Deuteronomy 1:39
And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Also Paul clearly explains in Chapter 7 who he is speaking to in chapter 6.
Rom. 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
I did not write the following but it sums up my belief in the subject pretty well.
A way of answering your question might be to answer the following: “How were people saved prior to Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection?” People then were saved by responding positively to God’s revelation. In other words, people are held accountable for what they know. How much light has a person received from God? Whatever that is, that is what they’re accountable for. The same would be true for people today who have never heard of Jesus.
If someone lived in China prior to Christ’s death and resurrection, how could they be expected to believe in Jesus’ death and resurrection for the forgiveness of their sins? Obviously, they could not believe in something they had never heard. In fact, that’s what the Bible tells us: “How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?” (Romans 10:14)
Questions about faith? Bring your doubts
Why would I need faith?: Find some answers
God doesn’t expect people to respond to something they’ve never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: “sin is not taken into account when there is no law” (Romans 5:13). If a person cannot respond to the good news of Jesus dying on their behalf (because they haven’t heard that good news), what are they accountable to respond to?…
The Bible tells us that there are some basics. First, all people are accountable to know that God exists. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20). The complexity of the world around us tells us that there is a God (even though people can suppress that knowledge in their heart). Even those who haven’t heard of Jesus are accountable for knowing that God is.
Second, we’re all accountable for knowing that we are sinners. The Old Testament law proves that we’re sinful. Who has perfectly loved God or their neighbor? Therefore, “through the law we become conscious of sin” (Romans 3:20). But what about people who do not know the Old Testament law?
The Bible tells us that even people who don’t have that law nonetheless have their own “law” — their own moral standard within their hearts (Romans 2:14-15). For example, if in his heart Nick believes it is wrong for others to talk behind his back, then that is a law within his heart. Therefore, when Nick talks behind someone else’s back, he has disobeyed the moral standard within his heart, thus proving he is a sinner.
So the two basics of revelation from God are (1) that God exists and (2) that we humans are sinners. How does one respond positively to these things? Well, if there is a God and we are sinners, then we need to humble ourselves before Him. Even the person who never hears about Jesus is accountable for humbling himself before God. In fact, the Bible speaks of a future time when God will proclaim the following “eternal gospel” to every nation, tribe, language and people on Earth: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:7)
In times past (prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection), people were saved by humbling themselves before God. God can have compassion and mercy on whomever He chooses (Romans 9:15), and He alone knows people’s hearts. Today, when a person hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they will respond positively to it if they are humbling themselves before God.
For those who don’t hear about Jesus, they still need to humble themselves before God. That means that they cannot trust in themselves for their salvation. Meaning, a person cannot think they can earn God’s favor by following religious rituals. That is an error because it’s like telling God, “I’m not a sinner — just look at all the good things I’ve done!” Therefore, it is a rejection one of the basics of God’s revelation to us: that we are sinners who need forgiveness from God.
But know that no matter who is saved, they will receive salvation on the basis of God’s grace, not by their works. God’s grace was given through Jesus’ death and resurrection. His atoning work is the way into heaven, even for those who have never heard of Him but who nonetheless are shown mercy from God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6).
And He has commanded His followers to tell others about Him. He commanded them to go to the ends of the earth to declare His message of forgiveness of sin and offer of eternal life (Matthew 28:18-20). For, as the Bible tells us, with His blood He purchased people “from every tribe and tongue and people and nation” (Revelation 5:9).
And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Also Paul clearly explains in Chapter 7 who he is speaking to in chapter 6.
Rom. 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
I did not write the following but it sums up my belief in the subject pretty well.
A way of answering your question might be to answer the following: “How were people saved prior to Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection?” People then were saved by responding positively to God’s revelation. In other words, people are held accountable for what they know. How much light has a person received from God? Whatever that is, that is what they’re accountable for. The same would be true for people today who have never heard of Jesus.
