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I had a swell time at Fahrenheit 9/11, Michael Moore's documentary about George Bush's dubious progress from Florida to Iraq. It's his best movie--funny, heartbreaking, outraged and outrageous--and deserves its huge success. When did you last see a muckraking exposé of events that are still unfolding? The film should make the media blush for its torpor and fake judiciousness and embedment with the Administration. Moore displays footage never before seen of events most Americans know nothing about, unless they read The Nation, because the media haven't told them. Did you know, for example, that the Congressional Black Caucus could not get a single Democratic senator to lend the required signature to its formal protest of the certification of Bush's victory in 2000? Did you know Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador, dined with Bush on September 13, 2001, the day before flights began that would carry more than a hundred Saudis out of the country, including dozens of members of the extended bin Laden family? Have you seen wounded and dead Iraqis on TV, or interviews with mutilated soldiers, disillusioned soldiers--or with parents of dead GIs? If Joe Darby hadn't jump-started the Abu Ghraib scandal with those photos, you might well be seeing the brutalization of Iraqi prisoners for the first time in a brief scene in Fahrenheit 9/11.

Moore keeps his impish-blimpish on-screen presence down, but there are some hilarious bits--learning that Congress hadn't read the Patriot Act before passing it, he drives around the Capitol in an ice cream truck blasting it through the sound system. The best comedy, as always with Moore, is the found kind: He interviews Craig Unger (House of Bush, House of Saud) across the street from the Saudi Embassy and is immediately accosted by a Secret Service agent ("I'll take that as a yes," he replies genially when the agent won't comment when Moore asks if it's unusual for the Secret Service to guard foreign embassies). He tags along with two oleaginous Marine recruiters on the prowl in a down-market Flint, Michigan, shopping mall and films them as they swoop down on one young black man and practically offer him a recording contract on the spot when he mentions he's interested in music.

The odd thing is, I found the movie immensely cheering and energizing, even though I don't agree with its main thesis, drawn from Unger, that Bush's oil-business interests, particularly his close financial and personal connections with the Saudis, drove his post-9/11 decisions to go easy on Saudi Arabia and invade Afghanistan and Iraq. I think President Gore might well have invaded Afghanistan too--although, who knows, maybe the Republicans would have thwarted him out of spite. I also think that key promoters of the war in Iraq--Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld--were motivated by a sincere, if deranged, belief that overthrowing Saddam would usher in US- and Israel-friendly capitalist democracies all over the Middle East. They had, after all, been pushing for regime change for years. Like all Moore's movies, Fahrenheit 9/11 is somewhat muddled and self-contradictory. Just as Bowling for Columbine excoriated the NRA while arguing that guns don't kill people, Americans kill people, Fahrenheit 9/11 simultaneously argues that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are wrong and unnecessary and that we need to send more troops; that the Bush Administration does too much and too little to protect the country from another terrorist attack; that Bush is an idiot and a lightweight and that he is a master of calculation. Actually, come to think of it, that's not such a contradiction--but I wish Moore had acknowledged Bush's obvious political skills. It's not easy to fool 40 percent of the people 100 percent of the time.

Well, OK, so Moore isn't Mark Twain, he's a propagandist who can be funny and angry at the same time. He takes a lot of cheap shots--Paul Wolfowitz slicking back his hair with saliva, John Ashcroft crooning a patriotic anthem of his own composition, Bush smirking and looking shifty while waiting to go on air and announce the invasion of Iraq--but the point of these vignettes is not just to make us laugh and feel superior, it's to undo the aura of assurance and invincibility with which this Administration cloaks itself while it spreads fear across the land. Watching Bush sit in that elementary classroom pretending to read My Pet Goat for seven long minutes after being notified of the second plane crashing into the World Trade Center, you see a man who is paralyzed and stunned, who hasn't a clue, because there's no one there to tell him what to do, no stage set, like the flight deck of USS Abraham Lincoln, and no audience before which to look manly and resolute.

