If someone has some sort of understanding of the legality of online gambling at this point it would be much appreciated. I know this has been discussed a lot but I still cannot seem to figure it out. Additionally, if anyone can sum up what the Patriot Act in a short paragraph it would be much appreciated. My final question is that if it is deemed to be illegal then wouldn't guys like Moneymaker and other online poker guys like this years winner be the easiest guys to nail if they wanted to crackdown? Poker has the same legality issues as sports wagering does it not?
Supposedly not, as some jurisdictions consider poker a game of skill, while at the same time they consider sportsbetting and casino play strictly luck or pure gambling(which is absurd).
This should be an interesting topic with many good responses from individuals that are way way more in the know on this subject then myself.
This should be an interesting topic with many good responses from individuals that are way way more in the know on this subject then myself.
Thanks fish. I hope so. Would love to get someone thoughts on what the patriot act is and at what risk a guy in Nebraska for instance is at by placing wagers online or calling an offshore book. I always was of the understanding that it was okay legally since transaction goes down there. Not sure if this is the case or not any longer.
in a nutshell the Patriot act gives the feds the power to do pretty much anything if terrorism is involved. Of course they are using this power to go after drugs, gambling and anything else they see fit.
they get away with:
no search warrant
illegal wiretaps
seizing bank accounts
arresting anyone at any time
it gives them the power to violate anyone's civil rights.
they get away with:
no search warrant
illegal wiretaps
seizing bank accounts
arresting anyone at any time
it gives them the power to violate anyone's civil rights.
I mentioned this about six months ago and will again today. Last year a friend of mine with wagering accounts at five different books was arrested but not charged. I will explain more on that in a second.
Someone basically lied to the state police and said he was a bookmaker so the state police got a search warrant and came to his door and handcuffed him and his wife to the couch as they went through everything. His wife said she never felt so violated. Here the both of them(middle class working people) were handcuffed to the couch never haven been arrested for anything in their lives.
They found of course nothing except that he had wagering accounts like all of us at Cris and Olympic. Now they hit him with a million questions for what he did not know the answers to. "what agents does he deal with or know?" and so on. Since he did not answer these questions with anything they were looking for they came to the conclusion he was a bookie and that OLY and CRIS meant he called in every night and was told what his customers bet and that must be what was on the papers.
So this cost him a ton in legal fees and basic aggravation but they have not formally charged him yet. He does not know if they will but suspects they might be building a case against him. It just goes to show you that in this country all you need to do is point a finger and accuse.
Imagine if you are a female in this country and have a old beef with a boyfriend and want to get him back. All you have to do is go down to the police department and say something like he raped me and forget it!
Someone basically lied to the state police and said he was a bookmaker so the state police got a search warrant and came to his door and handcuffed him and his wife to the couch as they went through everything. His wife said she never felt so violated. Here the both of them(middle class working people) were handcuffed to the couch never haven been arrested for anything in their lives.
They found of course nothing except that he had wagering accounts like all of us at Cris and Olympic. Now they hit him with a million questions for what he did not know the answers to. "what agents does he deal with or know?" and so on. Since he did not answer these questions with anything they were looking for they came to the conclusion he was a bookie and that OLY and CRIS meant he called in every night and was told what his customers bet and that must be what was on the papers.
So this cost him a ton in legal fees and basic aggravation but they have not formally charged him yet. He does not know if they will but suspects they might be building a case against him. It just goes to show you that in this country all you need to do is point a finger and accuse.
Imagine if you are a female in this country and have a old beef with a boyfriend and want to get him back. All you have to do is go down to the police department and say something like he raped me and forget it!
The patriot act is going to be a source of trouble for the common public for decades to come.....hopefully the Supreme Court justices will get some cases challenging this absurdity of the law and see the unconstitutionality behind it and strike it down....
Unbelieveable that it could be enacted without debate or discussion about its content and the effect on the American people.....that fact in itself should have been grounds for dismissal, that it wasn't properly introduced.
(Unconstitutionality.....speaking of that word...when did anyone last use a 19 letter word? I don't even think Phaedrus in all his wisdom uses 19 letter words...
