My take on the bad line rule

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

Ive run into shops cryin bad line to me all the time. Until an objective ruling on what defines a bad line is made then the shop will always have the upper hand on the player in the ability to cry bad line whenever they want. I've been wanting to ban this bad line rule for years but no one listens cuz they always think its such a rare occurence. But when someone posts like I have several times and so many others have then the topic cycles itself again yet the situation never changes. Shops need to take responsibility. The only shop in this entire fuc*ing dead beat industry that pays off any bet they take action on and has never cried bad line is cascade. Why? Cuz they make sure they dont make mistakes and when they do they take responsibility for them. I have about 40 outs which I actively bet into and all of them has had a bad line at one time or another but the best record of them all is cascade.

To all DEADBEAT MUTHER FUC*ING AS*HOLE BOOKMAKERS THAT CANT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THEIR ACTIONS ..look at a shop like cascade and learn the meaning of the word RESPONSIBILITY.

Either objectively define what a bad line is or honor all bets taken and do something about the humans making these so called "human errors".

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

Owen
Lets not compare apples and oranges here. Your a thief and betting into totals 10+ points off is stealing. There are from time to time some shady at best "bad line" claims from books but not in your case.There are honest players on this board geting screwed by these claims don't try passing yourself off as one of them

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

DickyW...go fu*k yourself...you can call me whatever you want...The people I deal with on a daily basis know me for who I am. I just made a statement and I ask that you look at it objectively. Forget my personal experiences.

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

OK Mr.Owen

"do something about the humans making these so called "human errors"

You ever work in a shop? Have you ever worked on a college foots Saturday? Ajusting ML's, first halfs, games, totals, constantly for two, four hours straight?

Mistakes can and will happen to the most intellegent attentive bookmakers out their.

Where does your responsibility as a honest customer lie? I know your smart enough to understand players that intentionaly bet into bad lines are as bad for the offshore industry then the books posting them.

I agree at times there is a serious gray area to this issue. We the players know as much as anybody what a "bad line" is, just some of us bet it and then try to justify it. This "we bet it they book it" could work in a perfect world but humans are not perfect.

BTW you did bet a total that was 10 + points off right? You were wrong for doing this and it makes you a dishonest cheater, DEAL WITH IT!

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

"You ever work in a shop? Have you ever worked on a college foots Saturday? Ajusting ML's, first halfs, games, totals, constantly for two, four hours straight?"

Even a shop cant handle all those numbers then you shouldn't be bookin em all...Very simple

"Where does your responsibility as a honest customer lie? "

If the line is way outta whack I call teh shop and let em know. But a rule must be made assuming all people are equal. Some people may not know what bad line is . There are die hard yankess fans that would lay 230 when the line is 150 everywhere else without thinkin twice. Will a shop cry bad line then .... I DOUBT IT!!!!!

As for me I have bet bad lines in the past. You call it stealing I call it good shoping. Today I would never bet a -9 when its supposed to be +9 but a -1 vs a +3.5 I wouldnt even think twice.

SENDITIN · Jun 30, 2003

Well said Dicky...it's about time

The problem I have is on that same game BetSwahilli in Kenya had the line 9 points off according to my spider program, so being 10 points away is only a "little" off.

Colburne · Jun 30, 2003

I can't believe that people take this attitude on the simple of subject stealing.

Call me honest, but if I go to a bar and the bill comes, and I notice that I was not charged for some of my drinks- I immediately let the server know and they make the correction. Sometimes, they bring me a free drink as a thank you, sometimes they don’t. Either way, I know I had 9 beers, taken the incorrect bill, and then ran out the door before anyone said anything- I would be stealing.

It doesn't take a genius to know the difference between a mistake and a proper line move. Owen and all his cronies can rot right out of this industry. They are the real deadbeats- I may or may not know you Owen, but I know the type; scumbag hustlers looking for a free roll. Why don't you spend your time handicapping an honest opinion and rather than scrutinizing your 40+ outs for obvious mistakes?

If you see a wrong line, or a suspect line, stand up and let the book know- don’t try and pick their pocket book. 5 points or 50 points, you know what you are doing.

“…These so called ‘human errors’..." What does that even mean? If you sincerely think a book would put up 183 instead of 138, mix up a run line, or whatever on purpose- then perhaps you are just delusional enough to think that you are doing the honest thing by betting that line.

Cole

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

Cole my point is "obvious error" is too ambiguous and there are several shops that abuse the power they have with the bad line rule. I make a living shopping for off numbers. Occasionally I dont know if a shop considers a number off vs bad. For example. wnba totals move like crazy. One shop has 140 the other 143 ..To me that is off. To some it may be bad. Point is one must either book it all or take the time out to define exactly what a bad line is. This protects both the player from a shop being able to bitch bad line whenever they want and at the same time protect a shop from a real "human error"

Java · Jun 30, 2003

Cole-
Try this on for size:

Casablanca goes to a bar and before the meal, agrees to pay $60.50. Before they eat, they learn that some customers are paying $35.00 for the same meal.
Casablanca eats the meal, but when the check comes, offers to pay only $15.00 (half the price for half the meal).