Moore's critics are going over the movie frame by frame, but he's phrased his most controversial contentions, about the Saudi flights, carefully. He doesn't actually say they took off while the airports were closed, and he doesn't say the bin Ladens weren't interviewed, although a viewer could get that impression. Other complaints seem trivial. Does it really matter if Moore says only one child of a congressperson or senator is serving in Iraq, and doesn't mention that a few others are in the armed forces, just not there? Of course, the scene in which Moore tries to hand out recruitment literature to politicos is unfair: It's not as if parents can enlist their kids. The scene works, though, because Moore's basic point is right: Politicians whose own kids are safely ensconced in the Ivies send off to die in Iraq the children of women like Lila Lipscomb, the vibrant working-class Flint woman Moore follows in the second half of the movie, who puts out the flag every morning and who has always encouraged her kids to join the military as a path to a better life. Her grief and rage when her son is killed in Iraq are unbearable to watch. Surrounded by her large, interracial family, she reads her son's last letter home: "He got us out here for nothing whatsoever. I'm so furious right now, Mama." There are plenty of mothers and fathers like her--but you don't see Katie Couric ("Navy SEALs rock!" ) interviewing them.

Take your friends, your relatives, your book club, your drinking buddies, take teenagers (it's R-rated), take that nice Republican in the office, take David Brooks and the staff of The Weekly Standard, and the Council of Economic Advisers! And then send your ticket stub to George W. Bush, so he'll know you're watching.

The Nation.com
 

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" Huge Success"

again more bullshit to support your views...

this compilation of lies and deceit drew 20 million on a WEEKEND...

Spiderman drew almost 3 TIMES that on a wednesday release!!!!!!

HUGE SUCCESS????.....in the leftist mind 10 people would be a huge success....this is really the most laughable lie ive heard yet....
 

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I suppose the biggest opening day draw for any documentary anywhere in the history of film COULD be called a success, but then again I'm not sure
 

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Well, it was the highest grossing documentary of all time after only one weekend. It was number one on the weekend it opened. And all this on 70% fewer screens than any of the other movies it charted with.

For what it is, it's kicking some ass.
 

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I believe a "documentary" documents real things in a factual way....this was not a documentary but a parody...

IF i was to call THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST a documentary(which it was more factual than Liar Moores last 2 films combined) then Liar Moores film was an outright failure.....
 

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Have you seen it? Moore himself claims that this is his completely biased opinion; and there are plenty of truisms in the film. My main criticism of the film is that it left way too much stuff out that would be even more damning, because Moore paid too much mind to the business/commercial motive behind the invasion. Those of you on the right criticising this film should be grateful that Moore dumbed this one down to appeal to the masses who haven't been paying attention ... it could've been alot worse.
 

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"it could've been alot worse."

feel free to fill us in on what he left out. i'm anxiously waiting for you to post these "facts" he left out.. woulda, coulda, shoulda.....The lefty motto
marsububu.gif
 

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The very first lie it is NOT by definition a documentary.A Documentary must be OBJECTIVE which this movie is not.

doc·u·men·ta·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.
Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patriot:
The very first lie it is NOT by definition a documentary.A Documentary must be OBJECTIVE which this movie is not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you know about objectivity? Zippety doo dah..
 

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I know what it is and what it isn't.Its a propaganda film.

doc·u·men·ta·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.
Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.
 

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take an editorial position. There is no such thing as an 'unbiased observer' when it comes to news media and reporting on sociopolitical subjects.

But I wouldn't call Moore's film a documentary anyway. After seeing it, I'd say it had some good laughs, but it was actually kinda weak in a lot of places. It wouldn't kill you to go see it, then you could come back here and actually have something original to say, instead of just regurging some other fellow's limp harangue. Go for it.
bigsmiley.gif
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What would you know about objectivity? Zippety doo dah<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never made the claim that I was fxckity fxck face.

I've got more honesty in my arm pit than that fxckin gross sloth of a man has in his entire chewed bubble gum ass..by the way.
 

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sfeiner: I don't have a tremendous amount of time to dedicate to you all the other facts that Moore missed out on, but here's a few links for you to check out if you are indeed interested:

On how some Admin officials (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Perle, Wolfowitz) were working to remove Saddam before 9/11:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2000-1997.htm

For copy of some of Bush's speeches in which he insinuates an Iraq connection to 9/11:
http://www.bushcountry.org/bush_speeches/president_bush_speeches_index.htm

Plus Moore never discusses the religious connection, which, according to Evangelical Christianity (Bush's chosen source of spiritual enhancement) needs the Christians and the Muslims to go head-to-head. Probably only a minor part of the invasion, however. Maybe more of a perk in Bush's eyes.

