just a thought guys....try offshore banking

[Christian]

Please, dont tell me you opened an austrian bank account with a utility bill. I know way too much abou this stuff to beleive that.

did i say "with only a utility bill"??? i like how you take things out of context.

i already stated this, twice i think actually, i had to provide certified copies of my passport, drivers license, my bank statement (it was a u.s. bank where i was transfering funds from and showed my address on it) and a bill that showed my current residence at the time (i used a heating bill that showed my residence).

this was what identification documents were required to open my account.

and no i've never set up a corporation. i only use an "offshore" account to store my nest egg while i'm betting full-time.

i'm going to look back through your posts and answer the rest of your questions in a second.

 

[Christian]

I emplore you to reference these sites:

http://swiss-bank-accounts.com/e/faq/before.html

http://www.offshore-services.biz/offshore-banking/

http://www.atrium-incorporators.com/Offshore%20Banking%20-%20Introduction%20Fees.htm

I assume these companies exist because anyone can walk in to a bank and open an account? Have you ever heard of Micheloud & Cie - they are a HUGE company that only does this.

----------------------------



you're going to refer to a bunch of companies that charge for their services? and this is to prove what? that people pay other people/services to expedite and simplify the process for them?

did i ever deny this? i already stated that everything i learned about this was from a friend of mine who runs a similar company in dubai. she walked me through the process, step-by-step, although unlike you, i didn't pay anything to anyone

i've already stated about a million times in this thread, that your money isn't safe if you're mixed up in international crime! if you're a drug trafficker or involved in funding terrorism, then all bets are off...everyone knows that. look at how much al-qaeda money was seized post 9/11

but for the rest of us, you have nothing to worry about as long as you're not breaking laws in the country your money is stored.

oh, by the way, you don't need to physically be in switzerland to open an account...but even if you are...you CAN walk into a swiss bank and open an account on the spot.

granted, what you said is true that certain banks specialize in certain "levels" of clientele, and you may not meet their minimum requirement for opening an account (some are $100,000 min., i'm sure some banks are even more than that)

but even so, they'll be glad to point you in the direction of which banks are for "normal people" and you CAN walk right in through the front door and open an account.

 

[Orangemen]

Here is some quick info for anyone really dumb enough to do this.

Since the late 1990s, especially following September 11, 2001, there has been a number of initiatives to increase the transparency of offshore banking, although critics such as the Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions for the Aid of Citizens (ATTAC) non-governmental organization (NGO) maintain that they have been insufficient. A few examples of these are:

• The tightening of anti-money laundering regulations in many countries including most popular offshore banking locations means that bankers are required, by good faith, to report suspicion of money laundering to the local police authority, regardless of banking secrecy rules. There is more international co-operation between police authorities.
• In the US the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) introduced Qualifying Intermediary requirements, which mean that the names of the recipients of US-source investment income are passed to the IRS.
• Following 9/11 the US introduced the USA PATRIOT Act, which authorises the US authorities to seize the assets of a bank, where it is believed that the bank holds assets for a suspected criminal. Similar measures have been introduced in some other countries.
• The European Union has introduced sharing of information between certain jurisdictions, and enforced this in respect of certain controlled centres, such as the UK Offshore Islands, so that tax information is able to be shared in respect of interest.

Joseph Stiglitz, 2001 Nobel laureate for economics and former World Bank Chief Economist, told to reporter Lucy Komisar, investigating on the Clearstream scandal:
<DL><DD>"You ask why, if there's an important role for a regulated banking system, do you allow a non-regulated banking system to continue? It's in the interest of some of the moneyed interests to allow this to occur. It's not an accident; it could have been shut down at any time. If you said the US, the UK, the major G7 banks will not deal with offshore bank centers that don't comply with G7 banks regulations, these banks could not exist. They only exist because they engage in transactions with standard banks."<SUP id=ref_Komisarb>[1]</SUP> </DD></DL>In the 1970s through the 1990s it was possible to own your own personal offshore bank; mobster Meyer Lansky had done this to launder his casino money. Changes in offshore banking regulation in the 1990s in the form of "due diligence" (a legal construct) make offshore bank creation really only possible for medium to large multinational corporations that may be family owned or run.

