Nasdaq, ATX, Ny Sports, Big Pete, would love your opinions on this

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Okay so i just went over to wagerline at looked an consensus picks, i then looks at the linemovement throughtout the week from wagerline (i know there's better opening lines to use but didn't have then).

The picks or the week where the lined moved against the majority or no line movement at all would be

Teams on the Road
UAB +10
Texas Al Paso +8.5
Idaho +10
Ball St +2.5
La Lafeyetee +35
South Miss +7

Teams at Home
Iowa St +21
S. Florida +1.5
Baylor +19
Tulsa +7.5
Arizona St +10.5
Navy +13.5
G. Tech +6.5

So far G.Tech, UAB, Baylor, Navy, Ball State are winners

That's 5-0 so far.

Is this a realistically effective method to picking games?
 

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early on in the year no good; but sure looks good now. maybe some knows for a whole year? post a copy of this thread in the handicapping forum also.
 

ATX

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I agree with Sammy, the public often does decent in the early season, IMO it's part of the 'plan'.

Wagerline is not always an accurate description of the public.

The public is generally better in college sports than in the professional ranks, one reason is many are privy to info that the books simply dont consider enough or have access to, and some of this info has a MUCH bigger affect on the outcome in NCAA than in professional leagues where backups are not really that big of a dropoff from a statisitical value standpoint.

A lot regarding this topic is highly debatable b/c "the public" is not easily definable and the number of events for a sample size to be significant is also another issue. My thoughts on this: a large sample size is not necessarily needed for something like this b/c the books already have the sample size from one hundred years of games which is what they basically use to determine their values. They also have a good idea about what money will go where on an offered spread and THIS has a large affect on the spread on some games. In other words the true odds are not always offered b/c the betting pattern would not be desirable on some events.

Most of my BIG wagers are based upon several angles lining up. Two of these are: the public going the opposite way, and a line being off enough to capture a key number. Not always but those are a couple of angles that historically win. It's not an exact science, the public does win sometimes, and the oddsmakers are really dumb sometimes. But I also think that the latter is purposeful on occasion to give the 'public' a taste of winning, if someone NEVER wins they wont bet, the books have a system with which they get the money in the end.

From what I have noticed, fading doesnt work as well until after week 4 of the NFL. In the NBA I think fading is even better, the public doesnt generally have a clue about what NBA numbers should be. They dont realize that there are key numbers in the NBA just as the 3 and 7 are important in football. I'll put it this way: for the last couple of months of the NBA regular season fading public money was a very, very good. This approach didnt work very well in the beginning of the playoffs, it cost me a little, I quickly ignored this angle and did my own thing with a lot better results. I'm not sure about fading in the playoffs, I usually dont pay attention so much to this angle during the playoffs as I feel I have strong enough numbers to outweigh the regular season angles.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some shops have a lot better numbers to base moves off of. A move at Pinnacle is more tell-tale than a move at SIA, for example.

I hope some of this makes sense, I think you are looking at something that works, the key is to divide it into subsets, and throw out the losing sets. Keep in mind that what works one season doesnt necessarily work the next, you have to be ready to switch gears quickly, the public has had winning seasons before. I feel it is very important to use MULTIPLE angles in evaluating the sports market. One year one angle works well, the next it might not as the books adjust and/or teams' playing styles change. The best angles are ones in which the value will almost certainly always be there b/c the money will almost certainly be going to the other side in a situation, year after year.
 

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nice work.
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alsolutely makes sense, i do think that wagerline is a tad better of a representative than you give credit. Also, i think, correct me if i'm wrong, that Canbet is known for being the 'sharpest' book line movement wise. Right?
 

ATX

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I think wagerline may actually be a good representation, you may be correct with that assumption. I actually think that since it is a website that I imagine draws from many different regions it can be useful, action can vary significantly from region to region, and it is important to take this into consideration when looking at this from a market perspective. One of my main points is to not become too dependant on any one tool. Change is constant, and the one thing that will save you during drastic changes in the short term is money management.

Reason why wagerline may not be representative of the public: the public taps out. Every year the public bets on every sport and dont last half the season. Sure they re-up at times(reason they offer bonuses) but I am generalizing. There are actually multiple seasons in each sport. In the NFL appx the first 4 weeks is akin to the Wild West. In a lot of games the oddsmakers dont have a real good feel for the teams this early and it is common for public teams to win multiple games in a row ATS. As the season progresses the lines get sharper on many of the teams, this is b/c of several things. Obviously the more games that have been played the stronger the numbers that can be computed. But also keep in mind that the money that you are betting against late in the season is smarter, it has survived this long so it is a little wiser. This can get very complicated to try to explain and it differs by game in a lot of cases IMO. But the oddsmakers have done this for so long that they know how to adjust lines to compensate for changes in sharp vs. public money. The NFL has a LOT of public money being bet, but keep in mind that the BOOKS bet also, you dont hear about the amount of THEIR action, and this affects the line as well. Now as far as how does that affect wagerline's consensus? The people that pick at wagerline change as the season goes on. In week 2 you have different people than during week 14, a lot of people tap out and probably arent too worried about going to wagerline to share their losers. Also the number of people sharing decreases as the season wears on. I think this may be part of the reason why the consensus seemed to do well in the early NBA playoffs last year, maybe it was a fluke, I dunno. What I do know is that during the last couple of months of the NBA season prior to the playoffs the consensus was so consistently bad that I almost always checked it before placing a wager. A lot of times I stuck to a wager even though...What really sucked was getting down on a game early, then watching with horror as the public lined up behind me at the wagerline consensus hour by hour. You dont know how many times I wished a group of 500 people would walk in and choose the opposite team, it was like the kiss of death to have 60% on the same team. Just like anything else this is streaky, I have seen plenty of people try to use this strategy and give up. It's more about HOW you use it. I get info from other sources as well and fwiw it is generally on the same page as WL. Dont neglect totals, often public sides will go 4-2 but public totals will go 1-4, dont assume that fading will net you 60% winners, or that there wont be losing weeks or really bad days. Not that I think you dont know this, but I have seen a lot of people get hurt b/c of poor planning.