If someone lived in China prior to Christ’s death and resurrection, how could they be expected to believe in Jesus’ death and resurrection for the forgiveness of their sins? Obviously, they could not believe in something they had never heard. In fact, that’s what the Bible tells us: “How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?” (Romans 10:14)
Questions about faith? Bring your doubts
Why would I need faith?: Find some answers
God doesn’t expect people to respond to something they’ve never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: “sin is not taken into account when there is no law” (Romans 5:13). If a person cannot respond to the good news of Jesus dying on their behalf (because they haven’t heard that good news), what are they accountable to respond to?…
The Bible tells us that there are some basics. First, all people are accountable to know that God exists. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20). The complexity of the world around us tells us that there is a God (even though people can suppress that knowledge in their heart). Even those who haven’t heard of Jesus are accountable for knowing that God is.
Second, we’re all accountable for knowing that we are sinners. The Old Testament law proves that we’re sinful. Who has perfectly loved God or their neighbor? Therefore, “through the law we become conscious of sin” (Romans 3:20). But what about people who do not know the Old Testament law?
The Bible tells us that even people who don’t have that law nonetheless have their own “law” — their own moral standard within their hearts (Romans 2:14-15). For example, if in his heart Nick believes it is wrong for others to talk behind his back, then that is a law within his heart. Therefore, when Nick talks behind someone else’s back, he has disobeyed the moral standard within his heart, thus proving he is a sinner.
So the two basics of revelation from God are (1) that God exists and (2) that we humans are sinners. How does one respond positively to these things? Well, if there is a God and we are sinners, then we need to humble ourselves before Him. Even the person who never hears about Jesus is accountable for humbling himself before God. In fact, the Bible speaks of a future time when God will proclaim the following “eternal gospel” to every nation, tribe, language and people on Earth: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:7)
In times past (prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection), people were saved by humbling themselves before God. God can have compassion and mercy on whomever He chooses (Romans 9:15), and He alone knows people’s hearts. Today, when a person hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they will respond positively to it if they are humbling themselves before God.
For those who don’t hear about Jesus, they still need to humble themselves before God. That means that they cannot trust in themselves for their salvation. Meaning, a person cannot think they can earn God’s favor by following religious rituals. That is an error because it’s like telling God, “I’m not a sinner — just look at all the good things I’ve done!” Therefore, it is a rejection one of the basics of God’s revelation to us: that we are sinners who need forgiveness from God.
But know that no matter who is saved, they will receive salvation on the basis of God’s grace, not by their works. God’s grace was given through Jesus’ death and resurrection. His atoning work is the way into heaven, even for those who have never heard of Him but who nonetheless are shown mercy from God. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6).
And He has commanded His followers to tell others about Him. He commanded them to go to the ends of the earth to declare His message of forgiveness of sin and offer of eternal life (Matthew 28:18-20). For, as the Bible tells us, with His blood He purchased people “from every tribe and tongue and people and nation” (Revelation 5:9).
The problem with this doctrine is all the many verses that explain that all of mankind were condemned with the fall of Adam.
Romans 5:12 is one of many: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned —
I was Anthropology Major for 2 semesters. First semester was great, learned a lot, was excited the direction I was heading in. But next semesters class, I gotta say our professor was bizarre. Could not figure out what he believed in but he was great at focusing on facts and evidence, and not just evidence that supported. He turned a lot of the students off from the subject, including me. At the time I wanted to work in a museum but did not pursue this after that class had finished. From what I can remember there was tons of evidence supporting evolution, yet there was also just as much contradicting that support. But it would be considered 'inconclusive' Lots of pieces fit, but lots of incomplete ideas and pieces as well. It was like opening a puzzle box and you have 'extra' pieces but are done with you puzzle. And when someone says where do those pieces fit you say no where. I am all done. Our professor was big on using analogys and I remember the tornado airplane as you mentioned hache. But its proven we come from 'spit' dads semen and moms egg makes a pool of spit, but it only takes 9 months not millions of year @)
I didnt grow up in a church family or any talk of god or any religion out of curiosity I took a world religions class. I have to say all explanations of human origins are pretty bizarre and take a lot of 'faith' to believe in any of them whole heartedly. And between the extreme bible thumpers and other religious people vs the extreme atheist, they are not that different. As you can guess I had many of both in my classes and both try to cram their beliefs in your face. I can understand the religious people, they are trying to grow the size of their church, save your soul, or please their god. But why are atheist so eager to cram their beliefs down everyones throat? makes me believe they are trying to convince themselves because there is no 'spiritual gain' or a gain of any sort, is there?