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

Owen
Hows this for a definition "A bad line is a college basketball total that is 18 points off"

Hows that? Like thats going to keep you from betting it. I'll gladly debate this with anyone but you. Your posting history speaks for itself.

You bet a college total that was 18 points off and then came back to rally posters to your defense. The book in question was shit and to save face they let you bet another game at a correct line. You won your bet and you still cried the victim. Good shopper my ass, your a cheater and thats all you are.

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

Dicky you called me a cheater!! I dont cheat anyone. I am a value shopper. Why I defend myself to someone like you is besides me. You have 5300 posts which means you live and breathe this forum sh*t. I made my point. A bad line should be clearly and objectively defined without using words liek obvious (since obvious to jow blow aint the same as obvious to johnny cash) or you can be like a cascade and book it all. PERIOD

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

You admitted to betting a college hoop total that was 18 points off. You call it shopping I call it stealing. Cheaters like you need to justify your actions by calling it shopping. Anyone with a conscience and a half a brain knows a college total off 18 points is a bad line.

What exactly is your arguement? Are you saying that betting a total thats off 18 points is not cheating? Your in denial buddy at least have the balls to admitt you'll steal if given the chance.

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

You're a maniac. I make a general comment and you go back to my 18 pt off total. I bet a line that the shop was dealing and they were the ONLY ones to have the line up. Then other people put their line up and the shop is off by 18pts..is that betting into a bad line when at the time I bet it they are the only ones dealing the number?!?!!

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

I'm a maniac? Sorry owen I am a customer as well as a bookmaker and it's people like you who fvck it up for everyone. Your story is bullshit and all one needs to do is punch in Owen and do a search and they'll find out everything they need to know about you. 338 posts all crying about books cancelling your pick off plays.
I take your bullshit personal from both sides of the counter. And your "Readbacks are final" and your "I bet it you book it" shit would be great but unfortunatly there are too many scumbags like you lurking online.

Good luck sir and happy shopping

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

I praise those who deserve praise and call out those who I dont. I tell it like it is. Dicky with 5300 posts its hard to belive you do any booking or betting. Keep posting away buddy. Your an addicted post-a-holic.

Java · Jun 30, 2003

DickyW-
Before you and Owen get into a flame war, can YOU answer the following question?
If 18 points on a College Basketball total is stealing, then where do YOU draw the line?
1 point, 5 points, 10 points, etc?

Seriously, the "I can't define porn, but I know it when I see it" argument doesn't work when we have hard numbers.
If you think cut-off for stealing is 17 points, then Owen's 18 points maybe borderline for some. If you think more than 2 points is stealing, then we know where you stand.

I personally don't know what the "right" cut-off number is, but I think anyone claiming a line is a "steal", should define their cut-off for future reference.

Seven · Jun 30, 2003

Mr. Cole made one of the best posts that I have seen in awhile. Owen, someone like yourself that has over 40 outs is not only scalping or looking for the best line. It's obvious that you are looking for bad lines. People like Owen are the ones that make books go out of business.

Owen · Jun 30, 2003

You're all nuts if you think all I do is sop for bad lines. I shop for off lines not bad lines. Very big difference. But as java said there is a time where the gray area would come in which a shop and myself may disagree on the word obvious in the statement "obvious error" . -1 vs -3 is fair game to me. -1 vs -11 is obvoius error to me. 134 as the ONLY LINE UP is ofcourse fair game regardless if another shop puts up a 154 3 hours later or not.

DickyW · Jun 30, 2003

Owen
Whatever you say buddy. I spent sometime over the last two years reading and posting on this forum. You my friend spend your time online spotting and betting and stealing. I will admitt you make money online stealing and I don't, your the man

Java
"Before you and Owen get into a flame war, can YOU answer the following question?
If 18 points on a College Basketball total is stealing, then where do YOU draw the line?
1 point, 5 points, 10 points, etc"

From a bookmakers point of view I would probably draw the line around 5.If a line was put in by mistake and was 18 points off I would go through each player and make a decision. It DOES'NT mean that all the squares get paid and all the wiseguys get cancelled, The fact is I pay Java because he gives me a fair play. Owen on the other hand bets very rarely and only bets into bad numbers so he gets his bet refunded, his money sent and his account closed.

Never would I consider 1,2, or 3 points in a college hoop game stealing. Sometimes the number moves that much in one pop. Thats a mistake you chalk up to someone not paying attention or being under staffed. As I said a line would have to be a VERY obvious mistake for me to cancel an event after being final

Java · Jun 30, 2003

DickyW-
I appreciate your answer. However, the I would go through each player and make a decision seems to be the philosophy that some players/books are at odds about.
Some think the book has disgression on a per player basis. Others think that it is unfair to pay some players and not others for the same line.
The other issue seems to be what constitutes an "obvious" bad line (unless range of good/bad is defined and posted in advance).

So, I think there are going to be two camps: pay all the same way or pay some selectively.

No one seems to have a problem with throwing out players selectively (but once you have paid).