My sincere thanks...to all Vets

jointpleasures · May 28, 2004

Just wanted to make sure you all know that most of us don't have the words to tell you how much we appreciate the sacrifice you all did for our continued freedom. I've ran into many vietnam vets as well as quit a few Korean and WWII vets either through work, golf course, the bar... and I tell them the same.

I usually get a blank stare from them when I ramble on about how important their service was to me and in about every instance, they end up with a smile on their face. That makes my day!

JudgeWapner · May 28, 2004

JP,it ain't often we agree,but we certainly do here.

cussin'it · May 28, 2004

JP, absolutely! They have/continue to man the frontline against the ever-continuing assault on FREEDOM! God bless them!

_________________________
Sure could use a trim

Phaedrus · May 28, 2004

Can anyone explain to me how being a veteran of any American military conflict since the War of 1812 was in service to American freedom?

Get a clue. It wasn't.

Vietnam? Please. Two superpowers playing games in the jungle, add another ten years to the Cold War. Some service.

Korea? No, but it provided containment on Chinese expansion (for which there is no evidence it would have otherwise occurred) and set us up for half a century and counting of breast-feeding the South Koreans.

WWII? Saved Western Europe from the Nazis, little late for the Jews (oy vey! Sorry we ignored your systemic slaughter for years there guys, but wait til you see our plan to make it up to you!) saved Southeast Asia from the Japanese, and sold 1/3 of the world's population into slavery under the USSR.

WWI? Squash one dictatorship, build three. Great plan.

No point in getting into Reagan, GHW Bush and Clinton's little min-wars, the permanent conflict which is required to justify the abortion of freedom that is the U.S. military.

You guys think way, way way too highly of these "servicemen," and any who honestly believes he is in the military defending America's freedom is either naïve or stupid. The American military has not been focused on defending America in over a century, and is nothing more than the enforcement arm of the political class today. As such it should be scrapped by about 80%, leaving only a streamlined Navy and special forces for full-time defence and foreign ops, and a reserve contigent for sctually defending the country in the incredibly unlikely event of an invasion of America.

Phaedrus

JudgeWapner · May 28, 2004

Phaedras,Its not about whether the government was right or wrong,its about them believing in something and putting thier lives on the line for it.More balls than me,and that I respect and admire.Could bore you with my dad's WW 2 experience,but won't.Let's just say,I could not concieve going through what he did.

Phaedrus · May 28, 2004

And I could bore you with my former father-in-law's WWII experience, having been put in a concentration camp at age three and lost his family to the Nazis. Doesn't make WWII's result any more profound than it is.

With the exception of myself and two others every man on my father's side of the family has been in the military (and most of them fought in at least one war) all the way back to the Revolution. I myself attempted to join the Navy and be a Navy pilot like my father, but I was too tall for fighters and colour blind to boot, and ended up on a different path.

A man might well join the military with the most sincere intentions. But the American military is not and has not been for a long, long time about defending America, and anyone who thinks he can seriously turn a blind eye to the rampant abuse of military power and still call himself rendering a service to his country is deluded.

When was the last time you stopped a doctor and thanked him for putting himself in a profession that saves countless lives every day? When was the last time you stopped a venture capitalist and thanked him for helping to create the jobs that keep the economy afloat? When was the last time you stopped a mortgage banker and thanked him for helping Americans realise the dream of owning their own home? Why not? Because there's no point. Practically every person, in every profession, is doing something that furthers the interests of his country. It would be idiotic to try to make a big list of who all does what and have a thread dedicated to the various relative contributions of different professions.

You join the military (or for that matter become a policeman) and you've taken a job that pays terribly, is physically challenging in some cases, and which can be dangerous. If that's your thing, more power to you. I just don't think that it warrants everybody getting all doe-eyed about it any more than National Secretary's Day makes me want to thank those brave men and women who keep the stapler full and field phone calls and such.

Phaedrus

lander · May 28, 2004

Excellent post Phaedrus.

I often think that the majority of these "thanks for protecting us" blubs are nothing more than feable attempts at political correctness.

lander · May 28, 2004

Oh, before I forget.

I have the utmost respect for the soldiers that enlist to clean there life, set themselves on the right path, and work hard to provide for their families.

I have little regard for the bravados or the vision questers.

jimbutorac · May 28, 2004

Lander & Phaedrus,

Part of me thinks you guys just want to be contrarians and enjoy the resulting attention.

Yesterday in Smyrna, Georgia, they held a memorial for a Viet Nam vet who was killed by so-called "friendly fire" at the age of 18 years old. The memorial was attended by his mother, his sisters, his commanding officer, fellow vets, high school friends and over 1,000 other residents of Smyrna.

Now, you guys might put this down as "political correctness", however, I like to think of it as people paying respect to the people who have put their lives on the line.

If you really wanted to make your point, instead of remotely offering opinions behind your keyboard, why not venture to a Memorial Day Dedication in any town near you and let them know that those that sacrificed their lives are not any more wothy of respect "than the brave men and women who keep their stapler full and answer phone calls and such"?

catch my drift?