)
Unbelieveable that it could be enacted without debate or discussion about its content and the effect on the American people.....that fact in itself should have been grounds for dismissal, that it wasn't properly introduced.
(Unconstitutionality.....speaking of that word...when did anyone last use a 19 letter word? I don't even think Phaedrus in all his wisdom uses 19 letter words...
Excellent questions royalfan. I think previous replies give a sense of the Patriot Act. It is a Draconian law that can be used to quell any dissent or opponent.
It is my understanding that online gaming is not illegal in the US, with the sole exception of Nevada, notwithstanding the comments that states attorneys general may make.
Regarding your comments on poker, I think it is true that online poker has a much better image as a wholesome activity than any other form of online "gambling". Consequently I think it would be a grevious error for the Feds to bring action against someone like Moneymaker. The legality of online gaming is murky and they might well lose, which would be a disaster for them. Also if they were to prove the activity illegal they might be able to confiscate his winnings, so it makes no sense to go after deep pockets. Finally such persecution of a fairly high profile public figure would stimulate informed public debate on the issue, which would be counterproductive for those who wish to control your entertainment of choice.
It is my understanding that online gaming is not illegal in the US, with the sole exception of Nevada, notwithstanding the comments that states attorneys general may make.
Regarding your comments on poker, I think it is true that online poker has a much better image as a wholesome activity than any other form of online "gambling". Consequently I think it would be a grevious error for the Feds to bring action against someone like Moneymaker. The legality of online gaming is murky and they might well lose, which would be a disaster for them. Also if they were to prove the activity illegal they might be able to confiscate his winnings, so it makes no sense to go after deep pockets. Finally such persecution of a fairly high profile public figure would stimulate informed public debate on the issue, which would be counterproductive for those who wish to control your entertainment of choice.
My 2 cents
Church and State. Gambling is not illegal if the moral lobby groups of the church say it is o.k. and the State can tax it. The offshore books operated by americans that are not reporting their world wide income to the IRS is the stress point. The online operations lisc in other jurisdictions operated by non americans are not illegal.
The crux used to be with the internet "the point of transaction" meaning are you placing a bet locally on your computer because you are hitting the button in your house or office OR are you placing a bet ona server in a foriegn country--- so far each state decides that. NY it is on your computer. The argument between state and federal prosecutors on who has the right to tax winnings or deduct losses on foriegn accounts controlled by americans is yet to be settled. The irony is that I can have a horse account in Las Vegas that I can phone in from Canada and if i make a withdrawal the state and federal take a piece int eh usa and in Canada (so i do most of it througha straw man account)
Basics on offshore, the american ran places owned (as in mindset) by americans can get you into trouble. The rip off places, who owns them, sorry guys --- Americans.
With IPv6 coming to the USA soon, the ability to track 100% of all transactions will be there. Right to your door step and your bank account.
Follow the money, that is how the feds decide how much they can seize and who they will piss off. The judge judges accordingly.
Patriot Act_-- another one of the initial laws that will eventually have so many precedence to water it down over time. The intent is good, the practive is invasive
k, rambling now, so will sign off
Church and State. Gambling is not illegal if the moral lobby groups of the church say it is o.k. and the State can tax it. The offshore books operated by americans that are not reporting their world wide income to the IRS is the stress point. The online operations lisc in other jurisdictions operated by non americans are not illegal.
The crux used to be with the internet "the point of transaction" meaning are you placing a bet locally on your computer because you are hitting the button in your house or office OR are you placing a bet ona server in a foriegn country--- so far each state decides that. NY it is on your computer. The argument between state and federal prosecutors on who has the right to tax winnings or deduct losses on foriegn accounts controlled by americans is yet to be settled. The irony is that I can have a horse account in Las Vegas that I can phone in from Canada and if i make a withdrawal the state and federal take a piece int eh usa and in Canada (so i do most of it througha straw man account)
Basics on offshore, the american ran places owned (as in mindset) by americans can get you into trouble. The rip off places, who owns them, sorry guys --- Americans.