Bottom line I am not worried and can careless about what happened millions of years ago. I have too much to worry about here. and now in 2012
AL: It is clear to me that you are an educated person who does not take this topic lightly. This statement however, shows how bitter you are towards God for you to paint His existence with such broad strokes and it has nothing to do with the true love that God has for all of us.
What you fail to comprehend AL is that it is the devil himself that is given dominion over this world. It is not a question of God allowing horrible things to plague humanity but rather a realization that it is satan who plagues us and that turning to God is our only salvation. You fail to realize in all of your criticism that you are not talking about the will of God but the desires of men.
We live in a fallen world. The people that we were taught to look to for guidance have sold us out and aligned themselves with the forces of evil. If you are looking for someone to blame for war then I suggest that you follow the money. War is a very profitable business, good for the economy and great for keeping the public obedient and docile while they get ass raped by wall street.
It is completely untrue to say that Christianity is elitist when the gospels clearly tell the servants of Jesus Christ to spread the world unto all corners of the earth and be tolerant and respectful of your host and do nothing objectionable less you lead another potential follower away from the path. Humble fishermen and a motley crew from a back water outpost on the edge of the Roman empire managed to accomplish this task so effectively that we are still speaking about it today over 2000 years later. Powerful stuff if you ask me.
I agree with you that our initial belief systems come from our family and environment. Fortunately God has given us free will to think for ourselves and determine our own path (as long as we are not dumbed down with excessive chemical intake in our food, water and Rx or mind controlling propaganda spewing from the TVs). Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be answered is one of the teachings of Christ. Spiritualism, the seeking of God, is a universal in human beings. Have no fear that God will reveal himself to all of us as he sees fit.
I applaud the posters who are discerning enough to understand the difference between organized religions and true Christianity that can only be found in the teachings of Jesus found in the pages of the Bible.
I'm sure that everyone has seen the "footsteps on the beach" image where God is showing the man how he was with him throughout his entire life. Being human, the man erroneously rebukes God when he sees that during his darkest moments it appears as though he walked alone, that God had deserted him. God responds that this is when I carried you.
I encourage all who are interested in this subject to watch the following debates:
Dr. William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8
Chris Hedges (Religious but not Christian) vs Christopher Hitchens (audio only sorry BUT WORTH IT!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNL6KrLnnCs
If you want to read the Bible again "For the first time" I HIGHLY recommend the NEW LIVING TRANSLATION study bible by TYNDALE. It is an extraordinary Bible that puts God's word into a modern, easy to comprehend text that will give you new insight into your faith.
Dr. William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8
Chris Hedges (Religious but not Christian) vs Christopher Hitchens (audio only sorry BUT WORTH IT!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNL6KrLnnCs
If you want to read the Bible again "For the first time" I HIGHLY recommend the NEW LIVING TRANSLATION study bible by TYNDALE. It is an extraordinary Bible that puts God's word into a modern, easy to comprehend text that will give you new insight into your faith.
DEAC: You have avoided my previous requests to address your article which began this thread, if you do not then I will assume you cannot. I maintain that the title of the article is patently false and misleading and that the results only demonstrate that when you make people stop and think about their belief in ANYTHING you can create an element of doubt which is reflected in the testing.
Critical thinking does NOT cause people to lose their faith in God.
