Hate Crimes

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Judge Wapner said:
BBF, the guys that beat Reginald Denny should have been charged with a hate crime. Don't know if the law existed then. Maybe we will see it with the case in Vegas. Let's see.
Why? These hate crime laws are worthless and they are never even applied fairly. A black man would never be convicted of a hate crime against a white. These laws are unfair and don't need to exist.

xpanda said:
Don't confuse civil rights with anti-discrimination. Anti-discrimination laws, by their very nature, are anti-civil rights.

Civil rights and feminist leaders were right to seek an end to gov't legislation that prevented them from full access to all rights and freedoms granted the rest of society (white males, basically.) I'm not 100% on American civil rights laws, but here in Canada women weren't even considered persons until 1957. As a result, we couldn't hold office, couldn't own property, had no legal status with our husbands, etc. The abolition of laws that interfered with or prevented us from realising our full civil rights were necessary. But forcing landlords, businesses, etc. to treat us a 'certain way' is an infringement on their civil rights.

(Besides, I don't need any help getting a job, loan, or apartment. I would very much like to NOT be treated like a child by my government.)
Right on X!

A good post on how capitalism ameliorates racism.

Posted by: HmkPoker
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=5385766&page=0&vc=#Post5385766

People, like everything else, carry variable levels of worth and importance that are relative to the individual valuing them. Most people place a very high value on the life of their children, that is, the needs of their children get greater priority to them than the needs of other people's children. This is obvious, and the reasons are rooted in evolution; species have more reproductive success when they are incentivized to protect their young than when they aren't (excluding other variables). After that, the tendency of human preference tends toward lovers, siblings, parents, and close friends in whatever order the person may have.

We prioritize strangers too. Human beings naturally display preference for members of like kind. A strong patriotic American will care more about the life of a fellow American than a Canadian or German or Palestinian. A Christian will care more about issues affecting a fellow Christian than those of a non-Christian (and even more so if the denomination is the same). White people tend care more about white people than non-whites, as do blacks of blacks vs. non blacks.

This preference is also dependant on how important the grouping mechanism is to them. For example, I care more about a person if I know he is a fellow libertarian than if I know he is a fellow Realtor, but someone with more interest in real estate than politics will prioritize differently. This is a natural trend that will surface for any interest.

It is also natural (although not necessarily right or healthy) for a human to have a negative preference, or a preference toward harm for someone of sufficiently different nature than the individual's "like kind" criteria. Thus we have animosity between Jews and Palestinians, whites and minorities, liberals and conservatives, different generations, social classes, competing businesses, whatever. There is an excellent evolutionary reason for this, as members of other species are not going to contribute to reproductive success of another species, but members of the same species will. As such, aggression towards non-species members is a very useful biological mechanism, as it both allows them to secure food from the bodies of prey, and maintain control of scarce resources in an area from predators. Primitive human tribes were seldom peaceful or diplomatic. Lacking the communication skills or resources necessary to engage competing tribes in trade, strong "us and them" paradigms were necessary for their survival. While it is no longer economically necessary to do this, this emotional tendency still exists. It is especially strong with race, as race is a very obvious means of grouping and identification. Irrational negative biases against blacks, jews, hispanics and others continue to occur, and have negative personal and economic effects.

So how do we end this? One could suggest that we could help end this through a forced exposure to people of unlike kind, as exposure to some form of diversity is necessary for the individual to de-group them as enemies. (I, for example, was a little homophobic before I went to college, but I ended up making friends with a lot of gay people and now don't see gay people as having any different worth or value than straight people...either that or whatever difference there is is too small to be perceptible, that's probably the case.) But exposure doesn't always have this effect. My experiences were positive, but the same experiences can very well have a negative effect. If someone's exposure to certain members of a particular group is highly unfavorable, there is a high probability that they will attribute it to members of the entire group. (If I had only met some very unfavorable gay people, I’d probably be homophobic) A person with a natural bias against members of a group of unlike kind cannot emotionally overcome these biases with unfavorable exposures to them. They must have favorable experiences. That's how human emotional conditioning works.

All attempts by government to forcibly fix this problem fail inevitably. Government is thoroughly incapable of fixing this problem because in its attempt to create equality in areas that it designates, it must create inequality in others, and always to the anger of those involved in the proposed conditioning7. Affirmative action can grant higher positions to some (usually while compromising overall productivity, because businesses naturally want extend their positions to the most qualified), but it cannot give minorities an equal level of value to caucasians as other caucasians. It works to the contrary. Well-qualified white people do not like it when their job goes to a less qualified minority. That's an exposure coupled with directly associated negative emotion. That helps create racism.

