Hedging is for hobbyists........... good read

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Stephen Nover


Because they liked Georgia Tech and not Connecticut in Monday night’s NCAA men’s championship game, the thought of hedging never entered their minds.

But here were two professional gamblers holding a big-money 30-1 future book ticket on Georgia Tech knowing they could have wrapped up some kind of profit if they would have hedged, in other words put some money down on the Huskies, too.

Instead they did what 99 percent of the people in a similar position wouldn’t do. They bet Georgia Tech at +6.

“I thought getting Georgia Tech at plus six offered an advantage,” one of the gamblers said.

There was value taking 6 since the consensus number was Tech +5. But did loading up on the Yellow Jackets make sense when you already stood to win five-figures on a Tech futures wager? Never mind that Connecticut beat Georgia Tech, 82-73. The gamblers weren’t second-guessing themselves afterward.


Like true professionals, they didn’t kick or scream watching the game. They realized the Huskies played well and deserved to win. Their only hope was that by having a great number, +6, they were alive for a back-door push that never materialized.
“From purely a betting standpoint, if you are a professional gambler, you never want to make a wager that has a negative expectation,” said one of the bettors. “So you would only hedge if you honestly liked the other side. I liked Georgia Tech.

“If I would have hedged that meant I would have liked Connecticut. Why would I make a bad bet?”

His point being is why lay 11-to-10 juice on a team you don’t believe in.

“If you make 11-to-10 wagers when you have no opinion, you go broke eventually because you lose the vig (vigorish),” he said. “The only way we would have hedged is if we honestly liked Connecticut.

“If your only reason for betting is just to hedge, most times you will have made bad bets. The idea is if you want to win long term, you can’t afford to make many bad bets.”

This philosophy, though, depends on circumstances. Most recreational bettors would be wise to hedge if they find themselves in a once-in-a-lifetime spot to collect a big amount, with the alternative of getting nothing if their team doesn’t win.

Say you have the opportunity to be the weekly winner in a high-end football contest. You have a perfect card going into the Monday night game, and need the ‘dog to win straight-up. In that case it makes sense to also bet the favorite on the money line thus assuring a profit.

“If you have to pay rent tomorrow then you hedge regardless of the math of your gamble,” the professional gambler said. “Lifestyle decisions factor in then. But it does force you to literally sell your stock short just to lock up a profit.”

Most recreational gamblers need money. They can’t risk riding a long shot all the way through knowing they would get squat if the team lost in the championship game. Professional gamblers have a different standard. They would only hedge if they honestly liked the other side.

For most of us, it would just be nice to have this kind of decision to make.
 

hacheman@therx.com
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most recreational gamblers need money. They can’t risk riding a long shot all the way through knowing they would get squat if the team lost in the championship game. Professional gamblers have a different standard. They would only hedge if they honestly liked the other side. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel this it totally the opposite. If someone doesn't hedge & guarantee a profit, just because they still like the other side, then they aren't very "professional" in my opinion. That's the whole reason and purpose for the word/action to "hedge". It doesn't matter if you still like your original side, if your talking about a substantial amount of profit, then you hedge, no questions asked......
 
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At 30-1 on GaTech why wouldn't you hedge with UConn on the money line? I could see if it was only 4-1 or something with Ga Tech but at 30-1 you have already made a good bet as far as them getting all the way to the final. Why not "take a profit"?
 

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Hache-

Can understand your rationale, but for the most part and on most occassions this is incorrect.

Have debated this many many times in the past, and the best answer always evolves on it coming down to an IDIVIDUALS PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND THE ACTUAL EVENT IN QUESTION TO BE HEDGED.

Each circumstance is different.

Not completely saying you are incorrect HACHE, but for the large part what was said in the opening post is more correct in my beliefs.

This is something that we can hash over much easier when we are having a few beers(whenever that may be) then debating in a public forum.
 

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I was faced with the same decision. For what it's worth, I've copied my thread from the college hoops forum as to how I reached my decision.

Decided to start this thread because as many of you may know, I currently hold a live future play on Georgia Tech +867 to win the championship and in my previous thread was asked who I might play if I didn't hold this play.

Let me begin as I had responded to that question previously, that prior to the games on Saturday, it was my intention that should the Yellowjackets win outright, I would make a play on them in the championship as I expected them to be about a 7 point dog against Connecticut and a 6 point dog against Duke. At first look, prior to the games, this play appeared comfortable to me, however after watching each game closely, I observed some things in each game that I would like to share with you. I will share some discussion about the current line as well.

So let's begin with Georgia Tech. The Yellowjackets were a 5 point dog when I made my play and I was very comfortable with their ability to match-up well with Oklahoma State and felt there was decent line value as my numbers showed the line should have been 1 or 2. The game played out pretty much as I envisioned but there were some very troubling things that I noted. First, Elder was not as mobile as I expected. He could not elevate like he would at full strength and his shooting clearly suffered due to his inability to explode or elevate. He played 19 minutes and was 1-4 with 2 points and 2 rebounds. Plus, by the end of the game he was noticeably limping more then at the beginning of the game. Second Muhammad was suffering from tendonitis in his right knee and he likewise was unable to explode and elevate as he would at full strenth and was also limping at the end of the game. He played 15 minutes and was 1-3 with 4 points and 1 rebound. Last, Moore, who is a good 3 point shooter, didn't even look to take a shot, even when open. He played 15 minutes and was 0-1 with 0 points and 0 rebounds. All three of these guys are important to the success of the Yellowjackets rotation.