Moore only focuses on the cash prize for the invaders, which has alot of merit (I truly do not see how anyone cannot see this fact) ... in fact, while you're visiting the PNAC website take down a few names and do a search on them at disinfopedia.com ... you'll note the connections of many of these people, who are most definitely policy-shapers, with various oil and defense corporations, such as UNOCAL and Lockheed Martin.

Just a couple of examples of stuff Moore left out.
 

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ok, now were getting somewhere.we can discuss facts, we read REAL history. i find it quite honorable when a person at least attempts to back up his point of view with facts and i thank you for doing so...

now to point #1...i have no doubt that our govt. was working to remove sadaam before 9/11...just as im sure today they are working to remove the leaders of SUDAN, CUBA, IRAN, N. KOREA, and hopefully FRANCE and the U.N. as well...i have no problem with trying to make the world a better place. giving financial backing to opposition groups, selling them weapons and giving them intelligence info is by far a better route than sending in our own soldiers....SOOOOOO you may see this as a bad thing but its the way things are done in a very unfair world....

point #2..."Bush's speeches in which he insinuates an Iraq connection"......well im reading them as fast as i can and i havent found this link yet...to be frank i kinda expect to find SOME SORT of insuation that sadaam COULD have been involved but so far ive seen nothing even close....however the leftist are not and have not been saying there was an "insinuation". they are saying he said "there was a connection"...and THAT i want to see! you see due to the fact that were able to label BUSH#1 a liar (even though the ACTUAL lie was told by democrats) they feel they have a huge headstart in labeling BUSH#2 as a liar as well....well Liar Moore just gave it his best shot and still i cant find the lies anywhere. im still reading and if anyone out there can supply me with a direct URL i anxiously await it...

POINT #3..."the religious connection, which, according to Evangelical Christianity (Bush's chosen source of spiritual enhancement) needs the Christians and the Muslims to go head-to-head"....
IM not sure i understand at all where your going with this. YES there are surely evang. christians who believe the end of the world will be a battle between islam and christianity. but people have been predicting and speculating on the end of the world for ever..shortly after christ died a lot of people thought the anti-christ would follow right behind...im sure that when the romans were attempting to dominate the world they thought that was the end. the same could be said of the war for independence, world war 1, world war 2 and a host of others...i think i could have easily been led to believe myself had i lived in that time that hitler was the anti-christ.... would have been hard not too....agree? BUT to insinuate that bush feels that the muslims and christians are now preparing for a end-it -all battle and that he is making his policies based on this belief is a HUGE stretch.....again thats what im taking from what you wrote and if im wrong correct me please...

