Greg Maddux every bit as great as Roger Clemens!

Search

Banned
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
80,046
Tokens
Why is it though, Maddux gets so much less recognition?

Maddux has actually been more dominant and more consistent for longer than Roger Clemens...

I am guessing its the perception that Maddux has, compaired with Clemens...one looks like mild mannered
icon_smile.gif
Clark Kent, the other nicknamed The Rocket will shave off a two day old beard with high cheese if your not careful, and if you really tick him off, he may just take a broken bat and wing it at you ,lol...
icon_mad.gif


All kidding aside Greg Maddux has been every bit as good as Roger Clemens...

Maddux playing for a team with not a great home field atmosphere in red hot Atlanta ,I would think he pitched in less favorable conditions than Clemens, even though Turner Field is a pitchers park...while Clemens played in the intense Al East pitching in frenzied stadiums with much more electricity...who couldn't get fired up pitching in NYC and Boston, even Skydome was sold out nightly back then...

Two very different pitchers who should both be mentioned as equals...
 

Banned
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
80,046
Tokens
RATING THE TOP PITCHERS

By Eric Gartman

As great as I think the win shares system is for position players, I don't think its fair for pitchers. There are two main problems with it. One is that it values quantity over quality. A mediocre pitcher with an extended career fares better than a great pitcher with a shorter career. More importantly, it doesn't effectively allow for fair comparison for pitchers from the dead ball era to the lively ball era. For example, Walter Johnson pitched 5900 innings in his career; Grover Cleveland Alexander threw 5200, and Cy Young 7356! Modern pitchers, throwing against beefy hitters in a five-man rather than four-man rotation, simply can't match those totals, and it's not fair to hold it against them. Fortunately, shortly after James published his win shares system, a new system was put forth by G. Scott Thomas, in his book "Leveling the Field." Thomas' idea is simple: Establish a baseline for all players across time based on one five-year period (1996-2000), and compare players based on that era's numbers. We can now finally compare Earned Run Averages across baseball history. Thomas sets up his own formula to compare pitchers based on his revised stats, but like James' system, it could use a little fine-tuning. Whereas the Jamesian system favors quantity over quality, Thomas system makes the opposite mistake. By taking career Earned Run Averages and "Summit" Earned Run Averages (defined as the average of a player's five best years), Thomas' system favors players with shorter careers, as it makes no allowance for longevity. This leads him to include several lesser-known players with fairly short careers in his top ten lists, such as Ron Guidry, Lefty Gomez, and Addie Joss. Thomas also separates Right-Handed and Left-Handed pitchers, a useless differentiation. The James and Thomas system come out with very different ratings for their top pitchers. For example, whereas Thomas rates Greg Maddux as the best pitcher of all-time, James rates him a meager 14. In general, the James system favors older players, while the Thomas system favors current ones.

I propose that in order to fix the Thomas system we continue to examine career and summit ERA's while taking longevity into account as well. To do so, we will look at the number of full seasons a pitcher threw, rather than innings pitched or number of starts. The problem with innings and starts is that dead-ball era pitchers were able to throw many more innings and games than live-ball era pitchers, and we cannot compare pitchers from the two based on those statistics. Full seasons of course are somewhat hard to define, but I simply view a full season as a season when a pitcher's totals were comparable to the league's average of a full load for that time period. I will also count two half-seasons as one full season. When we examine pitchers in this fashion, we find two players whose ERA's are far ahead of anyone else: Walter Johnson and Greg Maddux. The Big Train had an adjusted career ERA of 3.00 (from henceforth all ERA's are adjusted unless otherwise noted) over 20 years, and a summit ERA of 2.17. Greg Maddux, through the 2001 season has a career ERA of 3.05 over 15 seasons and a summit ERA of 2.15, the best in history. Thomas rates Maddux slightly ahead of Johnson since his summit ERA is lower. There is an important point Thomas misses, however. Maddux career ERA is only slightly lower than Johnson, but Johnson pitched for 20 years vs. Maddux 15. Surely Maddux career ERA will be higher by the time he reaches 20-21 years in the bigs. I would therefore have to rate Johnson over Maddux. Incidentally, since the 2001 season, Maddux pitched brilliantly in 2002, actually lowering his career ERA, and maybe even his summit ERA with a 19-9 record and a 2.66 non-adjusted ERA that year. He faltered a bit in 2003, as one would expect from a 37 year-old, and seems well on his way to posting a higher career ERA. After Johnson and Maddux there is a sizeable gap in performance. The third spot is close call between Roger Clemens and Pete Alexander. Alexander pitched for 20 years in the bigs, although he missed most of the 1918 and 1930 seasons. He compiled a lifetime adjusted ERA of 3.31 and a summit ERA of 2.73. Clemens has now pitched for 20 years in the majors, although his adjusted stats only go through 2001. He has a lifetime ERA of 3.38 and a summit ERA of 2.63. I'd give Clemens the edge based on his superior summit stats, and the fact that his career was slightly longer than Alexander's.


