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excellent discussion, while off topic; was more informative.
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The funny part: everyone calling me a wannabe crook; yet betting offshore themselves, which is strictly illegal whenever big-brother feels like pursuing it, PERIOD!
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Of course that does not apply to the people who are already "offshore/overseas".
 

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sammy,

I am baffled myself at the "just pay the tax" recommendations in an offshore forum of a players advocate website of all places. I would have thought 98% of the readers here are in favor of tax-free hassle-free fair gambling.
 

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Darryl

You have a point there in that rapid cash-in/cash-out with e-gold will cost a pretty penny in fees (to be fair this is true of lots of other online payment systems.) However, even given the additional fees, some of the other benefits (like no "verification" of accounts, e-gold's status as a Nevis corporation, which makes it immune to U.S. civil [NOT criminal] judgements, instant clearing of transactions 24/7, global availability, very cheap p2p fees vs. other systems etc.) may outweigh that cost for some people -- to say nothing of the whole "using gold as money" thing.

Players who tend to load up before a season and draw down periodic income will not suffer so much from this problem -- and on top of that, unlike Neteller and many other competitors there are thousands of online merchants who accept e-gold (including Amazon.com, where you can buy most anything by going through the GoldStores portal) so "cashing out" may not always be neccessary, strictly speaking.

sammy

Yeah, this sort of veered off of the original question. I meant to mention that all of this talk about e-gold did not mean to imply that I think it is a solution to your problem; I was only addressing Darryl's comments and questions which happened to have popped up in this thread.

There's some stuff relevant to what you're asking that I just would not post on a public forum in a million years; feel free to e-mail me about it at the address above if you want to.


Phaedrus
 

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Very interseting discussion guys....

Agree with a number of points on this issue, just touching on a few...

I have often thought about how I would try to bring in any large sum of cash after having run up an offshore account...

Personally I'm looking to bring in as much as I can and pay the least amount of tax, if any at all. The government pisses away billions of dollars policing the world and fighting other people's wars, rebuilding other countries while ours is aging to pieces.

We fought in Vietnem, Korea, we kicked the Iraqi army out of Kuwait, then 10 years later decide the Saddam is still an asshole and oust him, when if we were smart about it we would have done it ten years ago while world opinion was on our side.

Most of the east coast cities are old, along with the bridges, water and sewage systems, buildings and such......Natural disasters such as hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, fires, earthquakes wipe out what age hasn't already gotten.

The national debt....can anyone even calculate it any more???

We lost 2 space shuttles and there is still a hole in the ground where 2 world trade centers were located, yet our government seems to be trying its damn best to rebuild Iraq and all these other wartorn countries. It didn't work in Bosnia and it wont work in Iraq with all the different factions there.

How many Koreans and Vietnamese died in our civil war???

One thing that no one has appeared to mention, if we pay taxes on our gambling income from offshore wagering is Uncle Sam going to let us get a refund on years that we declare gambling losses......I doubt it.

We have all these crummy forms of gambling legalized in most portions of our country such as pickle cards, keno, state sponsored scratch cards and lotteries....thier take on these forms of gambling is too high for the public to overcome, yet there are casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City who can't run an internet based sportsbook to compete with the growing offshore market. This is probably the best shot the gambler has in making any money, that being sports gambling. Why can't the government allow U.S. casinos to operate sportsbooks on the net?

Basically put if the government is so concerned with the well being of all these foreign countries then maybe Bush and his colleagues should move there, spend thier own money on the restoration, place thier sons and daughters in the military to fight for these things, we can find leaders for this country that care about this country.

Personally I'll cut as much taxes off of whatever I make from offshore wagering, and I'll spend the profits here, at the stores where I buy my food and clothing, the gas stations where I fill up, and the other places here where products are trucked in and employees are needed to interact with the public. A lot more people here will get value from my money than if I was giving it to the government just to watch it get pissed away thousands of miles away from here on another continent.

If I ever found any large sum of government money, you can bet your ass that I'm going to keep it. Period.
 

