N.C. voters approve gay marriage ban

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I guess the state should round up all the amish kids and put them in an orphanage then. I'm a hard core Libertarian, and am not big on statism, much in line with founding fathers, so no I don't think the government needs to round up people's children and take them away.

Dude, you keep twisting shit to suit your own needs. I said a kid that stays at home that has no formal education. That kid is much different than an Amish kid.

And you'd better hope a kid at 14 that has no formal education gets rounded up or you'll have a kid soaking up all our tax dollars from sitting in jail for the next 60 years.

Do you really think it's ok for a parent to keep a kid home and let him sit on his ass?
 

fig

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Live and let live....I cannot fathom why some care about gay marriage anyway....who is it really hurting?

I know some marriages that should be dissolved....worrying about 2 people who love each other is just wasting my time..

This.
 

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Dude, you keep twisting shit to suit your own needs. I said a kid that stays at home that has no formal education. That kid is much different than an Amish kid.

And you'd better hope a kid at 14 that has no formal education gets rounded up or you'll have a kid soaking up all our tax dollars from sitting in jail for the next 60 years.

Do you really think it's ok for a parent to keep a kid home and let him sit on his ass?
If we start rounding up all the children of gays, single families ect or anything else you don't agree with. There will be a hell of a lot more tax dollars going into paying to raise all these children you want to take away, whom are probably going to end up even more fucked up. And if a kid isn't being educated publicly or by his parents via home-schooled, then there's probably something else going on there. Would you not educate your children if it were not illegal to do so. Society isn't dependent on you using force to do the right thing. Is it right that child is uneducated? No of course not. Is right to eat nothing but Big Macs, and be fat and lazy? No but I don't need a state forcing these things. The money spent on creating your perfect world cost much more than the one where there are actual organic consequences.
 

fig

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huh?

God I have to bite my tongue with all the stupid shit you post. The majority of Americans are against gay marriage, so that means the majority of Americans
are religious nuts?

:ohno:^<<^^<<^


The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

Adam Kolasinski

The debate over whether the state ought to recognize gay marriages has thus far focused on the issue as one of civil rights. Such a treatment is erroneous because state recognition of marriage is not a universal right. States regulate marriage in many ways besides denying men the right to marry men, and women the right to marry women. Roughly half of all states prohibit first cousins from marrying, and all prohibit marriage of closer blood relatives, even if the individuals being married are sterile. In all states, it is illegal to attempt to marry more than one person, or even to pass off more than one person as one’s spouse. Some states restrict the marriage of people suffering from syphilis or other venereal diseases. Homosexuals, therefore, are not the only people to be denied the right to marry the person of their choosing.
I do not claim that all of these other types of couples restricted from marrying are equivalent to homosexual couples. I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. Collecting a deceased spouse’s social security, claiming an extra tax exemption for a spouse, and having the right to be covered under a spouse’s health insurance policy are just a few examples of the costly benefits associated with marriage. In a sense, a married couple receives a subsidy. Why? Because a marriage between two unrelated heterosexuals is likely to result in a family with children, and propagation of society is a compelling state interest. For this reason, states have, in varying degrees, restricted from marriage couples unlikely to produce children.
Granted, these restrictions are not absolute. A small minority of married couples are infertile. However, excluding sterile couples from marriage, in all but the most obvious cases such as those of blood relatives, would be costly. Few people who are sterile know it, and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. One might argue that the exclusion of blood relatives from marriage is only necessary to prevent the conception of genetically defective children, but blood relatives cannot marry even if they undergo sterilization. Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reading technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.
Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the advocates of gay marriage to show what state interest these marriages serve. Thus far, this burden has not been met.
One may argue that lesbians are capable of procreating via artificial insemination, so the state does have an interest in recognizing lesbian marriages, but a lesbian’s sexual relationship, committed or not, has no bearing on her ability to reproduce. Perhaps it may serve a state interest to recognize gay marriages to make it easier for gay couples to adopt. However, there is ample evidence (see, for example, David Popenoe’s Life Without Father) that children need both a male and female parent for proper development. Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting. However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child’s development should give advocates of gay adoption pause. The differences between men and women extend beyond anatomy, so it is essential for a child to be nurtured by parents of both sexes if a child is to learn to function in a society made up of both sexes. Is it wise to have a social policy that encourages family arrangements that deny children such essentials? Gays are not necessarily bad parents, nor will they necessarily make their children gay, but they cannot provide a set of parents that includes both a male and a female.
Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state’s interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation.
Some argue that homosexual marriages serve a state interest because they enable gays to live in committed relationships. However, there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.
Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation. In the 20th century, Western societies have downplayed the procreative aspect of marriage, much to our detriment. As a result, the happiness of the parties to the marriage, rather than the good of the children or the social order, has become its primary end, with disastrous consequences. When married persons care more about themselves than their responsibilities to their children and society, they become more willing to abandon these responsibilities, leading to broken homes, a plummeting birthrate, and countless other social pathologies that have become rampant over the last 40 years. Homosexual marriage is not the cause for any of these pathologies, but it will exacerbate them, as the granting of marital benefits to a category of sexual relationships that are necessarily sterile can only widen the separation between marriage and procreation.
The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis can it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction than love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.
Adam Kolasinski is a doctoral student in financial economics.