Now to Connecticut. The Huskies were very impressive playing without Okafur for 16 minutes in the first half, particularly Boone, Anderson and Villanueva. They had excellent quickness to the ball and withstood Duke's very good defense. They continued to crash the boards and kepy themselves in the game while awaiting the second half. Once Okafur was able to play in the second half, the emotional level that he brought to the game was dramatic. The Huskies played at a very high level in this game and had Okafur not been in foul trouble early, this game may not have been close.

Now, looking at this match-up, I see some problems for the Yellowjackets. Remember, I am fully aware that Georgia Tech dominated Connecticut in the Pre-Season NIT, winning 77-61. Thus, my future play. But, current health and form cannot be overlooked here. When these teams met in November, Okafur was not completely healthy suffering from back spasms. Now, he appears completely healthy and seems to have more emotion then I've ever seem from him. The problems I envision for the Yellowjackets include both inside and outside issues. First, I fully respect the play of Schenscher but feel that he will face a formidable task not only against Okafur but the collapsing defense of Boone and others and could very well get into foul trouble which would totally change the Jackets level of play. Thus, the Jackets may have to rely more on outside shooting then usual as the shot blocking capability of the Huskies is significant. With Elder hobbled and Moore not shooting, the Jackets must rely on Lewis and Bynum, both very capable, but it shortens their rotation of interchangeable talent. Inside, Muhammad and McHenry will find it more difficult to score with the active nature of the Huskies big men and closed down guard defense. Jack may be more than capable of handling the defensive pressure the Huskies bring but he won't be able to drive and dish or score inside as he has been able to do in the last three games. Georgia Tech's defense is one of quality and good rotation to the ball, but with the inside presence of Okafur, will not be able to sag back enough leaving Gordon open. Rebounding will be more difficult due to the active nature of the Huskies bigs.

This brings us to the current line. As stated, I anticipated that the Yellowjackets would be +7, but instead are currently at +6 or +5.5 at many shops. Thus, the line value in my opinion actually favors the Huskies. Given the current health and form of both the Yellowjackets as well as the Huskies, had this oldman not had the future play of Georgia Tech, my lean would be toward Connecticut. That being said, I have decided that I will partially hedge my future play to assure a winning profit as a result of Georgia Tech's win over Oklahoma State and leave a partial remaining interest in the future. In most cases, I don't hedge. But, feel that in this current situation, taking the sure profit is called for and thus my decision. I will buy 5 points and basically take Connecticut at -210 to complete the hedge and take some profit but leave some interest with part of the original future play. I will have no other play on the game, either side or total, and will complete the college hoops season on a winning note.
 

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Hache, I agree to an extent. I think the truth is somewhere in between what Nover and you are saying. In a situation like that 30-1 on GT and similar situations I generally believe in taking at least some prfoit off the top but still leaving some of the original, more generous number on the table (I had 50-1 GT and made sure I returned at least 5 on my 1). I don't think fully covering usually makes sense. With good line shopping and some other creative hedging the "cost" of covering doesn't usually have to be that great. I've had a handful of these situations over the last couple of years and I've never won my original futures bet but have come away with nice chunks of profit by hedging each time. It was hard enough to see the Cubs lose last year when I had them 50-1 to win it all but at least I hedged some off along the way to get around 10 to 1 back on my original investment. In this year's tourney I had 23-1 that no #1 seeds would make the FF. Didn't really think it would happen but at those odds figured I could at least hedge some profit off along the way. I managed to return 8 back on my 1 while I still would have returned 18 had Duke lost to Xavier. Ya gotta be creative and diligent with hedging, but done correctly it's a good way to rack up some profits even if your longshot loses.
 

hacheman@therx.com
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Another point to consider is this. Lets say we take all of the opportunities we've had to hedge in the past, and actually went through with all of them, and did hedge. More than likely we would of landed somewhere around the 50% mark, meaning a good thing we hedged cause the opposite side won, or we didnt hedge, and didn't profit a penny. When we hedge, and it turned out we didn't need to, we are obviously upstet a little because we didn't win near as much as we would of. But.........we feel much worse when we had the opportunity to hedge and guarantee some profit, and didn't do so, therefore losing not only what profit we could of made, but PLUS our original wager.
 

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This is a stupid thread as it's as much BS as it is correct.

A Hedge can even be positive expectation of betting the other side not only secures profit but has value. A hedge that is break even (you are selling it back for the true value no vig because you shopped well) is a smart way to go reducing variance.

Sounds like Mr. Nover just wanted to ink some more delusions of grandeur.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GreenDoberman:
Today's Green Doberman quote:

"No one ever went broke taking a profit"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


GD...how did you come up with that one Sir
icon_wink.gif
 

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