Exchanges are great for ultra-small players !

[Doug]

I offer 3-5 cents better than Pinny, it goes nowhere:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE id=dgUnSettBet style="BORDER-RIGHT: #dedfde 1px; BORDER-TOP: #dedfde 1px; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #dedfde 1px; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: black; BORDER-BOTTOM: #dedfde 1px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" borderColor=#dedfde cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 rules=cols align=center border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 16:14:23</TD><TD>1290902</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Calgary Flames v Los Angeles Kings</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5</TD><TD align=right>-121</TD><TD align=right>205.60</TD><TD align=right>169.91 </TD><TD align=right>0.85</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 16:02:49</TD><TD>1290821</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Phoenix Coyotes v St. Louis Blues</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 6</TD><TD align=right>+114</TD><TD align=right>127.19</TD><TD align=right>145.00 </TD><TD align=right>0.72</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 15:44:57</TD><TD>1290639</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5.5</TD><TD align=right>+106</TD><TD align=right>23.17</TD><TD align=right>24.57 </TD><TD align=right>0.12</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 15:42:33</TD><TD>1290631</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Phoenix Coyotes v St. Louis Blues</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 6</TD><TD align=right>+114</TD><TD align=right>244.24</TD><TD align=right>278.43 </TD><TD align=right>1.39</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 15:40:52</TD><TD>1290626</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Money Line</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks</TD><TD align=right>+141</TD><TD align=right>31.21</TD><TD align=right>44.01 </TD><TD align=right>0.22</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:57:18</TD><TD>1290391</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5.5</TD><TD align=right>+106</TD><TD align=right>21.96</TD><TD align=right>23.27 </TD><TD align=right>0.12</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:56:41</TD><TD>19051165</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Calgary Flames v Los Angeles Kings</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5</TD><TD align=right>-121</TD><TD align=right>520.40</TD><TD align=right>430.09 </TD><TD align=right>2.15</TD><TD>Offer</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:56:41</TD><TD>1290385</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5.5</TD><TD align=right>+106</TD><TD align=right>59.77</TD><TD align=right>63.35 </TD><TD align=right>0.32</TD><TD>Bet</TD></TR><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:48:18</TD><TD>19050618</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 5.5</TD><TD align=right>+106</TD><TD align=right>395.10</TD><TD align=right>418.81 </TD><TD align=right>2.09</TD><TD>Offer</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:47:03</TD><TD>19050544</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks v Colorado Avalanche</TD><TD>Money Line</TD><TD>Vancouver Canucks</TD><TD align=right>+141</TD><TD align=right>668.79</TD><TD align=right>942.99 </TD><TD align=right>4.71</TD><TD>Offer</TD></TR><TR><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:45:52</TD><TD>19050481</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Phoenix Coyotes v St. Louis Blues</TD><TD>Totals</TD><TD>Ov 6</TD><TD align=right>+114</TD><TD align=right>228.57</TD><TD align=right>260.57 </TD><TD align=right>1.30</TD><TD>Offer</TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #efefef"><TD>25 Nov 2006 14:44:15</TD><TD>19050374</TD><TD>Bet</TD><TD>Minnesota Wild v Columbus Blue Jackets</TD><TD>Money Line</TD><TD>Columbus Blue Jackets</TD><TD align=right>+140</TD><TD align=right>600.00</TD><TD align=right>840.00 </TD><TD align=right>4.20</TD><TD>Offer</TD></TR><TR style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><TD>Total</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD align=right>3,126.00 </TD><TD align=right>3,641.00 </TD><TD align=right>18.21 </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: x-small; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #cccccc" vAlign=center align=right><TD colSpan=11>1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TR><TD style="WIDTH: 3px" width=3> </TD><TD align=right>
export to file </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TR></TBODY></TABLE></FORM>

 

[SportSavant]

It is real weird that there isnt more volume at Mansion given their much cheaper commission, and their cheaper deposit/withdrawal options....

I really dont get it.....

maybe because Matchbook is using such a customer service friendly interface and they are working off the reputation of WSEX.... still, weird.

 

[SportSavant]

incidentally, I have had offers filled at Mansion today

I got Boise -3 +120
I got Boston Bruins +173
Florida Panthers +212
Nashville -122
Columbus +139

all these prices much better than I could have got at Pinny, so there are people buying, but I do agree that volume is real low.

 

[X-Files]

It's much like Wildbill said in his recent article. Both "M" exchanges operate "within" Pinny. Pinny is where you look, then you base your offers off of Pinny. Mansion has a clear edge by not charging 2%, but the stuff often doesn't fill, for some reason.

In 5 years Matchbook will be here, but Mansion likely wont be. It's about making money, MB operates like a business trying to charge a reasonable fee and turning a profit, Mansion needs huge volume, and they don't get it, otherwise my offers would fill fast.