http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html

Fester, I know you did not write that article but comment on this, "...the propagation of society is a compelling state interest." Huh? My view is that we have a world-wide over population issue going on and more locally here in the US a major over population scenario going. What am I missing? Its in the states' best interest to help propagate society? Since when? I think the opposite; we ought to be looking for ways to control our population growth and distribution of limited resources.

Allowing gay women and men to marry would increase adoptions I'd think and help aleviate the unwanted children problem.
 

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If we start rounding up all the children of gays, single families ect or anything else you don't agree with. There will be a hell of a lot more tax dollars going into paying to raise all these children you want to take away, whom are probably going to end up even more fucked up. And if a kid isn't being educated publicly or by his parents via home-schooled, then there's probably something else going on there. Would you not educate your children if it were not illegal to do so. Society isn't dependent on you using force to do the right thing. Is it right that child is uneducated? No of course not. Is right to eat nothing but Big Macs, and be fat and lazy? No but I don't need a state forcing these things. The money spent on creating your perfect world cost much more than the one where there are actual organic consequences.

Again, you take posts in a thread and stretch the scenario to the max and become overly dramatic. Who said anywhere we're going to round up the kids of gays and single parents? Where does that thought come from? How does that even enter the conversation? It's almost paranoia.

So, if a kid is not being publicly educated or home schooled, you agree there is a problem somewhere. It is our job as a society and the government's job in that specific case to intervene to find out what is going on in order to help the kid. This is a fact.
 
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Fester, I know you did not write that article but comment on this, "...the propagation of society is a compelling state interest." Huh? My view is that we have a world-wide over population issue going on and more locally here in the US a major over population scenario going. What am I missing? Its in the states' best interest to help propagate society? Since when? I think the opposite; we ought to be looking for ways to control our population growth and distribution of limited resources.

Allowing gay women and men to marry would increase adoptions I'd think and help aleviate the unwanted children problem.

My intent in posting the article was to show that there are non-religious reasons
for opposing gay marriage. We have people in this thread saying that anyone
that opposes gay marriage must be a religious wacko. We'll have to agree to disagree that allowing gays to adopt children is a good idea.
 

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All is very well, thanks. May be in the ATL region for a business meting in early Sept...I'll let u know once its c,onfirmed


Keep me posted. Me & the ole lady usually go to Destin the first few weeks of September, but maybe our schedules will work out. I will buy ya a beer. Actually I will introduce ya to a Sweetwater beer, that is brewed here in the Great Peach State.......heaven in a bottle!!!
 