I'm not sure about why you assume that about Canbet. I am curious as to your thoughts on them, or where you heard that. Canbet is one of my favorite books. And it's not because of the orange color, customer service, limits, or reduced vig....
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A guy who another forum which i wont' name has extensively followed line moves the past couple years and does so through Canbet. Firstly, the bigness of the book ensures that it needs extensive action to move lines slightly. Smaller books tend to move quicker i think because many times you have other books unloading their one sided action on them. He claims to have read stuff on the fact that Canbet is the book of choice of the 'smart money' in most sports. I was taking his word at face value and thought maybe someone else would have more input.
 

ATX

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it's interesting that he would say that...I wonder what he was tracking, and who he was comparing them to. Which forum did you see this? SSB, MW, MJ's??? I dont think it's a big deal to mention it, most people go to several forums.

I find Canbet one of the easiest to beat outside of the SIA's of the world.
 

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ok, it was actually covers.com, a year ago. I get his emails daily during baseball season where he follows movement against the consensus, the subject that i am studying right now. He has studies line movement for quite a while and this is what he records opening lines from Canbet: This is what he says

Canbet is a book used by 'sharps' and this is what this is all about, finding what the sharps are betting. Therefore Canbet lines and moves do truly reflect where th emoney is going, versus a small book who moves lines either to stay in tune with the bigger ones or to balance what they are hodling. Following lines from a small book will not reflect sharp money. Canbet are actually o record as saying they move lines based on what the sharps are betting.
 

ATX

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what was the guy's handle?

it's not that big of a deal really, but be careful what you read at covers, I dont go there much but a lot of stuff I've seen is a little off-base there. I dont think many people would agree that Canbet is a sharp out. They dont really like sharp action at all and will cut limits and kick you out in some cases. They are slow to move lines in a lot of cases, and sometimes offer an off number at -107. Dont get me wrong, I like Canbet, but their lines reflect the public more so than a lot of other books, I'm pretty sure the majority of their customer base is still recreational type players. Canbet is not a small shop, but they dont want a lot of the action that Pinnacle, Grande, Olympic, Cascade, and CRIS etc. dont mind taking. It varies by sport, but IMO Pinnacle is still the sharpest shop out there, they have to be b/c they have the sharpest people betting into them as well as some of the lowest vig offered. I know a couple of people that simply follow Pinnacle's moves and dont really even handicap at all. I was curious as to why he chose Canbet as the barometer, I still am a little bit.
 

ATX

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I'm interested in how he studies the consensus in baseball, since there are ML's involved. I have a general idea on what he probably does, but I havent watched it much outside of the last few months.
 

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i wish i had the thing saved, i just have a hard copy, if you give me your email address, i'll retype it and send it to you.
 

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FWIT I have to agree with ATX's assesment of Pinnnacle -- I make certain to compare line movements at Pinnacle with other shops that I consider square (MVP, Sportsbook -- please correct me if your info on these shops differ)..That said, following line movements is only one part to a bigger puzzle -- despite what many contend, I do beleive that lines can be beat with discipline and hard work.

GL
 

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Thanks for keeping count, last week opposite movement of consensus went 5-2 after a rotten week before that. I was out of town this weekend at the AU/UT game and couldn't track em. Thanks for the work.

I'll start a thread around Thursday of what I think are opposite consensus movements. There are some big public games, and it should be interesting and maybe profitable.

I also think Utah fit in the non-moving category, so chalk another one.
 

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ATX, i'll have that to you by the end of the week, i emailed the guy to resend them to me.
 

ATX

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guys,

I think that we could put a really good system together. I already do this to a certain extent myself, it's just a lot to keep track of for one person (since I wager on so many events I dont have a lot of time).

I can add some book info that I am privy to each week. I usually get it from 10-12 locations.

I have some ideas about what to look for as far as line moves and where and when and what they mean for each game, but in all honesty it's probably best to keep this as simple as possible.

I started watching the same 3 or 4 books and using the different opinions between them as a kind of case study. I can throw in my 2 cents about them, I know them pretty well esp on 2nd halves and 1st halves, just as you can share what you know about MVP etc (I dont pay attn to them).

I'll start with something that has worked blindly the last couple of years in the first half of the season for NBA and NFL: Bet on any 1.5 point (or more) line move on a TOTAL. This works very well in the first 4 weeks or so as the books really struggle with totals early on, esp. in the NBA.

I'll add some more in a bit. I need to get this FLA/CHI under down at Canbet
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Also, haven't followed it this year but last year was successful. Bet on any team that opens as a dog and moves to a favorite. This opposite consensus thing has the ability to work, last week i used the lines from wagerline which are a little off, i think the consensus from wagerline along with the books that share their betting intake information at sportsinsight.com, if we use line moves from a sharper book, this can work. Maybe we should start a thread each week where we can all contribute to it.

BTW: I am only a rookie in this capping game, i am a 22 recent college grad who is only learning capping, basically i use emotion in capping (teams between conference/division games), off big wins, etc. That is all i really know right now but am learning more and more.
 

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