified doing in the name of their prophet and their god, disturbed Jefferson quite deeply. America had a tradition of religious tolerance, the fact that Jefferson, himself, had co-authored the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, but fundamentalist Islam was like no other religion the world had ever seen. A religion based on supremacism, whose holy book not only condoned but mandated violence against unbelievers was unacceptable to him. His greatest fear was that someday this brand of Islam would return and pose an even greater threat to the United States.

This should bother every American. That the Islams have brought about women-only classes and swimming times at taxpayer-funded universities and public pools; that Christians, Jews, and Hindus have been banned from serving on juries where Muslim defendants are being judged, Piggy banks and Porky Pig tissue dispensers have been banned from workplaces because they offend Islamist sensibilities. Ice cream has been discontinued at certain Burger King locations because the picture on the wrapper looks similar to the Arabic script for Allah, public schools are pulling pork from their menus, on and on in the news papers?.

Its death by a thousand cuts, or inch-by-inch as some refer to it, and most Americans have no idea that this battle is being waged every day across America. By not fighting back, by allowing groups to obfuscate what is really happening, and not insisting that the Islamists adapt to our own culture, the United States is cutting its own throat with a politically correct knife, and helping to further the Islamists agenda. Sadly, it appears that todays America would rather be politically correct than victorious.

Any doubts, just Google Thomas Jefferson vs the Muslim World.
 

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My 11th grade history teacher said most wars were started over money and pussy and he was a sharp guy.
 

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It's hard not to be racist towards Muslims

2lia0pu.jpg
 

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Statism has killed more, and started more wars than all the religions put together.
 

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