Fallujah a tough nut

eek. · Nov 11, 2004

I thought they would just fade away once the firepower got turned on.
There must be some real hardcore guys in there.

Xpanda seems to have hit the nail on the head.
The US military are in a giant game of whack-a-mole.

"Villages to the west of the city, thought by the US to be clear of insurgents, are also reporting sniper, mortar and rocket-propelled grenade fire."

Plus the Euro-hospitals are being geared up to receive casualties.

"Bed capacity is reportedly being expanded at the main US military hospital in Europe - at Landstuhl in Germany - to cope with an influx of injured marines from Falluja. "

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=629 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=3>US forces under fire in Falluja

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US forces claim to have control of three-quarters of the city

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>US marines faced strong resistance on day four of a military push against Iraqi insurgents in Falluja.

Troops continued moving into southern parts of the city, and came under heavy and sustained fire at the headquarters they have set up in the centre.

Commanders insisted US-led forces were close to achieving their objectives.

They said 18 marines and five Iraqi soldiers have died so far. About 600 insurgents are reported dead, but the civilian casualty figure is not clear.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=208 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=5>

</TD><TD class=sibtbg> There are more and more dead bodies on the streets and the stench is unbearable

Fadhil Badrani, journalist in Falluja

Read his eyewitness account
Fresh violence in Mosul


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>US officials also said 69 US troops had been wounded during the fighting.

Bed capacity is reportedly being expanded at the main US military hospital in Europe - at Landstuhl in Germany - to cope with an influx of injured marines from Falluja.

Earlier, two US Cobra attack helicopters were forced down by small arms fire while flying over Falluja. The crews of both were rescued.

'Very, very successful'

The BBC's Paul Wood, who was with marines in the heart of Falluja on Thursday, says the troops' forward headquarters was attacked from several directions with rockets and sniper fire.

Insurgents attacked US armoured personnel carriers and wounded several marines, he says.

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Click here for a satellite map of the city showing troop movements and key sites

Enlarge Image

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One marine acknowledged to him that the insurgents had been able to regroup.

But it was a sign of their weakness that they can only carry out sniper or hit-and-run grenade attacks, the soldier said.

Despite the stiff resistance, US chief of staff Gen Richard Myers said on Thursday that the Falluja campaign was proving "very, very successful".

In interviews on US television, Gen Myers said: "We hope that in the next few days we'll be able to return Falluja to the citizens there without the intimidation that the insurgents brought."

But US officials admit the operation in Falluja will not crush the insurgency, and acknowledge many militants may have fled the city before they moved in.

A car bomb in Baghdad that killed 17, as well as an armed rampage in Mosul on Thursday acted as a reminder that the insurgency is not just confined to Falluja.

"I have no doubt... some people did leave before it started," said US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

"We also know that there are a number of hundreds that didn't, and have been killed. Others have been captured."

Humanitarian fear

Some 10,000 US forces and 2,000 Iraqi troops are involved in the battle for Falluja.

Concerns are growing about the humanitarian situation in and around Falluja.

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Red Crescent spokeswoman Firdoos al-Ubadi said Falluja was a "disaster", with doctors unable to reach most Iraqi casualties and medical equipment virtually non-existent.

Residents trapped in the battered city said they could smell the stench of decomposing bodies.

US-led troops have been trying to push the rebels into a corner, by pinning them back against the natural barrier of the Euphrates river.

Marines called in air strikes as they came under heavy fire in central Falluja.

Insurgents appeared to have reached the perimeter of the headquarters they set up, the BBC's Paul Wood said.

Hostage find

At the same time, some marines were pushing out into the city, going literally house to house to try to clear out the insurgents.

Three Iraqi contractors and an Iraqi taxi-driver believed to have been held as hostages were found in a house just outside Falluja.

Troops have been trying to stay inside buildings to avoid exposure to sniper fire. US-led forces said earlier on Thursday they had rid 75% of the city of insurgents in the battle. Villages to the west of the city, thought by the US to be clear of insurgents, are also reporting sniper, mortar and rocket-propelled grenade fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4003549.stm

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eek. · Nov 11, 2004

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=629 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=3>Fresh violence flares in Mosul

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Insurgents attacked several police stations in the city

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Iraqi security forces are reported to have lost control of large parts of the northern city of Mosul.

Masked insurgents overran and set fire to several police stations, looted weapons and ammunition and roamed the streets, setting fire to police cars.

The US military said that it had responded to the upsurge in attacks in the city with both air and ground fire.

Correspondents say Mosul has seen a spate of suicide car bombings against Iraqi and US forces in recent weeks.