Proposals to redistribute wealth based on ethnic groups can not work. Taking money from a demographic that statistically produces more (white males) and giving to a demographic that statistically has less (black females) is a negative experience for white males. People don't like having their money stolen. It associates theft with black women. The natural increase of hostility as a result makes white males inclined to behave negatively toward the out-group, thus doing the same for black females. Feedback.

There is also no reason for the government to intervene. Why? Because as human beings evolve and develop newer and better ways of doing things, they become increasingly rational. Trade is mutually beneficial and a far more effective method of securing resources than fighting over them. There are no significant differences in the productive abilities between races (with the exceptions of results of cultural norms). As such, a black person has the same ability to produce widgits as a white person (assuming that the value of the widgit is not highly influenced by the person who made it in the consumer's mind). People like to make trades, and have strong preference in whom they trade with, and in the absence of other variables they prefer to make them with people who treat them well. Common sense; unfriendly sales reps are going to get less business than affable sales reps.

But the sales rep doesn't want to make less money. He wants to make more money. If friendliness is necessary to securing valued wealth as it is in his position, then capitalism has created a personal incentive for him to act in a manner toward his customers that they like! The tendency to rationally work toward personal goals creates situations where people will naturally associate others with positive affects. Thus, if a white person who is not exposed to many black people has a positive experience with a black person, he is going to emotionally associate his positive affect with black people. Sufficient positive exposures as described make a person less inclined to hate people.

The tendency toward positive-sum economic behaviors naturally makes other people more favorable, as they become providers and not threats. (The exception would be economic competitors, but that just forces people to provide more and be nicer to people, and it's only felt by those rational enough to secure the resources to own the business in the first place, so who cares?) It is natural for human beings to form a collective in-group. Civilization and technology facilitate that we have more and better exposure to other people. No longer will a does a person never venture more than 20 miles from his birthplace, nor do you even have to leave your room to make contact with someone. The health benefits from genetic diversity create rational incentives for cross-breeding. Rational secularism is a superior, homogenous belief structure that is rising. Civilized countries don't have to kill each other for resources anymore; trade is simply better.

The government cannot change the emotional opinions of out-groups through legislation any more than it can stop people's desires to do drugs through anti-drug policies. Government can not stop a white person from hating blacks or vice-versa; it can only create situations that promote it. Natural human incentives will make the problem go away on its own.



The Short Version: Racist hatred is caused by unfavorable exposure to a small representative of the hated group. Favorable encounters increase the individual's liking of the group. This is a function of emotional conditioning which was necessary to our evolution.

Capitalism, which requires parties to act for mutual benefit if they want to secure more valued resources, provides personal incentives for individuals to create favorable encounters with other people. Government situations, like affirmative action, reinforce negative exposures, it inevitably helps identify minorities as undeserving theives. Man's trend toward rationality and self-benefit naturally develop against racist hatred, not toward it. Because of that, the problem will go away more effectively on its own rather than through forced intervention.
 

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I was jumped twice when I was young. Once by a group of black kids, and once by a group of kids from the next town over. Both beatings hurt the same.And both were just as random.
 

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These kids' parents should do the same time as their kids if found guilty! People would be a whole lot better parents if they were to be held responsible for their children's actions.
 

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TheRightSide said:
OMG X I think you are comming over to THERIGHTSIDE

My views of "hate crimes" are well-rooted in my feminist views. Namely, that women can do pretty much anything. The only thing historically stopping us were stupid laws keeping us out. The same is true of minorities. I've felt this way for 20 years now, not a new thing at all.
 

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Levi:

Quick analogy that gets to your point:

Imagine if Bank A refused to give me a mortgage strictly on the basis of my sex. All I need to do is cross the street to Bank X (named for the Chromosome, of course) who would be happy to earn $80k in interest off me. Bank X has a client pool twice as large as Bank A, simply by opening up their doors to women.
 

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People in Canada get fired all the time (for example radio hosts) for exercising their freedom of speech or even freedom of their own religion (read: expression against gays) under the auspices of this draconian hate speech legislation. It's beyond disgusting. Unfortunately, it's another cog in the social engineering machine brought to us by those fascist liberals who are determined to not only run our lives, but our minds now, as well.
 

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JC, if I am a radio host and say all blacks are lazy or criminals. Should I be protected by freedom of speech? I'm not sure. I am certainly entitled to my opinion. But as the station's owner I think I would also be entitled to fire someone who made such a statement.
 

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Judge, I agree. I'd fire anyone who worked for me if they used racist language to my customers. Would I have them arrested and charged? No. But I'd fire them without even thinking about it.
 

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Judge, it's not the station owner's discretion, I'm speaking of. The govt (CRTC) shuts them down.
 

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Well, JC, I think the government does have some responsibility to deter racism. The question then arises, who determines what is racism. The Jimmy The Greek thing is a good example.
 