This covers most major countries. There are still countries out there the US could not bully but I would also never trust $100 in a bank account there

 

[vanzack]

Things I have learned from this thread:

1. AK5387 is exactly right.
2. I would lay 10-1 that Christian does not currently have an Austrian bank account.
3. The IRS is aware of the account, can get the funds from the account, and you have to pay taxes on it - SO WHAT IS THE POINT???
4. Many many many people are confused about what offshore banking is. There are a lot more urban myths that people beleive rather than facts.

 

[vanzack]

After reading Christians latest post I will continue my list:

5. I would lay 100-1 that Christian does not currently have an Austrian bank account.
6. If you are following all laws, why have the account in the first place?? You say that the IRS cant get at your funds if you dont break the law - well that is the same at Bank of America.

For the last time - please tell me the advantage of offshore banking.

 

[WildBill]

You have some good points, but what you don't make clear is why would the IRS seize money? Having money isn't illegal and doesn't imply anything. The IRS would need to know you had income, how much it was, what its source was, and then calculate how much you should have paid in taxes before they could even start a claim against you. If you live outside the US and deal with offshore entities to make your income they aren't going to be able to ascertain this. You do make a good point that the IRS could get their hands on some bank accounts, but not all. One only needs an anonymous corporation and it would be impossible for the IRS to know who owns and benefits from the account.

The bottom line is if you are going to live outside the US and are intending on not filing tax returns with the IRS, you probably should bank offshore to basically keep the dogs off the trail. It isn't 100% foolproof, but its sort of like if you want to cheat on your spouse, probably best to do it in another state than in a hotel in town where people who know you might spot you. Make no mistake though, not filing tax returns would be illegal if you are a US citizen. In most cases you should file, as long as you are paying taxes to your host country and aren't making six figures in income you probably will owe the US nothing or close to nothing.

 

[vanzack]

Christian says: you can just walk in to any bank and open an account. With a utility bill. Including Switzerland.


Almost every website on the internet and my lawyer say: Opening an account in Switzerland is not like opening one in your home country, where you can normally do it with your driver's license and 10$. Swiss banks have to face heavy due diligence regulations and are very cautious in dealing with new clients. They prefer when the client comes introduced and properly documented by somebody they trust.

 

[Christian]

do you realize how many u.s. servicemen have bank accounts in foreign countries (england, germany, italy, turkey, japan, south korea, kuwait, qatar, etc.)

i had a bank account at an italian bank when i was 20 years old (when i was stationed in italy). opening an account in many foreign countries, especially in europe, isn't a very complicated process.

more importantly, i do not trust the IRS...or any u.s. govt agency for that matter. i don't. and as much time as i've spent living and working overseas, i am much more comfortable having my money overseas.

i invest overseas (you can check other threads for what i've posted about that) and i keep an account overseas. and since i'm probably going to be moving overseas again later this year, it just makes sense for me.

maybe you trust the the old "if i'm not doing anything illegal i have nothing to worry about"

i don't trust that. i'm not a conspiracy theory nut either. but i've seen enough to realize my govt. can't be trusted. i wish it wasn't the case, but it is.

you can do with your money whatever you want. and i can do whatever i want. i've just heard a lot of guys get paranoid about all the offshore betting they do and there are plenty of guys who bet much more than me.

so i thought this thread would be able to start a good discussion on the topic. i've already referenced some good places to look for good info...

escapeartist.com
sovereignsociety.com

i'll let people make their own conclusions.

 

[Orangemen]

U know on a side note a couple years back I came home from work to find a business card on my door and on the back call me written on it. It was a card from an IRS investigator and he was from MD and drove to NJ to talk to me. Needless to say it was friday evening and I was scared shitless. I called and left him a message and he calls me Monday AM.