'Insurgents are everywhere'

As darkness fell, the sound of explosions and gunfire echoed through the centre of Iraq's third-largest city, AFP news agency reports.

In a statement, the US military said that it had launched an operation in southern Mosul to try to quell the insurgency after a request from the governor.

"Insurgent forces attacked several police stations and other targets within the city," it said.

"In several cases, anti-Iraqi forces exceeded the capabilities of the police on site, requiring reinforcements."

Several insurgents were killed in the strikes, a US military spokeswoman told AFP, without giving numbers.

The city's governor imposed an indefinite curfew on Wednesday after militants killed four members of the Iraqi security forces and a foreign contractor. "It doesn't feel like the police or any local government officials are in charge at all," a resident told Reuters news agency. "The insurgents are everywhere."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4005313.stm
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jeffry22 · Nov 12, 2004

I dont get it eek. whats your point? the more insurgents there are, the more that will die. I read the same news as you and things seem to be going just fine - did you miss the part about all of fallujah smelling of dead bodies - those are Iraqis stupid, that is an extremly positive picture.

American · Nov 12, 2004

In a way, he's rooting for the insurgents. No libs want to see the Iraqi situation go favorably.

docmercer--banned · Nov 12, 2004

American:

Get real ..

Why is it when a "Liberal" speaks the truth about is going on in a war that many Generals - as well as Bush, sr - told Bush to not get involved with, they are jumped for rooting for the enemy?

Get real ... I am a Liberal now because of the fake mentality of the Republican party and this typical response crap ... you and your kind screaming "Traitor" because somone tells the truth about this hellhole Bush got our kids into makes me sick

You should be ashamed of yourself for actually thinking anyone on this board is actually rooting for brave American kids to die ...

jeffry22 · Nov 13, 2004

hey eek - if your offended that someone accuses you of rooting against america, then start supporting us. why do you see a story and assume the worst - almost hoping the worst possible scenario is true. if you reverse the current situation in fallujah... picture a couple thousand US troops surrounded by 12000 insurgents who are pounding us to death , while losing a couple dozen of their own . would any sane person say that things are going well for the US. I suggest you face reality and start supporting the overwelming victories we are achieving in iraq anytime we want.

eek. · Nov 13, 2004

I'm never ever offended by the far right, or surprised.

They always use the same simple tactics for anyone that won't follow the main herd of sheeple to their slaughterhouse.

They rave about traitors, scum, get out our country and suchlike simplistic childish drivel.
Its the usual tired unoriginal old pile of clichés that the older folks would have seen plenty of during the McCarthyism and Vietnam eras.

As soon as they start to use these school playground level arguments I switch off and move on to something that has more meat on it.

The masters of basic tribal propaganda for the modern masses were the Nazis.
You should never ever underestimate the power of large numbers of stupid people.

Herman Goering:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

peskypup · Nov 13, 2004

definition of a liberal?

The new definition of a liberal appears to be:

"Any person who thinks that our strategy in Iraq is half-assed and has so far not produced a net benefit or uncovered weapons of mass destruction."

On that basis I am a liberal, though in other wars such as Afghanistan & The Falklands I was fully in support of the actions. The main differences being that:

1. We were not the aggressors.
2. We had clear goals which did not change every 6 months or so.

It seems to me that strategy here has evolved rather than demonstrating any evidence of planning for the long game. This is okay providing positive results are being delivered, but they are not.

There was never any doubt that we could flatten Falluja if we wanted to. The question was whether we should do so. Personally I would have thought a more careful assault keeping innocent deaths to a minimum is more sensible if you want to minimise coalition deaths in the longer term.

You never saw the UK, for example, resorting to bombing of residential areas in Ireland in the last 30 years no matter what provocation.

Trouble is now flaring up in Mosel, do we flatten that? What about Bagdhad? Why not just flatten the entire country and then leave it?

This may not be our strategy for now, but then flattening Falluja was not our strategy this time last year either.

I have put my money where my mouth is and sold $50,000 short. Having taken the easy short term option in terms of how we dealt with Falluja (ie, minimise US casualties & maximise those of all others involved) we made the medium and long term options less attractive.

jeffry22 · Nov 13, 2004

I have seen no evidence or reporting showing that any innocent people have been killed in fallujah [although no doubt a few have], here again the leftists assume the worst and recomend a half assed strategy that wont work. its unlikely going to be necessary to "flatten" more than a couple more places but that is ultimatly up to the enemy. just think - if they would stop fighting we would stop killing them and then there would be peace.

eek. · Nov 13, 2004

I have seen no evidence or reporting showing that any innocent people have been killed in fallujah

There is a news blackout for independent reporting.