POINT #4....."Moore only focuses on the cash prize for the invaders, which has alot of merit (I truly do not see how anyone cannot see this fact) "
WELL i could type all day on this but let me try to make it simple and short. would anyone like to name the OTHER companies who had the resources and manpower to do what Halliburton has done?? I dont recall Circle K or Walmart attempting to get in on the reconstruction efforts but maybe they did..by the way if it turns out that HEINZ ketchup has sold a few million gallons of product to the iraqis will you condemn J. KERRY as well???
THE fact that our govt consists of buisnessmen and women with friends and connections to some of the companies involved is again a HUGE stretch to saying that they planned this war for profits sake....profits, WMD'S, the FINAL BATTLE, GWB thought they were behind 911.....which one is it????????
couldnt be what he said it was though could it? naaaaaaaaa Liar Moore said it wasnt so it couldnt be. I find it funny as hell that leftys jump all over this idiots theories about the war but his theoeries about Columbine were laughed at by everyone.....the dumbass should have blamed it on Bush!!!
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sfeiner:
i find it quite honorable when a person at least attempts to back up his point of view with facts and i thank you for doing so...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Her point of view, but thanks.
icon_wink.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> now to point #1...i have no doubt that our govt. was working to remove sadaam before 9/11...just as im sure today they are working to remove the leaders of SUDAN, CUBA, IRAN, N. KOREA, and hopefully FRANCE and the U.N. as well...i have no problem with trying to make the world a better place. giving financial backing to opposition groups, selling them weapons and giving them intelligence info is by far a better route than sending in our own soldiers....SOOOOOO you may see this as a bad thing but its the way things are done in a very unfair world....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, these people were not, at the time of the writings in the link I posted, your government. These were people obsessed, literally, with the scaling back of US foreign policy and military dominance by the Clinton admin and who feel that America as a superpower should never be left challengable. These people, upon Bush's election win, were then appointed to the new administration with their extremist views already in plain site. The PNAC was founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. Kristol is the co-editor of the Weekly Standard (sister mag to the NY Post) and Kagan is a contributing editor there. A quick summary of their media kit notes that their circulation is only 65,000 but it goes to every member of Congress as well as the key lobbyist and other such types in Washington. In other words, this grassroots organisation has some pretty heavy clout, and a very disconcerting agenda that aims to keep the US on top with no potential adversaries. Neo-conservative if I've ever seen it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>point #2..."Bush's speeches in which he insinuates an Iraq connection"......well im reading them as fast as i can and i havent found this link yet...to be frank i kinda expect to find SOME SORT of insuation that sadaam COULD have been involved but so far ive seen nothing even close....however the leftist are not and have not been saying there was an "insinuation". they are saying he said "there was a connection"...and THAT i want to see! you see due to the fact that were able to label BUSH#1 a liar (even though the ACTUAL lie was told by democrats) they feel they have a huge headstart in labeling BUSH#2 as a liar as well....well Liar Moore just gave it his best shot and still i cant find the lies anywhere. im still reading and if anyone out there can supply me with a direct URL i anxiously await it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I apologise for not being able to go through all the speeches, but you'll have to trust me. You can find more at whitehouse.gov but it takes some time. At any rate, there are many paragraphs in which Bush says Saddam, Al Qaeda, 9/11, War on Terror, over and over and over again, to the tune of 7 out of 10 Americans believing Saddam was behind the 9/11 attacks. As for the recent 9/11 commission report, they specifically state that there exists no credible evidence that Saddam was behind 9/11 but do state and explain the examples in which some member of Saddam's organisation met with some members of AQ. However, they also state that no 'collaborative relationship seems to have come from these meetings.' You can find Staff Statement 15 by googling it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>POINT #3..."the religious connection, which, according to Evangelical Christianity (Bush's chosen source of spiritual enhancement) needs the Christians and the Muslims to go head-to-head"....
IM not sure i understand at all where your going with this. YES there are surely evang. christians who believe the end of the world will be a battle between islam and christianity. but people have been predicting and speculating on the end of the world for ever ... BUT to insinuate that bush feels that the muslims and christians are now preparing for a end-it -all battle and that he is making his policies based on this belief is a HUGE stretch.....again thats what im taking from what you wrote and if im wrong correct me please...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I agree this is a stretch. But, frankly, it's the only explanation that I can come up with for why Bush is so blatantly backing Israel, even when they screw up royally. There's something in that whole rapture crap that requires Israel to be a safe state or something like that. Plus, there are LOTS of people who believe in that. www.raptureready.com Their message board is probably the busiest in the country. Certainly the busiest I've ever seen. I don't think Bush is doing what he's doing because he sees 'the rapture' coming, I think he considers himself part of the speeding up process. Listen to his language; who but the religious right use words like 'evildoers?' I mean, seriously??? They love this guy because he speaks their language. Either he's a lying sack of shit about his religious beliefs, or I'm lumping him right in with them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>POINT #4....."Moore only focuses on the cash prize for the invaders, which has alot of merit (I truly do not see how anyone cannot see this fact) "
WELL i could type all day on this but let me try to make it simple and short. would anyone like to name the OTHER companies who had the resources and manpower to do what Halliburton has done?? THE fact that our govt consists of buisnessmen and women with friends and connections to some of the companies involved is again a HUGE stretch to saying that they planned this war for profits sake....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Halliburton may well have been the only company who could do the job. However, the fact that no competitive bidding took place at all, and that these agreements were in place long before the invasion is mighty suspicious, don't you think? Further, if you go back to the PNAC argument, you will note that Cheney is one of their original members and that he was, at that time, in charge of Halliburton. To suggest that war profiteering had nothing whatsoever to do with this invasion is naive. I don't think it was the main reason as Moore suggests, but I think it made complicity easier for the die-hards.

My opinion is that the war is 75% neo-conservative, regime change ideology, 20% cash and 5% religious bullshit. This is just my opinion, tho.
 