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get checks from your books, small amts, about 1500 or so and just cash them. just don't be cashing 10 checks a month at one bank. maybe 2 a month. open 3 or 4 checking accounts w/ different banks if you need to cash more checks a month.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darryl Parsons:
I would have thought 98% of the readers here are in favor of tax-free hassle-free fair gambling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darryl,

I'm all in favor of it. But it doesn't exist legally in my jurisdiction. My advice is simply based on the reality of the situation; the likely outcome of cheating the IRS is getting nailed. It isn't worth it. Maybe what you meant to say is, "I would have thought 98% of the readers here would advocate risking jail time in order to earn tax free income". But, that simply isn't the case. As I said, I didn't write the rules of this game and my opinion is simply that--an opinion. You're welcome to take your chances.
 

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My advice is to own up to it when the notice comes in the mail that income has not been reported.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skyweasel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darryl Parsons:
I would have thought 98% of the readers here are in favor of tax-free hassle-free fair gambling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darryl,

I'm all in favor of it. But it doesn't exist legally in my jurisdiction. My advice is simply based on the reality of the situation; the likely outcome of cheating the IRS is getting nailed. It isn't worth it. Maybe what you meant to say is, "I would have thought 98% of the readers here would advocate risking jail time in order to earn tax free income". But, that simply isn't the case. As I said, I didn't write the rules of this game and my opinion is simply that--an opinion. You're welcome to take your chances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you have a regular job and decide not to pay taxes, the IRS will get you. I think the chances of getting caught not paying taxes on sports betting profits are very low, unless you are really stupid.
 

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What I would like to know is : If I had net winnings on the plus side from one sportsbook; but larger losses to two other sportsbooks, do I need to worry about reporting it?

I doubt any of the books will send me a statement. (Only have one active account now anyway)
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phaedrus:
Kewl. I also recommend Alan Greenspan's "http://www.gold-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html," penned back before he became a troglodyte for the Federal Reserve.


Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yea, back in the day when he used to sit around with Ayn Rand and do shots.....

That would have been a hell of a cocktail party to get loaded at and start running one's mouth.
 

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Why not check with a tax law professional in your area for do's and dont's regarding any and all legality involved for you (the individual) player. Find out if you can call any larger $ transfers from outside the US gambling gains, and if you are able to file gambling losses also. Most likely player options will difer from state to state. For all I know H.R Block might have the answers for some players. Bottom line is don't try anything foolish that can lead to possible IRS or worse problems. Post 9-11, something that may seem harmless like a 20 dime bank transfer, could be a potential serious offense. Due dilligence is the name of the game, so please explore all your options, before you proceed.


JMHO. wil.
 

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Skyweasel,

You are already breaking the law by gambling on the internet so I'm not sure I can see any logic in what you're saying. I'm no lawyer or accountant (actuary..is that close enough? we prepare some really complex tax forms sometimes
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) but I don't think the IRS has an income category for illegal income. The gambling income referred to in the tax code as far as I know is LEGAL gambling income. To fill out your tax return properly you would have to put the amount in the "other" category and put an asterisk saying "illegal income". Kind of absurd, no?

To treat the case properly according to the law they would have to make a ruling on you first about the illegal income. But to do that they would have to investigate ALL your internet gambling activities since that was your illegal activity, not just the check you received. Then if the courts decide you can keep some or all of the money, they will give the payment a name which can be classified according to the tax code. Then THAT is what you will have to report on your return.

If there are any lawyers out there I'd appreciate some comments because I'm not 100% sure this is how it works but it seems logical to me.
 

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gambling,drug dealing, and prostituion are all illegal. Escorts/hookers don't pay taxes. Drug dealers don't pay taxes. So, why should sports bettors pay taxes.I don't get it.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darryl Parsons:
I'm no lawyer or accountant (actuary..is that close enough? we prepare some really complex tax forms sometimes
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) but I don't think the IRS has an income category for illegal income. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about that. Maybe they do. Read on.


Money Laundering - Whose Business is it?

Dennis Crawford
Director, National Operations Division
IRS Criminal Investigation
(Published in the March 1998 issue of Banking Security magazine)

What is Money Laundering?

Money Laundering is a method used by individuals to try to make illegally gained or untaxed money appear to be legitimate by passing it through a legitimate bank or business.

"Why is IRS involved in Money Laundering?"