After Clemens and Alexander, the next few contenders are very closely matched. Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young had career ERA's of 3.32, 3.35, and 3.37 respectively. Mathewson's summit ERA was 2.78, while Young's was 2.87, and Grove's was 2.88. Young pitched 21 years in the majors, while Mathewson pitched 15 and Grove threw 17. A good case can be made for all three: Mathewson's summit ERA was considerably lower than the other two, while Grove's career ERA was the best (in fact Grove led the league in ERA a record nine times, but he didn't have much competition). Young pitched for much longer than Mathewson or Grove, however. In order to break the tie we shall have to look into some additional information. Lefty Grove was forcibly kept in the minors in 1923-24 when he was already a great pitcher. It may be fair to rank him slightly higher due to missed time. Young's best years were from 1901-1903, when the American League was still forming, and the quality of play was not very high. I would therefore rank Grove fifth, Mathewson sixth, and Young seventh.

Tom Seaver, with a 3.56 lifetime career average and a 2.72 summit average over 19 years, edges Carl Hubbel, who also had a 2.72 summit average, but had a 3.25 lifetime ERA over only 15 years, for the eighth spot. Certainly Hubbel has a big advantage over Seaver in average ERA, but Tom Terrific pitched five more years, and that should count for something. Rounding out the top ten is Warren Spahn with a 3.62 lifetime ERA and a peak of 2.97 in 20 years. Jim Palmer, with a 3.56 career average and a 2.94 peak during a 18-year career for the Baltimore Orioles, has slightly better numbers than Spahn, but Spahn pitched three more years. For the twelfth spot, I'd give the edge to Kid Nichols and his 3.01/3.43 line in 15 and a half seasons over Bob Gibson's 2.92/3.71 also in 15.5 seasons. Number 14 goes to Steve Carlton, who posted 3.06/3.95 in 20 seasons. Carlton is followed by his strikeout rival, Nolan Ryan, who posted a very similar 3.20/3.88 in an astounding 24 seasons. Ryan is followed by one of the more underrated pitchers in recent decades, Gaylord Perry, who had a 3.22/3.92 line in 20 big league seasons.

After Carlton, Ryan, and Perry, there are no pitchers who pitched as effectively for so many years. There are several pitchers who were more effective in fewer years, however. Number 17 goes to fireballer Randy Johnson, who had impressive credentials though the 2001 season: A 3.40 lifetime ERA in eleven full seasons with a peak of 2.50! A stellar 2002 season only bolstered his resume. If Johnson can beat father time and continue to pitch well for another three or four seasons, he could vault up this list. The same goes for another current pitcher, number 18, Pedro Martinez. Through 2001, Pedro had a stunning 2.39/2.74 line in eight full years. Pedro was great again in 2002-2003, leading the league in ERA both seasons. If Pedro stays healthy, at the tender age of 32 he has a chance to join the highest ranking pitchers off all time. At number 19 is Mordechai "Three-Finger" Brown, with a 2.75/3.30 line in twelve seasons. He is followed by Whitey Ford at number 20, with a 3.17/3.27 line in 13 seasons. Ford just edges Juan Marichal who also pitched for 13 seasons, posting a 3.05/3.71 record. Number 22 is an active player, Tom Glavine, who posted a 3.13/3.69 record in 14 seasons through 2001. An impressive 2002 season may have served to boost him past Marichal, but I'd like to see the adjusted stats before making any changes. Glavine pitched very poorly in 2003, however. Glavine is followed by Bob Feller who posted a 3.12/3.69 record in 13 seasons. Feller's low rating may surprise some, but the numbers don't lie. Feller had a fairly short career, due perhaps to overuse. Some claim that the years he lost to World War Two hurt his career record, but as Rob Neyer argues, the time off probably saved his arm for a few more seasons.