Mansion is an unprofitable failure.

I wonder if at some point, if Mansion ever cums up for sale,
if Pinny might be interested in buying them. Mansion must
make a killing in their casino/poker. And this would get Piny
into the exchange market competition.

 

[Doug]

I think Pinny would just do it from scratch, and add their own tweaks to it, but I don't see Pinny going exchange, they are the alternative to the exchange, and already have the option to submit a desired price, but I think few do it.

 

[Labeeb]

Speaking of that feature, what percentage of your offers get filled at Pinny? Do they normally fill them right before the start of the event or will you have time to take another number if it doesn't fill? I know I had forgotten all about it.

 

[Doug]

look how little is there at Mansion, and how far apart offers are :

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl7_rotationNo>711</TD><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl7_eventName>Los Angeles Clippers v Minnesota Timberwolves</TD><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl7_time align=left width=32>20:05</TD><TD id=Td1 align=left width=70></TD><TD width=12> </TD><TD width=12><INPUT class=selectForPin id=CHPIN_82652:82653:82654 title="Add - My Markets" type=checkbox></TD><TD width=12> </TD><TD width=12> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE id=Table2 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl8_tdTeamA style="WIDTH: 200px; TEXT-ALIGN: right; _width: 202px">Los Angeles Clippers</TD><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl8_versus style="WIDTH: 150px; TEXT-ALIGN: center">v</TD><TD id=EventsFragment1__ctl8_tdTeamB style="WIDTH: 197px; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Minnesota Timberwolves</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=hr2 colSpan=20></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE id=mar82652 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=active><TD class=leftvol id=vol1194002>2,600
</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT id=C_1194002_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=leftodds id=odd1194002>-130
</TD><TD class=leftsel>
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD onclick=ToggleOtherHandicaps(this) align=middle width=153>Money Line
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD class=rightsel>
</TD><TD class=rightodds id=odd1194003 align=right>+128
</TD><TD class=rightchk><INPUT id=C_1194003_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=rightvol id=vol1194003>47
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194002><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194003><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=hr2 colSpan=20></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=mar82653 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class="hidden passive"><TD class=leftvol id=vol1194028>4,210
</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT id=C_1194028_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=leftodds id=odd1194028>-110
</TD><TD class=leftsel>-3
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD onclick=ToggleOtherHandicaps(this) align=middle width=153>

Point Spread
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD class=rightsel>+3
</TD><TD class=rightodds id=odd1194029 align=right>-110
</TD><TD class=rightchk><INPUT id=C_1194029_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=rightvol id=vol1194029>4,210
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194028><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194029><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class="hidden passive"><TD class=hr colSpan=20></TD></TR><TR class=active><TD class=leftvol id=vol1194026>116
</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT id=C_1194026_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=leftodds id=odd1194026>+114
</TD><TD class=leftsel>-3.5
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD onclick=ToggleOtherHandicaps(this) align=middle width=153>

Point Spread
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD class=rightsel>+3.5
</TD><TD class=rightodds id=odd1194027 align=right>-121
</TD><TD class=rightchk><INPUT id=C_1194027_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=rightvol id=vol1194027>246
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194026><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194027><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class="hidden passive"><TD class=hr colSpan=20></TD></TR><TR class="hidden passive"><TD class=leftvol id=vol1194024>203
</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT id=C_1194024_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=leftodds id=odd1194024>+121
</TD><TD class=leftsel>-4
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD onclick=ToggleOtherHandicaps(this) align=middle width=153>

Point Spread
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD class=rightsel>+4
</TD><TD class=rightodds id=odd1194025 align=right>-131
</TD><TD class=rightchk><INPUT id=C_1194025_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=rightvol id=vol1194025>239
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194024><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194025><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=hr2 colSpan=20></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE id=mar82654 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=active><TD class=leftvol id=vol1194066>49
</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT id=C_1194066_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=leftodds id=odd1194066>+123
</TD><TD class=leftsel>Ov 189
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD onclick=ToggleOtherHandicaps(this) align=middle width=153>