No matter what the source, all income earned, both legal and illegal, is taxable and has the potential of becoming involved in crimes which fall within the investigative jurisdiction of IRS Criminal Investigation (CI). When individuals or corporations attempt to corrupt the American system of taxation through fraudulent or illegal activities, CI special agents step-in to enforce the tax and money laundering laws. Financial investigations often lead right to the door of the drug kingpin, the fraudulent telemarketer, the money launderer, or corrupt individuals working in such professions as health care providers, political leaders, return preparers or even the local grocery store operator. In a financial investigation, CI special agents follow the movement of money through paper and computerized records. The link between where the money comes from, who gets it, when it is received and where it is stored or deposited, can provide proof of criminal activity and ultimately this proof can result in a conviction.

"Why are Banks Involved in Money Laundering?"

Since the inception of IRS Criminal Investigation in 1919, its mission has been to investigate financial crimes. And, one of the most effective tools for documenting financial crime has been information obtained from banks and other financial institutions. It is not surprising, then, that a unique and long-lasting partnership was developed years ago between the IRS and the banking industry. It is a partnership that took on more meaning in 1970 with the enactment of the Bank Records and Foreign Transactions Act ("Bank Secrecy Act") and later, in 1986, with the enactment of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act (which had substantive amendments to Title 31). Both acts required banks and other financial institutions to became even more involved in helping solve financial crimes by filing Currency Transaction Reports (CTRs), Suspicious Currency Transaction Reports, and Criminal Referral Forms (CRFs). On April 1, 1996, the suspicious activity reporting system went into effect, and the new Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) is now used in place of the CRF and the Suspicious Currency Transaction Reports.

No Smoking Gun!!

When IRS CI initiates an investigation, there is no smoking gun; no chalk outline of a body; no blood to test for DNA. Many IRS investigations begin with a simple piece of paper: a CTR, and more recently, a SAR.

The following examples demonstrate that the banks, their managers and employees have a very significant role in halting money laundering.

Bank Teller Testifies

In California, two Criminal Referral Forms (CRF) were filed by a financial institution. The CRFs reported that approximately $124,000 in currency had been deposited by an individual during two separate six week periods. The deposits were structured in amounts less than $10,000. According to the indictment, a bank teller told the IRS about a transaction in which she believed the individual was attempting to evade the monetary instrument recordkeeping requirement because the individual attempted to purchase two cashier’s checks, each for less than $3,000, in two separate transactions. The individual told the teller that by conducting the transaction in this manner, the teller would not have to complete the monetary instrument log. The teller refused to complete the transaction and informed him that she would be recording the transaction in the monetary instrument log.

Armed with this valuable information from the bank, IRS initiated an investigation that, according to the indictment, led to a U.S. ****** worker whose annual salary was $40,000. The IRS and ****** Inspector’s investigation ended with the conviction of the ****** employee who embezzled approximately $815,000 from the U.S. ****** Service.

The indictment stated that in an effort to keep authorities from discovering his embezzlement, the individual attempted to launder money diverted from the ****** bulk mail customers and structure his bank deposits to avoid the filing of Currency Transaction Reports. The U.S. Attorney dubbed it the largest embezzlement in U.S. ****** history.

The ****** worker was sentenced to 41 months in prison and ordered to pay more than $815,000 in restitution.

Bank Manager Stops Money Laundering at Auto Dealership

In Massachusetts, an owner of an auto dealership was found guilty of structuring cash transactions. The IRS special agent’s affidavit, filed with the court, stated that the auto dealership owner called the bank to complain that the bank was "harassing his employees" by filing out a Currency Transaction Report (CTR). The affidavit further explained that the owner instructed his employees to "break up" the daily cash receipts to keep cash deposits below the $10,000 threshold and repeat the process over and over again.

According to the indictment, the IRS met with the Bank’s branch manager who advised that the bank became suspicious of the cash deposits and began preparing CTRs for all large cash deposits, even if the amount deposited was less than $10,000. The branch manager agreed to continue preparing CTRs documenting each suspicious cash deposit. A total of $2,188,590 in structured deposits was documented by 136 CTRs.

At sentencing, in addition to jail time, the Massachusetts auto dealership owner was ordered to forfeit $361,000 worth of American automobiles and funds.

Bank Suspicious of Structuring Transactions

A Bank in Boston filed a Criminal Referral Form (CRF) with IRS alleging that one of its customers was structuring the depositing of checks to evade the currency reporting requirements. The CRFs, documented in the indictment, listed 17 transactions conducted by a local bar which totaled over $150,000 in a 25 day period. According to the indictment, these deposits led to one of the largest stolen goods organizations operating in the US. The organization dealt almost exclusively in the over-the-counter pharmaceutical and other items carried in drug stores. This was a ring of professional shoplifters who stole drug store items, fenced them to a middle man who then sold the stolen items to a distributor. The two ringleaders were charged with racketeering, money laundering, tax fraud, mail and wire fraud and conspiracy.