By number 24 many people may be wondering where Sandy Koufax is. Koufax posted an impressive peak ERA of 2.71, and a career ERA of 3.38, but in only 10 full seasons. Koufax was forced to retire due to injury at age 30; otherwise he may have posted some of the best numbers in history. I don't think it's fair to argue what could have happened, however. Certainly, Koufax isn't the only one with a great career cut short. Addie Joss was 2.99/3.14 in eight seasons before succumbing to tubercular meningitis in 1914. And Big Ed Walsh was even better than Koufax, going 2.72/2.93 in eight seasons, before his arm went dead. Who knows what they could have done? I think it only fair to rank Walsh 24 and Koufax 25, well below the pitchers who had longer careers, but higher ERA's.

One deserving player who is not on this list is Kevin Brown. For some reason, Brown isn't even mentioned in Thomas book. It's a shame since his career numbers are slightly better than Tom Glavine's. If his numbers were listed, he would easily make this list. Another pitcher has career stats that would seemingly earn him a place on this list. Detroit's Hal Newhouser had a 2.95/3.62 line in 13 seasons. But Newhouser's best years were 1944-46. Most players were off fighting the war in 1944-45, and the quality of play was very low. Many had not yet returned by 1946. Take away those three years and Newhouser is a very ordinary pitcher.

Here are the top Twenty-Five Pitchers, with adjusted summit/career ERA's, number of full seasons pitched, and for active players, number of seasons through 2001 with total number of seasons in parentheses:

1. Walter Johnson 2.17/3.00, 20 Seasons

2. Greg Maddux 2.15/3.05, 15 (17) Seasons

3. Roger Clemens 2.63/3.38, 18 (20) Seasons

4. Pete Alexander 2.72/3.31, 18 Seasons

5. Lefty Grove 2.88/3.32, 17 Seasons

6. Christy Mathewson 2.78/3.35, 15 Seasons

7. Cy Young 2.88/3.37, 21 Seasons

8. Tom Seaver 2.72/3.56, 19 Seasons

9. Carl Hubbel 2.72/3.25, 15 Seasons

10. Warren Spahn 2.97/3.62, 20 Seasons

11. Jim Palmer 2.94/3.56, 18 Seasons

12. Kid Nichols 3.01/3.43, 15.5 Seasons

13. Bob Gibson 2.92/3.71, 15.5 Seasons

14. Steve Carlton 3.06/3.95, 20 Seasons

15. Nolan Ryan 3.20/3.88, 24 Seasons

16. Gaylord Perry 3.22/3.92, 20 Seasons

17. Randy Johnson 2.50/3.40 11 (13) Seasons

18. Pedro Martinez 2.39/2.74 8 (10) Seasons

19. Three-Finger Brown 2.75/3.30, 12 Seasons

20. Whitey Ford 3.17/3.27, 13 Seasons

21. Juan Marichal 3.05/3.71, 13 Seasons

22. Tom Glavine 3.13/3.69, 14 (16) Seasons

23. Bob Feller 3.12/3.69, 13 Seasons

24. Ed Walsh 2.72/2.93, 8 Seasons

25. Sandy Koufax 2.71/3.38, 10 Seasons
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,917
Tokens
I agree he can be mentioned with Clemens...it's a lot harder to be good when you can't throw 95....Maddux is 85-88 on a good day.
 

