OT - Do You Have the Right to Flip Off a Cop?

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David Hackbart was mad, and he wanted to show it, but he didn't think he would end up in federal court protecting his right to a rude gesture and demanding that the city of Pittsburgh stop violating the First Amendment rights of its residents.
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Hackbart, 34, was looking for a parking space on busy Murray Avenue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood on April 10, 2006. Spotting one, he attempted to back into it, but the driver of the car behind him refused to back up and give him sufficient room. Hackbart responded in the classic way. "I stuck my hand out the window and gave him the finger to say 'Hey, jerk, thanks,' " says Hackbart. "That's all I was trying to say — 'Thanks, thanks a lot.' "

At that moment, a voice rang out telling Hackbart not to make the rude gesture in public. "So I was like, How dare that person tell me? They obviously didn't see what happened. Who are they to tell me what to say?" he says. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked, and it was a city of Pittsburgh cop in his car right next to me."

That turned out to be police sergeant Brian Elledge, who happened to be passing in the other direction in his cruiser. Elledge whipped around and pulled Hackbart over, citing him under the state's disorderly-conduct law, which bans obscene language and gestures.

Time Magazine..
 

ONE
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Technically it is legal to flip off a cop under the freedom of speech act but they will probably charge you with disorderly conduct like the example in your post and most likely get away with it.It makes no sense.
:toast:
 

"Here we go again"
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Are you allowed to filp off a civilian? Legally, yes. I don't see how it's illegal to quickly give a police officer the finger. As the above poster mentioned though, i'm sure they will find a way to slap you with something.


Either way, classless move.
 

Where Taconite Is Just A Low Grade Ore
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Are you allowed to filp off a civilian? Legally, yes. I don't see how it's illegal to quickly give a police officer the finger. As the above poster mentioned though, i'm sure they will find a way to slap you with something.


Either way, classless move.

Who, the cop?:>(
 
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i know i sure wouldn't try to flip the bird to a pig, i try to avoid all contact or interaction with them.
 

USERNAME OFFICIALLY RETIRED
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I think this makes for a homework assignment.

Everyone report back.
 

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Gotta be legal (as in, if the supreme court were to rule on it) - but not something anyone with half a brain would do.
 

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Who cars if you have the right.


You have the right to listen to NWA's fuck the police while being pulled over by a cop, but it's not the best idea.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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There is of course no law which could stand up that prohibits one giving an obscene gesture (or speaking an obscene word/phrase) to a police officer.

As noted earlier, cops can arrest you anytime and levy a "Disorderly Conduct" charge. The chances of such a charge withstanding significant legal defense are dubious.

Chasing the further details of WIL's lead story now.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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I just woke up...overlooked that WIL had provided the link to full article from TIME Magazine this week.

Here's the rest of the article, beginning after the concluding paragraph posted by WIL

The good news is that articles like this put a large spotlight on police misconduct and this will help reduce such misconduct in the future.

Bolded emphasis below added by Barman



===
And here's where the problem lies, says state American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) legal director Witold (Vic) Walczak: the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression. A famous 1971 Supreme Court case upheld the right of a young man to enter the Los Angeles County Court House wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "F___ the Draft." (Read about how disorderly conduct is often a cop's call.)

"The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them — that's really what it comes down to." (Read a brief history of disorderly conduct.)




U.S. District Judge David Cercone ruled in March that the citation, along with the $119.75 court costs imposed by a city court, was clearly unconstitutional. The question, however, is whether the city has a pattern of tolerating this kind of constitutional violation. The ACLU says it found 188 cases from 2005 to 2007 in which people were cited under similar circumstances, despite an entry in the police department's training manual making clear that vulgar speech is not illegal.


The question was set to go to trial in Federal District Court last week, but the matter was delayed at the last moment while the two sides explored a settlement. The city's law department declined to comment on the case.
The problem is not confined to Pittsburgh. In 2007, a woman in Scranton, Pa., was cited for yelling obscenities at an overflowing toilet in her home — a tirade overheard by her neighbor, an off-duty police officer. She was later acquitted on constitutional grounds, and the city paid her a $19,000 settlement. "We probably handle a dozen of these cases every year," Walczak says. "We're actually negotiating with the state police right now, trying to force them to change their training and written materials to make clear you can't do this."



It is, of course, part of a larger question. The recent controversy over the arrest of historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. — who was charged with disorderly conduct in his home after police arrived to investigate an erroneous report of a burglary in progress — was cast in racial terms: a white officer distrusting a black homeowner. But Walczak says this issue seems to have more to do with a police officer being confronted by an angry and disrespectful person and turning disorderly-conduct laws into a "contempt of cop" law, as he puts it. "Frankly, I think having someone dropping the F-bomb is better than resisting arrest or taking a swipe at a police officer," Walczak says. "But what we're seeing too often is that police who are offended by a lack of respect, often manifested by profanity or cursing, will punish people for that." (Read Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Henry Louis Gates Jr. affair.)