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So, if a kid is not being publicly educated or home schooled, you agree there is a problem somewhere. It is our job as a society and the government's job in that specific case to intervene to find out what is going on in order to help the kid. This is a fact.

It is not my responsibility nor yours to tell people how to raise their kids. That's the whole thing people have been arguing against you about the claims that kids are immediately fucked from the get go if adopted by gay parents or are raised by a single parent or grandparents or whatever.

We need gas pump attendants just like we need doctors. But to make the claim that society has to step in (kids get abused in far worse ways than sitting at home and most times, no one intervenes) is making the claim that "society" knows what's best for each individual. That is exactly what a big brother totalitarian state wants us to think.

For all you know, a child (in a specific case) could be better off for the future if raised by two gay parents. But, with some of the things you've said, this is impossible and he can only be fucked from the get go.
 

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It is not my responsibility nor yours to tell people how to raise their kids. That's the whole thing people have been arguing against you about the claims that kids are immediately fucked from the get go if adopted by gay parents or are raised by a single parent or grandparents or whatever.

We need gas pump attendants just like we need doctors. But to make the claim that society has to step in (kids get abused in far worse ways than sitting at home and most times, no one intervenes) is making the claim that "society" knows what's best for each individual. That is exactly what a big brother totalitarian state wants us to think.

For all you know, a child (in a specific case) could be better off for the future if raised by two gay parents. But, with some of the things you've said, this is impossible and he can only be fucked from the get go.

It is definitely our job as a society and the government's job to step in when a child is being neglected or abused. Not receiving home schooling or formal education is a form of neglect and some would argue abuse. I'm sorry you just don't understand this point.

If you ask 100 people if a kid needs an education, 99 of them will say "well, yes" while you will say "no, it's not my responsibility and I don't care." You'll be the first to say it's not your responsibility to intervene if a kid is abused or neglected but you'll also be the first to say he deserves health care. You can't have it both ways. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

"We need gas pump attendants just like we need doctors." Do you realize how dumb that sounds? Because a parent doesn't choose to help a kid get an education and he turns out to be a gas pump attendant, by your logic, it's ok because we need people in that role? But if he actually received a formal education just maybe he'd have a higher paying job than a gas pump attendant and achieve better but it's ok because we need people to pump gas. How moronic is that?

Also, it is only my opinion a kid should be raised by a mother and a father (abuse and other mitigating factors non withstanding) not a grandparent, single parent or two homosexual parents. I have no basis on which to base this opinion. IT IS SIMPLY MY OPINION. You can take that how you want.
 

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It is definitely our job as a society and the government's job to step in when a child is being neglected or abused. Not receiving home schooling or formal education is a form of neglect and some would argue abuse. I'm sorry you just don't understand this point.

If you ask 100 people if a kid needs an education, 99 of them will say "well, yes" while you will say "no, it's not my responsibility and I don't care." You'll be the first to say it's not your responsibility to intervene if a kid is abused or neglected but you'll also be the first to say he deserves health care. You can't have it both ways. Either you're part of the problem or part of the solution.

"We need gas pump attendants just like we need doctors." Do you realize how dumb that sounds? Because a parent doesn't choose to help a kid get an education and he turns out to be a gas pump attendant, by your logic, it's ok because we need people in that role? But if he actually received a formal education just maybe he'd have a higher paying job than a gas pump attendant and achieve better but it's ok because we need people to pump gas. How moronic is that?

Also, it is only my opinion a kid should be raised by a mother and a father (abuse and other mitigating factors non withstanding) not a grandparent, single parent or two homosexual parents. I have no basis on which to base this opinion. IT IS SIMPLY MY OPINION. You can take that how you want.

Every course every child deserves and should have a proper education to set themselves up for a solid future. But no, that is not my responsibility. Just like it's not your responsibility to help me pay my student loans and help me find a job.