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The intention of the Hate laws are to protect those who are attacked for being who they are not in a Random attack. I know growing up, there was a group of skinheads who would spend their week-ends "Beating Fa&&ots and Ni&&ers" Is this different then guys who get jumped for a pair of shoes, I think so.
The law is there with the best of intentions but the lawyers may use it overzealously.

These guys could also be taken care of a different way.
beat_nazi.jpg
 

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Judge Wapner said:
Well, JC, I think the government does have some responsibility to deter racism. The question then arises, who determines what is racism. The Jimmy The Greek thing is a good example.

From the thread I bumped, posted by Joey North:

There was a Knights of Columbus hall in B.C that was being rented out by 2 women. The K of C found out it was for a lesbian wedding and cancelled the rental. The women sued under human rights violation and won. The K of C had to pay a few thousand in damages even though it was obvious that they were affiliated with the Catholic Church.

No freedom of religion.

the CRTC pretty much puts the kibosh on any Right of Centre talk radio shows that even discuss gays with a negative light. There was a couple of guys who had a popular show in Winnipeg a few years back and they had their license removed just for saying that "They wouldn't vote Glen Murray in as Mayor because of his sexual orientation". They weren't promoting hate speech, just giving their editorial on the subject, and they were taken off the air by the Liberal party appointed leaders of the CRTC

No freedom of speech.

I hope Harper gets a majority the next go around and we can right this ship in this, and many, many areas.

Kingbill, a crime, is a crime, is a crime. I'd be pretty pissed off if a guy that beat the tar out of black guy got more time than if he did the same to me. Anyone can play the cheap "race card." (And thoughts and opinions no matter how heinous to one person, aren't a crime)

Hate crime legislation = total joke. Liberalism blows!
 

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Joe Contrarian said:
Kingbill, a crime, is a crime, is a crime. I'd be pretty pissed off if a guy that beat the tar out of black guy got more time than if he did the same to me.

Hate crime legislation = total joke. Liberalism blows!

AS always, thanks for the rhetoric.

What if a guy beat the crap out of you because you were an A$$hole compared to a guy beating the crap out of you because you were black.
 

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kingbill said:
The intention of the Hate laws are to protect those who are attacked for being who they are not in a Random attack. I know growing up, there was a group of skinheads who would spend their week-ends "Beating Fa&&ots and Ni&&ers" Is this different then guys who get jumped for a pair of shoes, I think so.
The law is there with the best of intentions but the lawyers may use it overzealously.

The thing is, in a society like ours where people generally frown on racism (and this is true without these laws) and where people are judged by their peers, juries would come to the same conclusion you did with your examples. So would a judge. And so the punishment would likely be tailored, subjectively, accordingly.

But specifically legislating anti-hate means the gov't is telling you what you are not allowed to think. That might be all well and good when the intention is to get us to love each other and spread love and peace, but intentions can change. If the day comes that we have an especially nasty group in power, I'd rather not have laws like that already on the books.
 

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xpanda said:
Levi:

Quick analogy that gets to your point:

Imagine if Bank A refused to give me a mortgage strictly on the basis of my sex. All I need to do is cross the street to Bank X (named for the Chromosome, of course) who would be happy to earn $80k in interest off me. Bank X has a client pool twice as large as Bank A, simply by opening up their doors to women.

How can you justify that when women earn less wages for the same job statistically. You solution is negated by this. So Bank A would have more money and be profitable more than Bank X. It onle takes 10 big male CEOs to out earn every women on the earth. Not trying to be sexist, just a realist.

Example... Name 10 CEOs other than the Ebay CEO who are women? Now there are more than 10, but you can't name them can you?

BDiz...
 

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AS always, thanks for the rhetoric.

You're welcome. Thanks for our 'progressive' society.

What if a guy beat the crap out of you because you were an A$$hole compared to a guy beating the crap out of you because you were black.

What's the difference? :icon_conf

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me."

You know society has gone into the shitter, when an 8 year old has it figured out better than the bureaucrats.
 

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bdizzle said:
How can you justify that when women earn less wages for the same job statistically. You solution is negated by this. So Bank A would have more money and be profitable more than Bank X. It onle takes 10 big male CEOs to out earn every women on the earth. Not trying to be sexist, just a realist.

Example... Name 10 CEOs other than the Ebay CEO who are women? Now there are more than 10, but you can't name them can you?

BDiz...

I was talking about numbers of people, not dollars. Though your point still applies, as many women don't work and would therefore not qualify for a mortgage. My point is just that a bank that denies a specific group for no relevant reason are just bad businessfolk. And for every customer you turn away, there's ten shops across the street happy to take them on.
 

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Pro freedom of speech in any case here. Though I think racial slurs are stupid and will voice my opinion about it, I would refrain my hardest from using violence over it. A better man will walk away from it, but we all know when someone is drunk or in the "heat of the moment" it is hard to do so.

BDiz...
 

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