Phaedrus · May 29, 2004

LOL@Mudbone

I have done exactly that and more on numerous occasions. I am not one given to keeping my special feelings in.

It's a shame the kid died in Vietnam from friendly fire. It's a shame he lost out on ever realising his hopes and dreams in life, which almost certainly did not involve being accidentally shot by one of his own teammates on the other side of the world. It's a shame he died for nothing -- for absolutely nothing, for a stupid shitty cause that only the truly deluded or plainly idiotic could possibly have supported (the "Domino Effect.") It's a shame his family and townspeople can only assauge their grief by ascribing false significance to his death, cheapening what little bit of life he was afforded before it was taken away from him.

Phaedrus

Oceans11 · May 29, 2004

I like to give thanks/respect for what those blokes gave up. Its the ultimate sacrifice.
Its the least I can do.

If you asked a S.Korean I feel sure that they'd be pretty grateful too.
Not a bad looking place to live compared to the North, the political side is ongoing, c'est la vie.
Vietnam was an extension of Korea, it went wrong, but much of the motivation behind it was the success of the Korean operation.

Europe was grateful for WW 2 help/rescue and has enjoyed relative peace and prosperity since then.

Japan worked out well, and saved a lot of SE Asia places from a brutal regime at the same time.

US entry in WW 1 brought a massive european killing fields stalemate to a conclusion.

Can't say I agree with belittling those achievements.
Theres nothing theoretical about them, and world trade/co-operation stemmed from much of what was done.

----------------------------------------

A different kinda thread.
The Socialist lefty dude defending military action,
and the gun toting righty psycho slagging it off.

The world is too small for an isolationist mentality, and it has been like that for a long time.
Isolationists, like Royalists, dream of the past.
But we all live in the practical non fantasy present.

----------------------------
BTW WW 2 was a war of annihilation, the likes of which will not be seen again.
Being on time for anything?
Survival was what WW 2 was all about, nothing more nothing less.
And tens of millions didn't survive.
WW 2 was kill, or be killed.
Nothing theoretical about that chit.

[This message was edited by eek on May 29, 2004 at 08:17 AM.]

TheFunkMonkey · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mudbone:
Lander & Phaedrus,

Part of me thinks you guys just want to be contrarians and enjoy the resulting attention.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Folks, we might have a winner!

JP just wanted to thank the Vets for sacrificing their lives. Amazingly, Lander & Phaedrus somehow spun JP's comments into yet another anti-government colloquy.

I thought *I* was cynical and jaded. But this is too much! It is Memorial Day weekend, can't we just say "good job" to the Vets and save the government bashing for next week?

lander · May 29, 2004

>> Folks, we might have a winner!
If you're referring to Phaedrus and I then I suspect that "you would have winners" as Phaedrus are neither the same person nor do we have traits akin to those "allegedly" of the holy trinity.

>> JP just wanted to thank the Vets for
>> sacrificing their lives. Amazingly, Lander
>> & Phaedrus somehow spun JP's comments into
>> yet another anti-government colloquy.
I didn't mention anything about a government, so I'm not sure why you miscomprehended my simple post. I was simply agreeing with Phaedrus that modern American soldiers have not "died for our freedom" as so many feel-gooders like to falsely assert.

>> I thought *I* was cynical and jaded. But
>> this is too much! It is Memorial Day
>> weekend, can't we just say "good job" to
>> the Vets and save the government bashing
>> for next week?
I have the utmost respect for any soldiers that braved WWI and/or WWII, but aside from that there is not a single American soldier that has fought for us - thus there is nothing to be overly thankful for.

Do you want a "good job?" Then fine, like I said, I'll tell every man/woman that enlisted for the reason that they had to - whether it be to get a new start from a troubled past or because the military was the best way to provide for their family. Those men and women get a "good job" for being good human beings, but so do countless "regular citizens" that we never take the time to appreciate.

You've mentioned government twice, making it two more times that I have. I didn't mention it because it would be insensitive. Perhaps another day I'll enlighten you with my thoughts that you seem to eager to provoke out of me.

Phaedrus · May 29, 2004

posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I like to give thanks/respect for what those blokes gave up. Its the ultimate sacrifice.
Its the least I can do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me try to clarify something here: a guy packs his shit, flies across an ocean to a country where he knows no one, holds no currency and doesn't speak the language, and runs in front of the guns of the people invading or otherwise menacing that nation, is doing something brave. My contention above, if you'll read it, has nothing to do with whether or not soldiers, particularly veterans, are brave.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
If you asked a S.Korean I feel sure that they'd be pretty grateful too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just not enough to start taking care of themselves, not even after fifty-one years. Entire civilisations have come and gone in the time it's going to take SK to get their shit together.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Vietnam was an extension of Korea, it went wrong, but much of the motivation behind it was the success of the Korean operation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vietnam started wrong. It didn't "go wrong."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Europe was grateful for WW 2 help/rescue and has enjoyed relative peace and prosperity since then.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like most of the rest of the world, most of Europe has not hesitated to take a shit on the U.S. at any available opportunity in the last sixty years. Love those guns and tanks, adore that foreign aid and venture capital, get a stiffy over the best-in-world Treasury debt, otherwise kindly fúck right off, Sam.