SSI

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
14,040
Tokens
Maddux was a Pitcher, man to win those games and to have that ERA without the heater, makes him somewhat more impressive.. I watched him make every start (or real close) while in a braves uniform and day in and day out, i didnt see any better.. Location and a devastating change was his biggest assets.. remember how he never ever walked a batter.. great pitcher but best all time, well we just dont think of him in those terms.. Orel H. had a couple years like Maddux had for a career.. i know you guys remember orel in 88.. Hope Maddux gets 300 today.
 

There's always next year, like in 75, 90-93, 99 &
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
15,270
Tokens
Maddux would have been a good pitcher, but not a great one if his strikezone was the same as the rest of the leagues.

How many "backdoor" calls has the guy gotten that havne't been within 6 inches of the plate?
 

rock n' roll king
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
2,957
Tokens
Where's Ron Guidry on that list?I know his career was short but his numbers were always impressive.By the way, Maddux has always been my favorite pitcher.Imagine if he had had the great fastball.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
524
Tokens
Sorry, when you face four or five pitchers spots every game and four or five no. 8 hitters that you can pitch around, the numbers just can't be compared to what Clemens has done in a career facing nine hitters with no pitch arounds.
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
Hanover, so based on that theory should we assume every American league pitcher is better than any National league pitcher with similar numbers? Based on that premise pitchers going from AL to NL should also show improvement in the NL and vice versa.


wil.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
524
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilheim:
Hanover, so based on that theory should we assume every American league pitcher is better than any National league pitcher with similar numbers? Based on that premise pitchers going from AL to NL should also show improvement in the NL and vice versa.


wil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The stats are not comparable. That's all.
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
Hanover, you make a good point, I'm just trying to get a little discussion going about the differences that come into play for pitchers moving between the two leagues.


wil.
 

Banned
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
80,046
Tokens
Maddux' back door fastball is what made him IMO...Lefty's can't do much when the ball looks like its going to hit you in the ass only to catch the inside corner , nothing you can do but tip your hat.

Of course NL pitchers catch a break with the 8 regular hitters...Also they lose a % of wins compared to the juniors circuit hurlers...Pro's and con's on both sides...

Maddux incredible run of winning atleast 15 games, will soon reach 17 STRAIGHT YEARS! That, is amazing!

A .639 lifetime winnning pct., and get this, he has been stuck on 19 wins 5 different times!!?? (only 2 - 20 win seasons)

His best run...1994-1995 / 1995(strike season, he lost about 8 starts due to the strike) 19-2 1.63 ERA ..I don't care where your pitching with a year like that!! and in 1994 the other strike season (he lost another 10 starts due to that strike) 16-6 witha 1.56 ERA...How did he lose 6 games? Maddux won 4 straight Cy Youngs, and his career ERA is 2.89! 13 Gold Gloves and has earned more money in baseball than anyone in history...
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
The 13 Gold Gloves make up for whatever strike out numbers Maddux lacks. Personally I enjoy watching a control guy pitch more that a power pitcher throw.


wil.
 

Banned
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
80,046
Tokens
Maddux will still finish with right around 3000 career strikeouts...His best yr he was at 7.77 per 9 innings (1995)
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,917
Tokens
Other factors to consider would be stadiums played in, offensive and defensive strength of teams they were on, strength of guys who caught them, strength of relief pitchers they played with...etc. etc. You get into analysis paralysis.

Maddux not only has one of the best changes ever, but also the most ball movement...which combined makes him so tough. Maddux has to be ON though to have a good game...if not he's batting practice. Clemens can be OFF and yet win by overpowering you.
 

Member
Handicapper
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
22,534
Tokens
you mean some people rate Clemens as a better pitcher than Maddux?? Did people watch MAddux in the 1990's???
 

Official Rx music critic and beer snob
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
25,128
Tokens
I beg to differ with Rail on this one. Neither chopped liver though.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,869
Messages
13,574,427
Members
100,879
Latest member
am_sports
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com