I am thinking I am going to get arrested or something but then he says to me "we see you won a bunch of money from BETWWTS a couple years back and we have a few questions. And immediatly I play dumb and he says listen we are not after you we are trying to go after BETWWTS. So he starts listing all the payouts I recieved from them. Neteller, WU, Bank wire(amounts and dates). He has them all and I was floored. All he wanted to know if I ever placed a bet on credit. And I told him no. He asked a bunch of questions on how I deposited the money(before or after i placed the wager) well he realized that betwwts did not break the law with me and thanked me for my time. I asked him how he had all the info and he said that they searched for BETWWTS transactions and started pulling out peoples names that got decent payouts/deposits over a short period of time and started to call them. He stated trust me you are not hiding anything from us. And if they wanted they could trace every penny I spent easily.

Lesson to this story the Govt can easily track EVERYTHING you due if you give them enough of a reason to do it. Don't think you are foolling them. Just pray you stay under their radar. I followed all the rules that everyone here thinks the govt won't find you with. Small deposits/withdrawal using multiple methods and multiple people and none if it worked when the govt actually wanted to find me.

 

[vanzack]

but Christian I hope you understand that your last post is quite contrite in comparison to your previous posts where you boldly state:

THE IRS CANT TOUCH YOUR MONEY

If you are going to live overseas then it makes sense. Sure. But we all know that was not the point of this thread. This thread was to suggest that offshore banking is an answer to protect your money from the IRS. NOT TRUE.

I keep asking but you wont answer - and something else that leads me to beleive you do not have an austrian bank account - is whether or not you have set up a corporation. As Wild Bill says, this is a key for discretion,and is not something that is done with 10 bucks and a utility bill.

I will let this go now - my point is not to drag this out.

But anyone reading this should understand that until his last post Christian makes some very naive statements and in some cases outright factual mistakes about offshore banking.

And I have yet to hear one single advantage for the law abiding american gambler. Not one.

 

[Christian]

Christian says: you can just walk in to any bank and open an account. With a utility bill. Including Switzerland.

okay, now you're pissing me off. you're taking what i said out of contex AGAIN.

i've tried being polite and i've tried to continue this discussion in an intelligent fashion but obviously you're one of those people who only knows how to debate by taking things out of context and putting words in people's mouths. and i'm tired of this nonsense.

re-check my posts. where did i say "you can just walk into any bank and open an account. with a utility bill. including switzerland"

I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT AND YOU KNOW IT. hell, it's only like 5 posts above us to verify it.

i said, you CAN walk into banks, even in switzerland, and open an account on the spot (provided you have the proper documentation)...

i ALSO said that there are different banks that specialize in different levels of clientele in switzerland (since you started rambling about swizterland)..

and if you're in a place that has a higher minimum requirement (say, $100,000) they'll just tell you where to find a bank that has something better suited for you (say, a $25,000 requirement...mabye even less, i'm not sure what each bank requires there)

that's all i said. re-check my posts.

it's obvious you've been getting plenty of advice from people's whose sole business is to make money off of you. i tend to take what those people say with a grain of salt.

 

[vanzack]

okay, now you're pissing me off. you're taking what i said out of contex AGAIN.

i've tried being polite and i've tried to continue this discussion in an intelligent fashion but obviously you're one of those people who only knows how to debate by taking things out of context and putting words in people's mouths. and i'm tired of this nonsense.

re-check my posts. where did i say "you can just walk into any bank and open an account. with a utility bill. including switzerland"

I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT AND YOU KNOW IT. hell, it's only like 5 posts above us to verify it.

i said, you CAN walk into banks, even in switzerland, and open an account on the spot (provided you have the proper documentation)...

i ALSO said that there are different banks that specialize in different levels of clientele in switzerland (since you started rambling about swizterland)..

and if you're in a place that has a higher minimum requirement (say, $100,000) they'll just tell you where to find a bank that has something better suited for you (say, a $25,000 requirement...mabye even less, i'm not sure what each bank requires there)

that's all i said. re-check my posts.

it's obvious you've been getting plenty of advice from people's whose sole business is to make money off of you. i tend to take what those people say with a grain of salt.

