liberalism @ work with healthcare

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Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]The legislation calls for a 5.4 percent tax increase on individuals making more than $1 million a year, with a gradual tax beginning at $280,000 for individuals. Employers who don't provide coverage would be hit with a penalty equal to 8 percent of workers' wages, with an exemption for small businesses. Individuals who decline an offer of affordable coverage would pay 2.5 percent of their incomes as a penalty, up to the average cost of a health insurance plan.

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1.5 trillion dollars, but he's going to reduce costs

another round of tax increases, but he's going to simplify the tax code

employer penalties pertaining to coverage

individual penalties pertaining to coverage

and we don't even know about fines, fees, penalties and crimes pertaining to actual health care services yet

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let's get this passed today, we can't wait another minute because only 85% of Americans are happy with their care and coverage, we need to fuck that thing up and now.

people are going to lose their jobs, when you take money from employers, people lose their jobs

In all seriousness, we have elected a retard, the dumbest man to ever become POTUS. The weakness in his resume is becoming more obvious every day. He just doesn't have a clue about life & reality.

If this bill passes, unemployment & economic numbers are going to be significantly worse than anything we experienced in our lifetime. It's hard to diminish my optimism, but the retard in chief is one dangerous mutha fucker.

I'll be fine, only God can fuck me up, but there will be a lot of hurting people out there.
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Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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typical left wing policy argument, "everything in your world gets better, and somebody else pays for it"

fool somebody once, shame on you, fool somebody 12,633 then those tards deserve their bleeding asses.

Roll call, who actually believes that only the very wealthy will be paying the estimated 1.5 trillion dollar tab? (which means it will really cost 4.2 trillion)

Put me in the no fucking chance at all column. Stone cold lock of a lifetime.
 

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When you cosider this it makes more sense.


Table 7: Share of capital income flowing to households in various income categories
Top 1% Top 5% Top 10% Bottom 80%
1979 37.8% 57.9% 66.7% 23.1%
1981 35.8% 55.4% 64.6% 24.4%
1983 37.6% 55.2% 63.7% 25.1%
1985 39.7% 56.9% 64.9% 24.9%
1987 36.7% 55.3% 64.0% 25.6%
1989 39.1% 57.4% 66.0% 23.5%
1991 38.3% 56.2% 64.7% 23.9%
1993 42.2% 60.5% 69.2% 20.7%
1995 43.2% 61.5% 70.1% 19.6%
1997 45.7% 64.1% 72.6% 17.5%
1999 47.8% 65.7% 73.8% 17.0%
2001 51.8% 67.8% 74.8% 16.0%
2003 57.5% 73.2% 79.4% 12.6%
Adapted from Shapiro & Friedman (2006).




Another way that income can be used as a power indicator is by comparing average CEO annual pay to average factory worker pay, something that Business Week has been doing for many years now. The ratio of CEO pay to factory worker pay rose from 42:1 in 1960 to as high as 531:1 in 2000, at the height of the stock market bubble, when CEOs were cashing in big stock options;. It was at 411:1 in 2005. By way of comparison, the same ratio is about 25:1 in Europe. The changes in the American ratio are displayed in Figure 6.



Figure 6: CEOs' pay as a multiple of the average worker's pay




It's even more revealing to compare the actual rates of increase of the salaries of CEOs and ordinary workers; from 1990 to 2005, CEOs' pay increased almost 300% (adjusted for inflation), while production workers gained a scant 4.3%. The purchasing power of the federal minimum wage actually declined by 9.3%, when inflation is taken into account. These startling results are illustrated in Figure 7.



Figure 7: CEOs' average pay, production workers' average pay, the S&P 500 Index, corporate profits, and the federal minimum wage, 1990-2005 (all figures adjusted for inflation)

Source: Executive Excess 2006, the 13th Annual CEO Compensation Survey from the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy.



If you wonder how such a large gap could develop, the proximate, or most immediate, factor involves the way in which CEOs now are able to rig things so that the board of directors, which they help select -- and which includes some fellow CEOs on whose boards they sit -- gives them the pay they want. The trick is in hiring outside experts, called "compensation consultants," who give the process a thin veneer of economic respectability.

The process has been explained in detail by a retired CEO of DuPont, Edgar S. Woolard, Jr., who is now chair of the New York Stock Exchange's executive compensation committee. His experience suggests that he knows whereof he speaks, and he speaks because he's concerned that corporate leaders are losing respect in the public mind. He says that the business page chatter about CEO salaries being set by the competition for their services in the executive labor market is "bull." As to the claim that CEOs deserve ever higher salaries because they "create wealth," he describes that rationale as a "joke," says the New York Times (Morgenson, 2005, Section 3, p. 1).