And I will not say that child deserves health care. I would hope that he would have it. But I completely believe in privatized health care because I'm not an individual that feels I should pay 40-50% taxes. When it comes to the economy and financial issues, I'm as conservative as it gets. So don't make assumptions about how view health care when this was never part of the conversation. However, I am liberal when it comes to simple American rights (again, my opinion on what I view these rights to be) such as if Americans are held to the same tax standards as everyone else, then they should be afforded the same potential tax breaks as other American citizens.

I agree to disagree and we simply to do not share the same opinion on what we believe are basic civil rights and what society's responsibility is to some of its citizens. But that's what makes this country great is our ability to express our different opinions and to hold an open discussion.
 

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Every course every child deserves and should have a proper education to set themselves up for a solid future. But no, that is not my responsibility. Just like it's not your responsibility to help me pay my student loans and help me find a job.

And I will not say that child deserves health care. I would hope that he would have it. But I completely believe in privatized health care because I'm not an individual that feels I should pay 40-50% taxes. When it comes to the economy and financial issues, I'm as conservative as it gets. So don't make assumptions about how view health care when this was never part of the conversation. However, I am liberal when it comes to simple American rights (again, my opinion on what I view these rights to be) such as if Americans are held to the same tax standards as everyone else, then they should be afforded the same potential tax breaks as other American citizens.

I agree to disagree and we simply to do not share the same opinion on what we believe are basic civil rights and what society's responsibility is to some of its citizens. But that's what makes this country great is our ability to express our different opinions and to hold an open discussion.

Again, you skew the conversation to fit your agenda which is very very convenient.

A 14-year-old kid being afforded the right of a free basic formal education is nothing like someone helping you pay off student loans or helping you find a job. Those two are not even the same.

I'd say a kid not being sent to school by his parents and not being home schooled is abuse and neglect and in that case, the government's right to step in and intervene with that child. What would you call that?
 

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That is on the parents, not on me. That's what I call it.

But I was simply trying to back out of this conversation as we're clearing getting nowhere, gracefully and cordially. Have a pleasant evening.
 

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That is on the parents, not on me. That's what I call it.

But I was simply trying to back out of this conversation as we're clearing getting nowhere, gracefully and cordially. Have a pleasant evening.

And his parents keep him home from school and don't home school him. But according to your reasoning, hey, we need gas pump attendants so no problem, I'm glad he doesn't get the opportunity to a fair education like other kids. Not my problem.
 

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Saw something on the news tonight...some poll showing 50% of Americans approving of gay marriage and 45% disapproving. I guess the other 5% is undecided. For some reason I don't think those numbers are accurate...would love to know their source.
 

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Didn't read through all this, but once again, follow the money. This is all about spouses being able to claim each other for healthcare. Just another reason to take healthcare benefits out of the workplace and switch to a private payer system (if not Socialized medicine).

As a long term married man, I don't see any other reason that gays would push so hard to get married. Be careful what you wish for..... (mostly) JK. Frankly, I think that they are a tad lucky that they have no societal pressure to 'settle down'. I have a gay neighbor, and I envy his lifestyle sometimes. He does whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
 

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side note to the thread
am i the only one taking crazy pills or is it absurd that the gay rights advocates and the gay community are heralding Obama for supporting gay marriage...when it took him what, 3 years to 'be convinced'? Do they not think this comes out now because it's an election year? If I were gay and I saw this I'd say go fuck yourself for trying to win out vote by patronizing us than being an actual advocate.


"if"?..............
 

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Can't say I'm for or against gay marriage. Really don't care, it isn't my business. So I guess that means I'm for, by default.

Just not a major voting issue for me --- economy, education, taxes, immigration, foreign policy, war. Yet the 2012 election will probably be decided by dogs, carpet-munching, and high school bullying.

That being said, isn't it logical that:

2 straight parents > 2 gay parents > 1 parent > 0 parents

I know. What if Charles Manson had a baby with Casey Anthony? Be reasonable. All things equal, why wouldn't 2 straight parents be the ideal scenario?
 

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