With IPv6 coming to the USA soon, the ability to track 100% of all transactions will be there. Right to your door step and your bank account.
Follow the money, that is how the feds decide how much they can seize and who they will piss off. The judge judges accordingly.
Patriot Act_-- another one of the initial laws that will eventually have so many precedence to water it down over time. The intent is good, the practive is invasive
k, rambling now, so will sign off
The legality of online poker varies from state to state. Court decisions have basically limited the Wire Act to covering sports betting so offshore poker sites are probably safe for now, although the DOJ did withhold Party Poker's deposit with Discovery Networks for very dubious reasons that haven't been backed up by a court yet.
Bottom line is that the chances of someone getting in trouble for just betting or being a player are very slim. Not impossible, but extremely slim. Probably close to a million people have gambled in some way online or offshore since it began and how many have gotten in trouble? Sad story with Frankie's friend, but that surely isn't an issue with the laws but just overzealous police and prosecutors.
Bottom line is that the chances of someone getting in trouble for just betting or being a player are very slim. Not impossible, but extremely slim. Probably close to a million people have gambled in some way online or offshore since it began and how many have gotten in trouble? Sad story with Frankie's friend, but that surely isn't an issue with the laws but just overzealous police and prosecutors.
Paying taxes is not the issue. The religious right has these politicians in their pocket. They are against gambling unless its for the church of course, like bingo and casino night. On-line gambling has no lobby so the politicians can pacify the religious right by saying they got rid of internet gambling. or at least try anyway.
Wait for a few years guys. There are bingo machines going in that are dead ringers for casino slots. The "Class II" concept has gone from having electronic games that were mere bigger stakes bingo games played at faster pace to now having every major casino game placed on a game that is decided by using the idea of a bingo game number draw. These machines could eventually, depending on very specific local laws, end up in churches and anywhere else they offer standard bingo. Who would have ever thunk you could go play Wheel of Fortune slots at your local church???
Here's a couple of pertinent articles:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=12914
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=12103
Thank You
Dweeb
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=12914
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=12103
Thank You
Dweeb
great read Dweeb
Busted for Betting Online?
by I. Nelson Rose
Is gambling on the Internet legal? Some state and federal law enforcement officials declare flatly, “It’s all illegal.” Yet, with hundreds of websites taking billions of dollars in wagers each year, fewer than 25 people have ever been prosecuted for online gambling. Most were bookies who were also taking sports bets by telephone. A few were unusually foolish. For example, a Pennsylvania operator settled a criminal case by promising the attorney general of Missouri that he would stop taking bets from people in Missouri. He continued to take bets from Missouri, and ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor.
So, is Internet gambling legal for those of us who are not taking bets by phone or breaking agreements with prosecutors?
Everyone in the United States and Canada is subject to at least two sets of laws, federal and state/province — and an additional set of laws if they are on tribal land. There are also laws on the city and county level, but these are usually of no consequence, except to big operators who are openly taking bets in that city or county.
Federal governments are not usually concerned with gambling. They do care about organized crime. So, there are federal laws in the United States that make it a crime, under some circumstances, to take a bet if you are in the gaming business.
This means that players are not violating any federal laws by merely placing bets. Sen. Jon Kyl’s first draft of his proposed Internet Gambling Prohibition Act would have made betting a federal crime. But, the U.S. Department of Justice, remembering the bad old days when it had to enforce the earlier prohibition on alcohol, stated publicly that it did not want to go after bettors. So, today, no one is even proposing making it a federal crime to merely place a bet.
Internet operators, especially those who do not have licenses from foreign countries, may be violating U.S. federal laws by taking bets online. The major statute, the Wire Act, was passed by Congress 35 years ago to help states enforce their anti-bookmaking laws. The Wire Act applies only to individuals in the business of gambling who use a wire, like a phone line, that crosses a state line. Gambling businesses that conduct 100 percent of their activities inside a single state do not violate the Wire Act. There are other federal anti-gambling laws, but most involve committing felonies under state laws.
The major weakness of the Wire Act, besides the fact that it was written long before the Internet was invented, is that it was designed to go after illegal bookies. Betting on a sports event or horse race is clearly covered. But, a good argument can be made that lotteries and casinos do not fall under the Wire Act, even if they are conducted interstate or internationally.