OK Christian I apologize for misquoting you.

Whether or not you can get an offshore bank account is really the minor issue here.

You are avoiding all of the other questions that are important such as do you have an offshore corporation? What are the advantages of offshore banking for the law abiding US citizen? And do you still say that the IRS cannot touch your money offshore?

If you dont want to answer that is ok. I wont post again or badger you.

 

[Christian]

I keep asking but you wont answer - and something else that leads me to beleive you do not have an austrian bank account - is whether or not you have set up a corporation. As Wild Bill says, this is a key for discretion,and is not something that is done with 10 bucks and a utility bill.

you're one of those people that doesn't listen but waits to talk, aren't you?

check my post about 10 posts above. i've already stated i have never set up a corporation.

i have looked into setting up an IBC in panama but that's something further down the road.

 

[Christian]

yes, i was pissed...but that was only because of your misquoting and taking things out of context.

i have no problem with your posts, especially since it's obvious that you're knowledgeable on this subject. even more knowledgeable than i am probably.

that's not the point. this forum is all about open discussion and debate. but misquoting and taking things out of context will only get a "rolling of the eyes" response by the people reading this thread (most of whom haven't a clue about offshore investing, banking, etc. of any kind)

anyway, i thought i've answered every question you've asked...

you may have heard advice to the contrary, but from the experts who have advised me...they all say the same story.

in banking centers that have established banking privacy/secrecy laws...the IRS can't touch your money w/o cooperation from the local governments...

and the local governments aren't going to cooperate unless you're violating laws that effect them. international drug trafficking, funding terrorism, money laundering etc. would be obvious examples of what WOULD get their cooperation.

but aside from that, the IRS isn't going to get cooperation and they're not going to have access to your money.

and besides, i'm not advising anyone to do any of that, or even to evade their own u.s. taxes. all i'm saying is that i don't trust the u.s. govt. and i don't want them to have access to my money. if i had a regular 9-5 job in america i probably wouldn't care...

but i don't. with what i do, and with as much money as i cycle throughout latin america (sportsbooks, i mean) i don't even want to risk it. it's for my own comfort factor.

 

[Christian]

I emplore you to reference these sites:

http://swiss-bank-accounts.com/e/faq/before.html

http://www.offshore-services.biz/offshore-banking/

http://www.atrium-incorporators.com/Offshore%20Banking%20-%20Introduction%20Fees.htm

I assume these companies exist because anyone can walk in to a bank and open an account? Have you ever heard of Micheloud & Cie - they are a HUGE company that only does this.

----------------------------

you know, for awhile i actually thought you might know what you were talking about. you were talking a good game for quite awhile. then i actually took the time to research those sites you listed.

your assumption that these companies exist because they're pretty much the only way a person can open an offshore account is LAUGHABLE.

see, you're the kind of person who likes to pay people to do everything for him. like opening an offshore account. you probably pay someone to invest your money for you too. maybe mutual funds, who knows?

me, on the other hand, i like to learn how to do it myself. i invest my own money, do my own banking, etc. i don't pay anyone anything.

that is where you're getting your information from! you're getting it from people who SOLE business is to KEEP YOU from learning how to do things yourself. if you learned how to do things yourself, you wouldn't need their services.

now granted, if you're so busy (or just so rich) that you just don't have the time or desire to learn and would rather pay 900 swiss francs for someone else to do everything for you...then more power to you.

but i'd rather contact the bank myself and find out what is required. sure it may be confusing at first, but in the end i'll be a more informed investor and i won't pay a dime to anyone.

although, before i get too full of myself for not having had to pay someone to set up my account i should add a disclaimer. even though i've already stated this about 10 times in this thread, knowing you, you'll probably misquote me somehow again so i'm going to say it again...