New SAR Stops Illegal Money Transmitting Business

One the nation’s largest banks located in New York filed a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) indicating that an individual had made a series of apparent structured deposits. According to the indictment filed with the court, each deposit was slightly under the $10,000 reporting threshold. After depositing the currency to his account, the individual completed a wire transfer request to the Philippines in the exact same amount. The SAR indicated that the individual claimed to be a money remitter. The indictment states that further investigation revealed that his license was suspended for failing to comply with the state licensing requirements. He subsequently plead guilty to USC 18 1960, operation of an illegal money transmitting business, was sentenced to probation and forfeited $100,000.

Bankers Uncover Narcotics Trafficking

Currency Transaction Reports filed by several banks uncovered a businessman who had attempted to profit from the narcotics industry. Several CTRs indicated that an office clerk was depositing large sums of currency in bank accounts. According to the indictment, the CTRs indicated that the clerk provided different addresses and social security numbers on the CTRs. The indictment further explained that the clerk was attempting to hide the fact that the business owner operated several businesses that catered to narcotics traffickers. The CTRs provided valuable leads to identify bank accounts and assisted with the probable cause needed to obtain a search warrant. A luxurious home and more than $10,000 of drug money was seized. The clerk and business man pled guilty to conspiring to evade income taxes.

Detroit Data Center Finds Fraud

Computer print-outs generated by the IRS Detroit Data Center showed numerous Suspicious Currency Transaction Reports being filed by various Western Union outlets in the Virginia area. An investigation led to the identification of a number of individuals involved in "smurfing" activity of conducting financial transactions under $10,000 to avoid the reporting requirements. Following the money led directly to the leaders of a multimillion-dollar marijuana operation based in Virginia and California.

Whose Business is it?

Money laundering is not a victimless crime: Not only are innocent people "duped" by various schemes, but the underground economy (which is untaxed) continues to grow. Understandably, the amount of tax revenue collected is a barometer of the overall economic strength of our nation and helps reduce our nation’s financial deficit.

The financial institutions and the IRS already know that money laundering is every one’s business.

published March 1998

http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/articles/docmoneylaunderingbus.htm
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oldmantime:
What I would like to know is : If I had net winnings on the plus side from one sportsbook; but larger losses to two other sportsbooks, do I need to worry about reporting it?(<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, not reporting gambling income, even if you lost money that year is considered a crime. You must report gambling winnings as income, then zero this income out with equal losses on Schedule A. You must have records to back up these losses. See this article.

http://www.rbstaxes.com/article_9907.htm
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darryl Parsons:
Skyweasel,

You are already breaking the law by gambling on the internet so I'm not sure I can see any logic in what you're saying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at it this way. If you get arrested for placing illegal wagers on the Internet, this is a misdemeanor... maybe $1000 fine and probation if it is your 1st offense. If you get arrested for tax evasion, that is a felony and you could possibly go to jail for years. Al Capone spent the remainder of his life in prison for tax evasion by not reporting income from his brothels.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fathead:
Al Capone spent the remainder of his life in prison for tax evasion by not reporting income from his brothels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That represents an apples to oranges comparison.

The average gambler may only neglect to report 1 to 50k in gambling earnings. This only amounts to a few thousand dollars of tax revenue if you are at the high end. I don't see any jail terms much less prison terms for such a crime if one plays it prudently.
 

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I hope Jackson Hewlett has a good person that knows how to handle this. The Only record I have is deposits to Neteller from my bank and deposits back to my bank from Neteller. The money going out was greater than I received.

Oh Man another restless night. I'm talking about winning less than 1k and loosing slighly less than 2k ! Unbelievable.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oldmantime:
I hope Jackson Hewlett has a good person that knows how to handle this. The Only record I have is deposits to Neteller from my bank and deposits back to my bank from Neteller. The money going out was greater than I received.

Oh Man another restless night. I'm talking about winning less than 1k and loosing slighly less than 2k ! Unbelievable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not worth losing sleep over, oldman. Print out a Neteller report for 2003 and they can probably use the outgoing as losses and incoming as wins if that is all you have. Don't sweat it.
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