But there are still laws of the states, provinces, and territories. Federal governments may be interested only in organized crime, but states are often interested in saving your souls. Every state has what is known as “police power.” This is the right to protect the health, safety, welfare, and morals of its citizens. Of course, one man’s moral outrage is another man’s hobby.
Still, every state makes most forms of gambling a crime. Almost half the states specifically make it a crime to place a bet. For example, in California, it is a crime to bet at a banking or percentage game outside of an Indian casino. It is also a crime to make, take, or even record a bet on a sports event or horse race, outside of a licensed track or off-track betting location.
No ethical lawyer would ever tell you to break the law, but I have not found one reported case, in the history of the United States and Canada, of a player being arrested for making a bet on the Internet.
This does not mean it is legal. But, your only real chance of being charged with a crime for betting online would come if you were involved with organized crime or did something real stupid, like going on TV and daring the police to arrest you.
Busted for Betting Online?
by I. Nelson Rose
Is gambling on the Internet legal? Some state and federal law enforcement officials declare flatly, “It’s all illegal.” Yet, with hundreds of websites taking billions of dollars in wagers each year, fewer than 25 people have ever been prosecuted for online gambling. Most were bookies who were also taking sports bets by telephone. A few were unusually foolish. For example, a Pennsylvania operator settled a criminal case by promising the attorney general of Missouri that he would stop taking bets from people in Missouri. He continued to take bets from Missouri, and ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor.
So, is Internet gambling legal for those of us who are not taking bets by phone or breaking agreements with prosecutors?
Everyone in the United States and Canada is subject to at least two sets of laws, federal and state/province — and an additional set of laws if they are on tribal land. There are also laws on the city and county level, but these are usually of no consequence, except to big operators who are openly taking bets in that city or county.
Federal governments are not usually concerned with gambling. They do care about organized crime. So, there are federal laws in the United States that make it a crime, under some circumstances, to take a bet if you are in the gaming business.
This means that players are not violating any federal laws by merely placing bets. Sen. Jon Kyl’s first draft of his proposed Internet Gambling Prohibition Act would have made betting a federal crime. But, the U.S. Department of Justice, remembering the bad old days when it had to enforce the earlier prohibition on alcohol, stated publicly that it did not want to go after bettors. So, today, no one is even proposing making it a federal crime to merely place a bet.
Internet operators, especially those who do not have licenses from foreign countries, may be violating U.S. federal laws by taking bets online. The major statute, the Wire Act, was passed by Congress 35 years ago to help states enforce their anti-bookmaking laws. The Wire Act applies only to individuals in the business of gambling who use a wire, like a phone line, that crosses a state line. Gambling businesses that conduct 100 percent of their activities inside a single state do not violate the Wire Act. There are other federal anti-gambling laws, but most involve committing felonies under state laws.
The major weakness of the Wire Act, besides the fact that it was written long before the Internet was invented, is that it was designed to go after illegal bookies. Betting on a sports event or horse race is clearly covered. But, a good argument can be made that lotteries and casinos do not fall under the Wire Act, even if they are conducted interstate or internationally.
But there are still laws of the states, provinces, and territories. Federal governments may be interested only in organized crime, but states are often interested in saving your souls. Every state has what is known as “police power.” This is the right to protect the health, safety, welfare, and morals of its citizens. Of course, one man’s moral outrage is another man’s hobby.
Still, every state makes most forms of gambling a crime. Almost half the states specifically make it a crime to place a bet. For example, in California, it is a crime to bet at a banking or percentage game outside of an Indian casino. It is also a crime to make, take, or even record a bet on a sports event or horse race, outside of a licensed track or off-track betting location.
No ethical lawyer would ever tell you to break the law, but I have not found one reported case, in the history of the United States and Canada, of a player being arrested for making a bet on the Internet.
This does not mean it is legal. But, your only real chance of being charged with a crime for betting online would come if you were involved with organized crime or did something real stupid, like going on TV and daring the police to arrest you.