Here's how it works, according to Woolard:

The compensation committee [of the board of directors] talks to an outside consultant who has surveys you could drive a truck through and pay anything you want to pay, to be perfectly honest. The outside consultant talks to the human resources vice president, who talks to the CEO. The CEO says what he'd like to receive. It gets to the human resources person who tells the outside consultant. And it pretty well works out that the CEO gets what he's implied he thinks he deserves, so he will be respected by his peers. (Morgenson, 2005.)

The board of directors buys into what the CEO asks for because the outside consultant is an "expert" on such matters. Furthermore, handing out only modest salary increases might give the wrong impression about how highly the board values the CEO. And if someone on the board should object, there are the three or four CEOs from other companies who will make sure it happens. It is a process with a built-in escalator.

As for why the consultants go along with this scam, they know which side their bread is buttered on. They realize the CEO has a big say-so on whether or not they are hired again. So they suggest a package of salaries, stock options and other goodies that they think will please the CEO, and they, too, get rich in the process. And certainly the top executives just below the CEO don't mind hearing about the boss's raise. They know it will mean pay increases for them, too. (For an excellent detailed article on the main consulting firm that helps CEOs and other corporate executives raise their pay, check out the New York Times article entitled "America's Corporate Pay Pal", which supports everything Woolard of DuPont claims and adds new information.)

There's a much deeper power story that underlies the self-dealing and mutual back-scratching by CEOs now carried out through interlocking directorates and seemingly independent outside consultants. It probably involves several factors. At the least, on the worker side, it reflects an increasing lack of power following the all-out attack on unions in the 1960s and 1970s, which is explained in detail by the best expert on recent American labor history, James Gross (1995), a labor and industrial relations professor at Cornell. That decline in union power made possible and was increased by both outsourcing at home and the movement of production to developing countries, which were facilitated by the break-up of the New Deal coalition and the rise of the New Right (Domhoff, 1990, Chapter 10). It signals the shift of the United States from a high-wage to a low-wage economy, with professionals protected by the fact that foreign-trained doctors and lawyers aren't allowed to compete with their American counterparts in the direct way that low-wage foreign-born workers are.

On the other side of the class divide, the rise in CEO pay may reflect the increasing power of chief executives as compared to major owners and stockholders in general, not just their increasing power over workers. CEOs may now be the center of gravity in the corporate community and the power elite, displacing the leaders in wealthy owning families (e.g., the second and third generations of the Walton family, the owners of Wal-Mart). True enough, the CEOs are sometimes ousted by their generally go-along boards of directors, but they are able to make hay and throw their weight around during the time they are king of the mountain. (It's really not much different than that old children's game, except it's played out in profit-oriented bureaucratic hierarchies, with no other sector of society, like government, willing or able to restrain the winners.)
 

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Sorry some of the graphs did not print but the explanations are clear.
 

I'll be in the Bar..With my head on the Bar
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Wrong i believe....Its not a tax increase its an across the board sur-tax on every million dollars you earn...Thats off the top before you pay the standard income tax...
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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Oh man...so what you're saying is that all the guys in our friendly PoliticoPub fraternity who earn $1million or more each year are really going to take the high, hard one.
 

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It may be a million now, but who's to say it doesn't come down to $50K when we still can't afford healthcare?
 

Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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this is efficiency to some

the unfunded and unrecorded liabilities of our present liberal entitlement programs? 99 trillion dollars

now liberals like Obama & Punter want to do for our health care system what their programs have done for our retirement system.

Seriously, you can't make shit this stupid and this naive up.

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According to Richard W. Fisher, the president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, the unfunded liabilities of the US Social Security and Medicare system stand at $99.2 trillion today. That figure is not a misprint. If the US government plans to keep operating the Social Security system and the Medicare system, then the official federal debt really is $11.3 trillion plus $99.2 trillion, or $110.5 trillion.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/200...debt-has-ballooned-more-than-100-trillion.htm

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not a lick of common sense to be found
 

Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2008/fs080528.cfm

The good news is this Social Security shortfall might be manageable. While the issues regarding Social Security reform are complex, it is at least possible to imagine how Congress might find, within a $14 trillion economy, ways to wrestle with a $13 trillion unfunded liability. The bad news is that Social Security is the lesser of our entitlement worries. It is but the tip of the unfunded liability iceberg. The much bigger concern is Medicare, a program established in 1965, the same prosperous year that Bill Martin cautioned his Columbia University audience to be wary of complacency and storms on the horizon.
Medicare was a pay-as-you-go program from the very beginning, despite warnings from some congressional leaders—Wilbur Mills was the most credible of them before he succumbed to the pay-as-you-go wiles of Fanne Foxe, the Argentine Firecracker—who foresaw some of the long-term fiscal issues such a financing system could pose. Unfortunately, they were right.
Please sit tight while I walk you through the math of Medicare. As you may know, the program comes in three parts: Medicare Part A, which covers hospital stays; Medicare B, which covers doctor visits; and Medicare D, the drug benefit that went into effect just 29 months ago. The infinite-horizon present discounted value of the unfunded liability for Medicare A is $34.4 trillion. The unfunded liability of Medicare B is an additional $34 trillion. The shortfall for Medicare D adds another $17.2 trillion. The total? If you wanted to cover the unfunded liability of all three programs today, you would be stuck with an $85.6 trillion bill. That is more than six times as large as the bill for Social Security. It is more than six times the annual output of the entire U.S. economy.


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so our existing government managed health care program, which only started in 1965, is $ 85.6 trillion in debt.


$ 85.6 trillion
$ 85.6 trillion


are these the type of people you want running our entire health care system? is this how you save money?



how fucking stupid does it get?


:ohno:
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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It may be a million now, but who's to say it doesn't come down to $50K when we still can't afford healthcare?

Yeah

Who's to say?
 

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the rich will always try to get richer. most people grow up and learn that taxes are a way of life. the rich have people telling them how to pay less and keep more, while the average joe gets online and hopes h & r block hasn't raised their rates.

the thing that's sad to me is there's probably a majority of rich folks out there who aren't taking a minute to think about their political views and personal values -- they're just pissed cause they're going to pay more taxes.

i'm don't wanna have barman tell me to keep my rants to a minimum, but i will say this: getting mad at the idea of higher taxes isn't enough to get mad. i'd be embarrassed if i was making millions but couldn't explain my displeasure at paying more taxes....
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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. i'd be embarrassed if i was making millions but couldn't explain my displeasure at paying more taxes....

Everyone's got a different point of personal chastisement.

Me? I'd likely be embarrassed if I was making millions and couldn't figure out a way to offset a 5% income tax increase.
 

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Everyone's got a different point of personal chastisement.

Me? I'd likely be embarrassed if I was making millions and couldn't figure out a way to offset a 5% income tax increase.

i don't know. Grandma always told me the more you make the more you spend. I'd hate to think of what i'd have to do to offset a 5% increase in my taxes -- not betting on football is out of the question.
 

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1500 per annum if you make 500,000 a year. But that wont quite the rat wang. Hell they still have not stopped squealing about doing away with the tax cuts that Dubya gave the richest people in our nation.
 

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Thought I would paste this again. Not sure anyone has grasp the ramifications.

Table 7: Share of capital income flowing to households in various income categories
Top 1% Top 5% Top 10% Bottom 80%
1979 37.8% 57.9% 66.7% 23.1%
1981 35.8% 55.4% 64.6% 24.4%
1983 37.6% 55.2% 63.7% 25.1%
1985 39.7% 56.9% 64.9% 24.9%
1987 36.7% 55.3% 64.0% 25.6%
1989 39.1% 57.4% 66.0% 23.5%
1991 38.3% 56.2% 64.7% 23.9%
1993 42.2% 60.5% 69.2% 20.7%
1995 43.2% 61.5% 70.1% 19.6%
1997 45.7% 64.1% 72.6% 17.5%
1999 47.8% 65.7% 73.8% 17.0%
2001 51.8% 67.8% 74.8% 16.0%
2003 57.5% 73.2% 79.4% 12.6%
Adapted from Shapiro & Friedman (2006).
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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i don't know. Grandma always told me the more you make the more you spend. I'd hate to think of what i'd have to do to offset a 5% increase in my taxes -- not betting on football is out of the question.

Was Grandma a multi-millionaire, or was she just imagining it?

Questioned offered with fullest respect to the old gal
 

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1500 per annum if you make 500,000 a year. But that wont quite the rat wang. Hell they still have not stopped squealing about doing away with the tax cuts that Dubya gave the richest people in our nation.

and then tax them more. if i was 80 and was good till i died i wouldn't care. i'm 32. i'm researching the health care issue now and am finding myself more open to this thing but am still undecided. thing is, at some point, where do you stop? with the exception disabled and elderly Americans, who do we have a moral duty to provide for?
 

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Was Grandma a multi-millionaire, or was she just imagining it?

Questioned offered with fullest respect to the old gal

i wrote about her in one of my rants. no different than a million other grandmothers, rich or poor.
 

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