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Nice pose SF. And congratulations to Xpanda, who again shows that she is the only leftist on here to actually have an opinion of her own.
 

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"These were people obsessed, literally, with the scaling back of US foreign policy and military dominance by the Clinton admin and who feel that America as a superpower should never be left challengable"

WELL again i have to say i hope that is the truth..we are the the most powerful nation in the history of the world and staying that way could not be more important to me...i couldnt wait for bubba to leave so we could begin repairing his damage and im glad to know that others with much more involvment than myself were there waiting for the same thing...
if you see that as a bad thing fine. thats why your on the left and im on the faaaarrrr right..lol no argument there.

", the fact that no competitive bidding took place at all"
lol...now wait a second, on one hand the left criticizes bush for not acting fast enough in some situations while condeming him for acting to fast in others...this is commonly called second guessing....

"and that these agreements were in place long before the invasion"
they were???? you mean the scene where moore shows the companies meeting to recieve info on how they can participate in the reconstruction was done BEFORE the war??? and this was an open meeting as well...all were encouraged to participate. not to mention it was OUR $92 billion they were seeking a piece of...i dont believe that cash had anything to do with the war(call me anything you want). they knew it would take many dollars to rebuild i agree but if the wholsale distribution of cash was what they were seeking they could have just as well spent the 92 billion in afghanistan or even right here at home for that matter..what differance did it make where the work was done if the goal was only to distribute it to the companies?

if you notice its always about the cash to moore, it is very easy to convince the have nots that the haves are conspiring to keep them down...its worked for N.korea, its worked for jesse jackson and now its working for moore....but that doesnt make any of it true.

im sorry i didnt get to the first link yet but i will get there...i am quite open minded and would love to find a conspiracy laying around somewhere.....its just that so far i cant find it, im looking......but i cant find it...yet? maybe so
 

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Let it go. 'Patriot' knows his propaganda. He's the long-lost 7th Goebbels child; the one they didn't give enough poison to in '45.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sfeiner:
"These were people obsessed, literally, with the scaling back of US foreign policy and military dominance by the Clinton admin and who feel that America as a superpower should never be left challengable"

WELL again i have to say i hope that is the truth..we are the the most powerful nation in the history of the world and staying that way could not be more important to me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is the point, isn't it? I think the neo-con agenda is repulsive, personally. I'm a neo-idealist and I'm pretty sure my politics would make you nuts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>", the fact that no competitive bidding took place at all"
lol...now wait a second, on one hand the left criticizes bush for not acting fast enough in some situations while condeming him for acting to fast in others...this is commonly called second guessing....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't quite follow unless you're talking about that 7-minute delay that everyone's talking about, which means diddly to me personally. "The Left" don't always agree. At any rate, Cheney's former company (on whose board I am sure he will sit for life after his term is up) gets a deal in place with no competitive bidding and you don't think this might be a bit of a conflict of interest? Not even a smidge?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"and that these agreements were in place long before the invasion"
they were???? you mean the scene where moore shows the companies meeting to recieve info on how they can participate in the reconstruction was done BEFORE the war??? and this was an open meeting as well...all were encouraged to participate. not to mention it was OUR $92 billion they were seeking a piece of...i dont believe that cash had anything to do with the war(call me anything you want). they knew it would take many dollars to rebuild i agree but if the wholsale distribution of cash was what they were seeking they could have just as well spent the 92 billion in afghanistan or even right here at home for that matter..what differance did it make where the work was done if the goal was only to distribute it to the companies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know when that meeting took place in Moore's movie. However, I am guessing that the one that had Haliburton, Lockheed Martin and the other really big players wasn't filmed at all. I think the one in Moore's film was for the little guys.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>im sorry i didnt get to the first link yet but i will get there...i am quite open minded and would love to find a conspiracy laying around somewhere.....its just that so far i cant find it, im looking......but i cant find it...yet? maybe so<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's a conspiracy, either. A conspiracy requires some kind of secrecy, and since I'm able to post links to all this stuff for you, clearly there is little secrecy here. I believe that there is more going on behind closed doors, but we'll never know about it. The whole thing is simply agenda-ridden. They could have sold their actual intent (The Greater Middle East Reform Initiative -- Bush mentioned it recently) if most Americans were neo-conservatives like yourself. But they aren't. Hence the 'gathering danger' routine.
 

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