There has now been a state of emergency and curfew restrictions, and restrictions on the extent of press coverage in Iraq for weeks.

Jeez. Don't you people read or something?

lander · Nov 13, 2004

Jeffrey, when you turn 18 are you going to enlist?

You know -- to protect our freedom from people that weren't going to attack us.

jeffry22 · Nov 13, 2004

there is no news blackout. reporters are embedded all over fallujah including some from al-jaziera. if you surf around you will find many many stories all saying that there are very few civilians present with most of those probably being insurgents who would like to escape. What is happening in fallujah now is perhaps our finest hour. think about it - the heart of the insurgency, strong, proud, defiant fallujah reduced to a smoking ruin. no calls to prayer in the city of mosques, no more IED factories, no more sanctuaries for foreign terrorists, only the stench of death. The message we are sending in fallujah and soon ramadi will be heard loud and clear by ordinary iraqis. Oh by the way frenchy, we were attacked by the japanese at pearl harbor but we declared war on germany and italy as well.

lander · Nov 13, 2004

Um, Jeffy-poo, Japan was in cahoots (Axis) with your Nazi heroes per the Tripartite Pact.

I think they'll get to this during your Junior year -- hang in there, work hard and you too can be a 'C' student.

docmercer--banned · Nov 13, 2004

Jeffrey:

Get ready ... more of "Our finest hours" ahead as American troops are gonna be busy like Red Adair after the Gulf War putting out one hot spot after another
This is a nitemare ..

xpanda · Nov 13, 2004

Jeff: eek said there was an independent media blackout. In other words, the only information coming out of Fallujah is from embedded reporters and CENTCOM, both of which are under military control.

The insurgents in Fallujah have more than likely dispersed to other regions. This isn't the first time the Sunni militias have popped up and then gone underground again after the US thought they had them all. They are a terribly resilient lot.

If ever the day comes when the Sunni militias and the jihadists conspire in this insurgency, the US will be well screwed. Guerrilla wars are hardly their strong suit.

jeffry22 · Nov 14, 2004

fallujah isnt such a tough nut now is it? once again the doom and gloomers are proven wrong, even cnn reported today that there are almost no civilians in the town. not that it would bother me if there were. I can understand how someone can disagree with the war, but are you people so jaded that you cant even accept any positive developments for what they are? a thousand dead insurgents is a good thing, a destroyed fallujah is a good thing. those of you who call this a failure and worry about every ridiculous possibility better get ready, there will be more such failures in the coming weeks.

peskypup · Nov 14, 2004

Poll please

Can we have a poll please?

Does jeffrey22 live in:

a) The USA
b) Cloud cuckoo land

I vote b.

eek. · Nov 14, 2004

but we declared war on germany and italy as well.

You just failed your history test too son.

Japan declared war on you. You declared war on Japan.

...do a bit of reading on what happened next, and who we have to thank for getting you guys properly involved ASAP.

Still glad you came along for the show anyway btw.

TomKing · Nov 14, 2004

doc mercer said:
Get ready ... more of "Our finest hours" ahead as American troops are gonna be busy like Red Adair after the Gulf War putting out one hot spot after another
This is a nitemare ..

waah waah ....war is a 'nitemare' waah waah.

eek. · Nov 14, 2004

History, especially social history, is dead interesting.

The 'America First' type lobby had over 70% support in April 1941.
Roosvelt had a real uphill fight on his hands at this stage.
This is hardly surprising, since the USA barely got a thankyou for its sacrifice in WW1 only 20 odd years earlier.
And now, the eejits in europe were at it again....

Lindbergh speech. April 1941.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/speeches/lindy.php

"I say it is the interventionist in America, as it was in England, and in France, who gives comfort to the enemy. I say it is they who are undermining the principles of democracy when they demand that we take a course to which more than 80 percent of our citizens are opposed. I charge them with being the real defeatists, for their policy has led to the defeat of every country that followed their advice since this war began. There is no better way to give comfort to an enemy than to divide the people of a nation over the issue of foreign war. There is no shorter road to defeat than by entering a war with inadequate preparation. Every nation that has adopted the interventionist policy of depending on some one else for its own defense has met with nothing but defeat and failure. When history is written, the responsibility for the downfall of the democracies of Europe will rest squarely upon the shoulders of the interventionists who led their nations into war uninformed and unprepared. With their shouts of defeatism, and their disdain of reality, they have already sent countless thousands of young men to death in Europe. From the campaign of Poland to that of Greece, their prophesies have been false and their policies have failed. Yet these are the people who are calling us defeatists in America today. And they have led this country, too, to the verge of war. "