CITING HARRY- Either way it's mathematically close, so it's not horrible to call or fold. It's a matter of
a) how big of an advantage it actually is if you win the hand (i.e. do you play a big stack properly) - Most players do better with a large stack, you can play a looser game and have more +EV spots with marginal hands while the blinds are that low, this is a factor I like
b) how big of a skill advantage do you have over the field (so you can wait for better spots) - I tend to think I usually have an edge over 70% of the field of most MTTs, dont know about the Sunday Million or the Big Tuesday but for average MTTs I feel confident.
c) how important the buy in amount is to your bankroll - This is were my logic encounters more problems with the call, I assume thats my biggest MTT of the day and I would certainly tilt to lose on the 1st hand on such a rushed and forceful decision.
Lets take into account here, that we dont know nothing about our opponents, we dont know how shitty they really are and is very different to know how to act KNOWING NOW what they were holding when they pushed in... now that we know it looks like a +EV opportunity, but the correct play is what you do not knowing and I don't like calling in that spot against AA or a flopped set... is a terrible spot against flopped set. How many chances you have of hitting that flush against 2 diamonds already, you only have 10 outs (without counting the diamonds folded by the players who didnt call).
a) how big of an advantage it actually is if you win the hand (i.e. do you play a big stack properly) - Most players do better with a large stack, you can play a looser game and have more +EV spots with marginal hands while the blinds are that low, this is a factor I like
b) how big of a skill advantage do you have over the field (so you can wait for better spots) - I tend to think I usually have an edge over 70% of the field of most MTTs, dont know about the Sunday Million or the Big Tuesday but for average MTTs I feel confident.
c) how important the buy in amount is to your bankroll - This is were my logic encounters more problems with the call, I assume thats my biggest MTT of the day and I would certainly tilt to lose on the 1st hand on such a rushed and forceful decision.
Lets take into account here, that we dont know nothing about our opponents, we dont know how shitty they really are and is very different to know how to act KNOWING NOW what they were holding when they pushed in... now that we know it looks like a +EV opportunity, but the correct play is what you do not knowing and I don't like calling in that spot against AA or a flopped set... is a terrible spot against flopped set. How many chances you have of hitting that flush against 2 diamonds already, you only have 10 outs (without counting the diamonds folded by the players who didnt call).
So, my final answer is it's a marginal situation postflop and you should take it if you feel that you can play the big stack well and the buy in is not that important to you.
I am not a SNG expert but I would lean more towards folding it in a SNG and calling it in an MTT. Reason being you must take chances and accumulate chips in an MTT to go deep and hit the bigger payouts. In a SNG you can pass up this opportunity (and other marginal ones) and still have a great chance to cash/win.
I am not a SNG expert but I would lean more towards folding it in a SNG and calling it in an MTT. Reason being you must take chances and accumulate chips in an MTT to go deep and hit the bigger payouts. In a SNG you can pass up this opportunity (and other marginal ones) and still have a great chance to cash/win.
Ok you said you would call the 4 way all in after the flop with an A high draw in an SNG but not in an MTT.
I said I would do the opposite.
I would auto fold that in a SNG.
You said the reason you would is because the buyin is cheaper in a SNG.
So with that said lets pretend that the buy in was the same for both.
Because I don't think the answer should have anything to do with money.
There is a right play and a wrong play regardless of money but to eliminate that issue lets just say both are the same.
I think calling a 4 way all in after the flop with an A high FD on the first hand of a SNG is a dumb move.
But it is a smart move in an MTT.
In an MTT you have to accumulate chips.
You have to find spots that are mathematically viable to stack up.
SNGs are more about being one of the last 2 or 3 standing.
For the most part just stay out of the way and let all the idiots knock each other out.
MTTs are about accumulation.
SNGs are about survival.
So that same play I called in the Bovada 100K I would have snapped folded on the first hand of SNG because once that first hand is over in the SNG you would be guaranteed to be tied for 2nd place with 50% of the remaining field getting paid.
If I would have won that first hand for 20K chips in the 100K I could have basically folded my way all the way to the money if I would have wanted.
I would have been in a very powerful position.
I said I would do the opposite.
I would auto fold that in a SNG.
You said the reason you would is because the buyin is cheaper in a SNG.
So with that said lets pretend that the buy in was the same for both.
Because I don't think the answer should have anything to do with money.
There is a right play and a wrong play regardless of money but to eliminate that issue lets just say both are the same.
I think calling a 4 way all in after the flop with an A high FD on the first hand of a SNG is a dumb move.
But it is a smart move in an MTT.
In an MTT you have to accumulate chips.
You have to find spots that are mathematically viable to stack up.
SNGs are more about being one of the last 2 or 3 standing.
For the most part just stay out of the way and let all the idiots knock each other out.
MTTs are about accumulation.
SNGs are about survival.
So that same play I called in the Bovada 100K I would have snapped folded on the first hand of SNG because once that first hand is over in the SNG you would be guaranteed to be tied for 2nd place with 50% of the remaining field getting paid.
If I would have won that first hand for 20K chips in the 100K I could have basically folded my way all the way to the money if I would have wanted.
I would have been in a very powerful position.
Couple thoughts.
a) Yeah any player has an advantage with a big stack. Question is how MUCH of an advantage? Do you think you can run over this field with it or not?
b) Sure, confidence is great. But being realistic. What I'm saying is I'm more likely to fold it in a donkament and more likely to call it if I was playing a high buy-in MTT against top pros.
c) +EV decisions are +EV decisions (not saying a call is definitely +EV). They might occur on the first hand of the tournament and you have to be willing to take the chance if it is correct.
As far as whether or not it is a +EV call mathematically, it depends how you range your opponents. But you are not in a "terrible spot" against a flopped set. You likely still have 25%ish. And I'm leaning towards it being less likely that at least the original shover has a set, I'm thinking more like KK or AA.
So against the original shover, if you range him at KK, AA, or sets, you have well above 25%.
Like I said though, the problem is that one of the callers probably has diamonds, which does drastically impact your equity as it reduces your outs.
I love the preflop call in late position at 4x level 1 blinds.
I agree with chop saying it is a fine postflop call with all the chips in there for an online tourney.
Personally, if I paid for a trip and hotel and $10k buying for the WSOP ME, I don't think I can make this call postflop even if it is +EV. Not saying I'll have better spots but to lose on the first hand for money that significant (to me) would haunt me for a long time.
I agree with chop saying it is a fine postflop call with all the chips in there for an online tourney.
Personally, if I paid for a trip and hotel and $10k buying for the WSOP ME, I don't think I can make this call postflop even if it is +EV. Not saying I'll have better spots but to lose on the first hand for money that significant (to me) would haunt me for a long time.
You suck at poker
So are u trying to say you have an impressive record with those 23 post of yours?
When 5 or 6 of those 23 post are in this thread?
What is your record? 2-1?
LOL.
Ghost alert.
JC in the house.