Elledge and the city police department have consistently refused to comment on the case. But Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, says police officers are not out to systematically punish people who mouth off. "There is certainly no substitute for good judgment on the street," says Pasco, whose organization represents officers nationwide, including Pittsburgh, "and if in the officer's judgment, maintenance of order is going to be preserved by giving a citation or making an arrest, then the officer is going to use his judgment to make that arrest or issue that citation." (See pictures of Henry Louis Gates Jr.)


Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way.**


But Hackbart, a paralegal who learned about court rulings on vulgar language in a communications-law class, says police should not be able to punish people by issuing citations they know to be unconstitutional. Elledge "shouldn't be allowed to conduct himself like that with no repercussions," he says. "Does everybody have to go through this to defend themselves against a bogus charge?"






=======
**Barman comments: This is a classic example of a police officer whistling in the dark about a personal belief that is in direct contrast to constitutional law. Moreover, in the primary case cited in this article, the citizen did nothing to deliberately "distract a police officer from his job". Rather, the police officer deliberately inserted himself into the life of the citizen without reasonable cause.

These stories are why those of us who actively work to promote and increase education on basic civil liberties are not likely to run out of work any time soon.
 

Rx. Senior
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Read the entire article. The court threw the case out without much question. The issue isn't this one citation, the issue is 188 similar incidents over three years. That is 188 examples of the police doing more to hurt the community than they are to protect it
 
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Oh boy!
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There is of course no law which could stand up that prohibits one giving an obscene gesture (or speaking an obscene word/phrase) to a police officer.

As noted earlier, cops can arrest you anytime and levy a "Disorderly Conduct" charge. The chances of such a charge withstanding significant legal defense are dubious.

Chasing the further details of WIL's lead story now.

As you mention, the "Disorderly Conduct" charge can be done with little reason.
  • Police are allowed to arrest someone with the smallest of evidence without recourse.
  • The courts throw out a case or decide it must continue.
  • A jury decides if a person is guilty or not guilty.
With that being said, the police can make the most heinous case out of the most innocent act. That is why they are universally hated. (Not all police are thought of this way. This is a generalization.)

Here in Arizona a couple brought in pictures of their daughters in the bath to Walmart. Even though they were not lewd pictures, Walmart turned them over to the police and the state took away the children. The children were subject to invasive sexual tests to see if they had been sexually abused.

Now that is fucked up!

The couple is suing Walmart and the state.
 

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If the cop wants to he can arrest you for disorderly conduct. That seems to be a catch all for anything you do that a cop does not like.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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QL, that's more a byproduct of hysterical and irrational fears about child molestors than it is police misconduct.

But both are worthy of attention from sensible thinkers.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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If the cop wants to he can arrest you for disorderly conduct. That seems to be a catch all for anything you do that a cop does not like.

Correct.

However, such charges don't turn into convictions unless the evidence can withstand a legal defense in court. Citzens as a whole need to be increasingly proactive in challenging all such bogus uses of police arrest powers.

A proper defense would include ordering a deposition for the arresting officer(s). In that deposition, their complete personnel file and arrest records would be introduced into evidence and they would be legally required to answer questions about each and every arrest if so requested by the current defense attorney.

Run more cops through such depositions, wherein their personal job history is put under the spotlight (while not being paid, I should add) and we've created a legitimate deterrent to other cops abusing their power of arrest in future encounters with citizens.
 

Oh boy!
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QL, that's more a byproduct of hysterical and irrational fears about child molestors than it is police misconduct.

But both are worthy of attention from sensible thinkers.

This brings up something I've often wondered about. Who makes the decision to arrest someone in a case like this? The police on the spot or does it have to go to the States Attorney's office? Or do some get arrested right away by police while others are arrested later on by the States Attorney depending upon the evidence?

TIA.
 

Oh boy!
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Run more cops through such depositions, wherein their personal job history is put under the spotlight (while not being paid, I should add) and we've created a legitimate deterrent to other cops abusing their power of arrest in future encounters with citizens.

Would this really be much of a deterrent when there is so much looking the other way in police ranks? If someone were in good with the police chief I would think they wouldn't really care what goes on their record, especially if they aren't officially reprimanded. In fact, I would guess some police chiefs would commend such an officer as doing their job thoroughly.

As you probably know, the US Supreme Court has ruled that it is sometimes necessary for investigating police officers to lie about what has happened (except under oath) in order to further their investigation concerning a crime they believe may have occurred.
 

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