I said it before, I'll say it again. People who are on the edge trying to find their way will read shit "science" articles like this and say "Oh Crap! I'm smart and I believe in God, I've been tricked! I better join the atheists quick before everyone knows I'm not a critical thinker (even though I'm pretty sure that I am...FFFUUccKKK!!! Everything is backwards!)
DEAC, I'm not trying to engage you in the God vs. no god debate, I'm sure you realize that but I just wanted to say it out loud to be clear. Do you support the premise that critical thinkers will lose their faith in God? That people capable of critical thinking will naturally come to the obvious conclusion that there is no God?
Your response is appreciated.
One more thing before before i head back to Derpville for the night. I would like to remind all posters who have professed their faith in Jesus Christ that this is a non-negotiable deal. Jesus is the Son of God who died for the sins of all men everywhere and was risen from the grave, ascended to heaven with a promise to return and wants a personal relationship with YOU TODAY! (A simple prayer asking Jesus to enter your heart is enough to get started)
Hell is real (separation from God in Heaven, or what I like to think of as eternal aloneness), if you believe that God cast out Lucifer the angel of light, along with 1/3rd of all the angels, how could you doubt that he would cast out the unrepentant sinner? Where do you think these malevonent forces are right now? If you guessed here on earth, there is lots of evidence supporting that assumption. There is no such thing as political correctness in the spiritual war so, sorry but there will be some casualties. DEAL WITH IT!..by telling people about Jesus.
You do not get to pick and choose the tenants of your faith based purely on personal convenience. Having accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior we have a HUGE burden to uphold his teachings and you WILL be persecuted for it by your fellow man. The daily struggle is the hardest, nothing is unimportant.
C.S. Lewis wrote "Mere Christianity" based on radio talks he did for the BBC during WW2 and I highly recommend it.
The church is called the "Body of Christ" in the scriptures for a reason, solidarity is a commandment. I realize that there are 10 to the X power denominations out there and I just don't give a shit. If someone is upholding the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament then you must support them. If a false prophet or teacher is revealed to you then you must expose them. Christianity is a TOLERANT religion of peace that passeth understanding which we hold in our hearts.
The easiest way to spot a false teacher is that they will try to convince you that your salvation comes from within. New age christianity is a plague upon the churches and we must stay vigilant. Luciferianism is rampant in our modern culture, especially with the elites who beleive "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".
Read your Bible every day and pray for God's mercy on us all. God is perfect, humans are imperfect in case you were wondering why things are so screwed up.
Hell is real (separation from God in Heaven, or what I like to think of as eternal aloneness), if you believe that God cast out Lucifer the angel of light, along with 1/3rd of all the angels, how could you doubt that he would cast out the unrepentant sinner? Where do you think these malevonent forces are right now? If you guessed here on earth, there is lots of evidence supporting that assumption. There is no such thing as political correctness in the spiritual war so, sorry but there will be some casualties. DEAL WITH IT!..by telling people about Jesus.
You do not get to pick and choose the tenants of your faith based purely on personal convenience. Having accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior we have a HUGE burden to uphold his teachings and you WILL be persecuted for it by your fellow man. The daily struggle is the hardest, nothing is unimportant.
C.S. Lewis wrote "Mere Christianity" based on radio talks he did for the BBC during WW2 and I highly recommend it.
The church is called the "Body of Christ" in the scriptures for a reason, solidarity is a commandment. I realize that there are 10 to the X power denominations out there and I just don't give a shit. If someone is upholding the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament then you must support them. If a false prophet or teacher is revealed to you then you must expose them. Christianity is a TOLERANT religion of peace that passeth understanding which we hold in our hearts.
The easiest way to spot a false teacher is that they will try to convince you that your salvation comes from within. New age christianity is a plague upon the churches and we must stay vigilant. Luciferianism is rampant in our modern culture, especially with the elites who beleive "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".
Read your Bible every day and pray for God's mercy on us all. God is perfect, humans are imperfect in case you were wondering why things are so screwed up.