I wonder if Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan appreciate WWII quite so much?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
US entry in WW 1 brought a massive european killing fields stalemate to a conclusion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And set the wheels in motion for the rise of the USSR, the Nazis and the Fascists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Can't say I agree with belittling those achievements.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't say I agree with the near deification that posterity has bestowed upon them either. World better off without Hitler? Probably. World better off with USSR than Hitler? Guess it depends on whether or not you're one of the tens of millions killed under Stalin or hundreds of millions terrorised by him and his ideological heirs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Theres nothing theoretical about them, and world trade/co-operation stemmed from much of what was done.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing theoretical about any of my points above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
A different kinda thread. The Socialist lefty dude defending military action, and the gun toting righty psycho slagging it off.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's your take on what I said, okidoki. BTW, I take exception to being characterised as a psychopath. BTWx2, you have vociferously criticised the U.S. military budget and deployment in the past, if I am not mistaken. Just not that section of the budget and deployment that saved your island from being relegated to posterity. So much for not being isolationist.

posted by The Funk Monkey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
JP just wanted to thank the Vets for sacrificing their lives. Amazingly, Lander & Phaedrus somehow spun JP's comments into yet another anti-government colloquy.

I thought *I* was cynical and jaded. But this is too much! It is Memorial Day weekend, can't we just say "good job" to the Vets and save the government bashing for next week?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's never a bad time to call the government out for its evils, such as building a military powerful enough to fight at least one foreign war per year for decades and masquerading the reprehensible practice as "protecting freedom" only so that the gullible will wave their little plastic flags tearfully and thank those brave souls for defending America from Somalia, Grenada, and other such would-be global dominators.

Phaedrus

Lt.Dan · May 29, 2004

JP,

You are absolutely right. Politics aside, everyone is looking have a government that expesses their own personal moral and philosophical views. I give very short shrift to ignorance, especially monday morning quarterbacks who have watched too much TV or read too many books. Unfortunately men and women sometimes pay the ultimate price to ensure that the process will be there to like or scorn. The Veterans who went before are not here to defend their duty. Only fools make judgement on things that they have never witnessed. If you were not there then you can only therorize what really happened. Thank you for your post, not for me but for those who cannot. As the political season heats up, I will support the candidate that I think will be the best for America. Never put me in the same category as some of the people who responded to your well-meaning thread.

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan

Phaedrus · May 29, 2004

Sorry for reading so darn many books Dan. But my position is not one based on ignorance, and is one that is irrefutable -- the military of which you are so proud is not a "service" to anyone but politicians, and it is only those patriotic heartstrings that get played into making good people such as yourself believe that it is.

Also:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Politics aside, everyone is looking have a government that expesses their own personal moral and philosophical views.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty sure that your "politics aside" point is the very definition of politics.

Phaedrus

Oceans11 · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
BTW, I take exception to being characterised as a psychopath. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not the Hitchcock dude I refer to...

Its the successful businessman.

"We often think of psychopaths as the disturbed criminals who capture headlines and crowd the nation's prisons. But not all psychopaths are killers. They are more likely to be men and women you know who move through life with supreme self-confidence -- but without a conscience.

Completely lacking in conscience and feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."

Sounds like capitalism to me.

TheFunkMonkey · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Originally posted by lander:
>> Folks, we might have a winner!

If you're referring to Phaedrus and I then I suspect that "you would have winners" as Phaedrus are neither the same person nor do we have traits akin to those "allegedly" of the holy trinity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was referring to Mudbone, who proposed the theory that "you guys just want to be contrarians and enjoy the resulting attention."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
>> JP just wanted to thank the Vets for
>> sacrificing their lives. Amazingly, Lander
>> & Phaedrus somehow spun JP's comments into
>> yet another anti-government colloquy.

I didn't mention anything about a government, so I'm not sure why you miscomprehended my simple post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phaedrus said:

"The American military has not been focused on defending America in over a century, and is nothing more than the enforcement arm of the political class today."

Although you didn't make any comments about the government, Phaedrus certainly did.

Anyway, I agree with some of Phaedrus' arguments. However, I still don't think this is the proper thread. Lots of Americans *did* join the military because they thought they were saving the world and all that idealistic bullshit. It isn't their fault lots of rich old men decided to abuse the military in order to achieve political and economic goals! So why can't we have one thread without all the in-fighting?

Lt.Dan · May 29, 2004

Phaedrus,

That's Lt. Dan, Sir, to you. If you don't respect the man at least respect the rank. This is something pukes like you will never comprehend!

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan

Phaedrus · May 29, 2004

Dan, I would respect the man long, long before I respect the rank. THat holds true for lieutenants, presidents, vicars, doctors, co-pilots, assistant district managers in charge of marketing, head cashiers, dukes, bishops and all the other assorted things people cling to in order to feel special.

That, in particular, is nothing I have against military men per se. But of course as I said a couple of times above I have nothing against military men per se anyway -- just against the mythology built around them, a false halo.

Phaedrus