i did get lucky. i realize that. i met someone, who ended up becoming a close friend, who operates an offshore investment firm in dubai. and she taught me pretty much everything i know about this stuff. so i did get lucky in a way.

but even so, i'm not going to pay someone a dime until i'm absolutely sure that there's nothing i can on my own first. if i research it and am sure that i need help, and need to pay for help then that's different.

but from the sounds of it, you just assumed that "well, these people make a lot of money and have a lot of customers so this must be the way it's done"

and don't even try giving me the spiel about hiring your "gambling lawyer" lawyers are just out to get paid too.

after re-reading your posts, i think i gave you more credit than you deserved. although i do appreciate the debate, don't get me wrong. most people have no clue about this topic (just like me, up until only a few years ago) so it's always good to share ideas and views.

i hope you look at some of the sites i listed. you'll learn a lot and definitely learn to have a more "independent" outlook when it comes to your finances. good luck to you!

 

[Slash]

It's absolutely no problem getting an offshore account. Postfinance will let you open an account with less than $10k (one of my friends did last year) and of course it's completely free of charge. Only the paperwork can be a hazzle. I think I sent papers back and forth 3 or 4 times when opening an account with UBS.com which is another Swiss bank.

But it's funny reading so much ignorance and stupidity in one thread. Just another thread at Rx, I guess.

 

[Christian]

It's absolutely no problem getting an offshore account. Postfinance will let you open an account with less than $10k (one of my friends did last year) and of course it's completely free of charge. Only the paperwork can be a hazzle. I think I sent papers back and forth 3 or 4 times when opening an account with UBS.com which is another Swiss bank.

But it's funny reading so much ignorance and stupidity in one thread. Just another thread at Rx, I guess.

i almost wish i never would have started this thread. i ended up wasting half my evening arguing with some guy about this when i should have been working on tomorrow's NBA and NHL cards.

although, luckily both cards are light tomorrow or i would have really gotten behind!

it's funny slash, i was just listening to nighttrain....my favorite song from my favorite band! have a good night!

 

[vanzack]

For the last time (really) - the opening of the account is secondary. Lets assume you can open an account anywhere in the world with ease.

The point still unanswered is simply why? What is the advantage? If the IRS can get that money anyway, what is the benefit? For the average law abiding US citizen, why bank offshore?

 

[docdekay]

For the last time (really) - the opening of the account is secondary. Lets assume you can open an account anywhere in the world with ease.

The point still unanswered is simply why? What is the advantage? If the IRS can get that money anyway, what is the benefit? For the average law abiding US citizen, why bank offshore?

Exactly.

 

[Christian]

For the last time (really) - the opening of the account is secondary. Lets assume you can open an account anywhere in the world with ease.

The point still unanswered is simply why? What is the advantage? If the IRS can get that money anyway, what is the benefit? For the average law abiding US citizen, why bank offshore?

from the tone of that first paragraph, it appears someone is finally changing their tune. i guess you realized your error.

anyway, to answer your second paragraph...

you and i just have different beliefs of what the IRS can and can't do. for some reason you think the IRS can just call up any bank and the world and say "hey, we're seizing the funds in account XXXXXXXX."

however, i know the reality. without cooperation from the bank in question, the IRS can't do anything.

and banks who have established secrecy laws do NOT cooperate unless the individual in question is breaking a law in THEIR country or is invovled in some sort of international crime (drug trafficking, money laundering, funding terrorism, etc.) ultimately, it is THE BANK that decides whether to cooperate or not.

if you really think the IRS is going to get cooperation from a bank in luxembourg because they show the bank manager some sort of "evidence" that their american customer didn't pay his taxes on gambling winnings you're out of your mind!

but again, the whole point of this thread wasn't to tell people how to evade taxes. it was to tell them how to keep their money out of reach of the IRS and not even give those assholes a chance to screw with you.