Totals
</TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD class=rightsel>Un 189
</TD><TD class=rightodds id=odd1194067 align=right>-130
</TD><TD class=rightchk><INPUT id=C_1194067_B type=checkbox></TD><TD class=rightvol id=vol1194067>650
</TD></TR><TR class=hidden id=graphtr1194066><TD class=graph colSpan=20>
</TD></TR><TR class="" id=graphtr1194067><TD class=graph colSpan=20><TABLE id=contentTableOut cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><SCRIPT> var arrVal = new Array(3); for ( var i=0; i <3; i++ ) { arrVal = new Array(4); } function populate() { parent.populateGraph( 1194067, document.getElementById('content').innerHTML ); parent.populateGraph( 1194067, document.getElementById('content').innerHTML, arrVal ); } </SCRIPT><SCRIPT> arrVal[0][0] = '1194066'; arrVal[0][1] = '1'; arrVal[0][2] = '+123'; arrVal[0][3] = '48.34438002009'; </SCRIPT><TBODY><TR><TD class=hr colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD id=td_0 title=Bet width=155><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftvol>49</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT class=checkbox id=G_1194066_0 onclick="SelectBetChkGraph(this, '1194066','1', '+123', '48.34438002009', '0');" type=checkbox> </TD><TD class=leftodds>+123</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD><TABLE class=graphwidth cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftBarColor width="9.8%"> </TD><TD width="90.2%"> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT> arrVal[1][0] = '1194066'; arrVal[1][1] = '1'; arrVal[1][2] = '+112'; arrVal[1][3] = '499.999919761125'; </SCRIPT><TR><TD class=hr colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD id=td_1 title=Bet width=155><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftvol>500</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT class=checkbox id=G_1194066_1 onclick="SelectBetChkGraph(this, '1194066','1', '+112', '499.999919761125', '1');" type=checkbox> </TD><TD class=leftodds>+112</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD><TABLE class=graphwidth cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftBarColor width="100%"> </TD><TD width=0%> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT> arrVal[2][0] = '1194066'; arrVal[2][1] = '1'; arrVal[2][2] = '-109'; arrVal[2][3] = '32.328586653489'; </SCRIPT><TR><TD class=hr colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD id=td_2 title=Bet width=155><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftvol>33</TD><TD class=leftchk><INPUT class=checkbox id=G_1194066_2 onclick="SelectBetChkGraph(this, '1194066','1', '-109', '32.328586653489', '2');" type=checkbox> </TD><TD class=leftodds>-109</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=vr></TD><TD><TABLE class=graphwidth cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=leftBarColor width="6.6%"> </TD><TD width="93.4%"> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Doug]

Speaking of that feature, what percentage of your offers get filled at Pinny? Do they normally fill them right before the start of the event or will you have time to take another number if it doesn't fill? I know I had forgotten all about it.

I don't think I've tried it for over a year, so no answer. There was a setting to how long your bid was valid for, so you essentially say to Pinny... "I propose this bet, and give you 10 minutes or 2 hours to take it or not "

 

[Labeeb]

Oh, ok. I tried to find it on their site and I can't locate it anymore.

 

[Doug]

I can't find it either, but it used to exist, maybe nobody used it ? I've done it to check it out, but it never got to be a habit.

 

[X-Files]

I think Pinny would just do it from scratch, and add their own tweaks to it, but I don't see Pinny going exchange, they are the alternative to the exchange, and already have the option to submit a desired price, but I think few do it.

I think you are right that few use that option. That it is offered suggests
that they are concerned about the exchange competition and that it
might significantly cut into their bottom line, if it is not already doing so.
But it wouldn't surprise me, as you said, if they start their own exchange,
as they did with the casino.

 

[Doug]

I think you are right that few use that option. That it is offered suggests
that they are concerned about the exchange competition and that it
might significantly cut into their bottom line, if it is not already doing so.
But it wouldn't surprise me, as you said, if they start their own exchange,
as they did with the casino.

I think the option was terminated, and nobody even noticed it. I don't think Pinny cares about exchanges... if there is still room for CRIS to operate at full vig, then Pinny with low juice has their place.

Every book has a casino.

Where's Pinny poker ?

 

[WildBill]

Pinny has so finely tuned their model it would be a waste to throw it out and go with an exchange. I could see them buying someone else's exchange up though and running it "silently".

Lets all remember too folks that Betfair lays this all to waste, if only they could get into the US. Would love to be a fly on the wall in their offices and hear what they are saying about the US market. Not being a public company and being solidly based in the UK which is making major moves to regulate and not block operators from serving the US, they could conceivably do it. They are probably watching what is happening to MB and Mansion and might make a call on it from that. They clearly make enough money without the US market, but if Americans stopped being so lazy and took 10 minutes to learn how to bet on an exchange I think the proposition would be too good to pass up. In the exchange world competition hurts almost as much as it helps. If MB jacked up their fees another competitor would quickly emerge.

 

[syddiggers]

I agree WildBill. I would place Betfairs invention as being greater than that of sliced bread. If they had the volume for their US sports, they could take over the world, im talking the entire free world, not just the gambling part. The volume they do on tennis, golf and soccer is scary.

It wouldnt even take people ten minutes to learn how to use an exchange, and I think that laziness and fear are only things stopping people. The same people rave about Pinnys low juice yet they dont even want to explore the exchange option.

 

[X-Files]

Pinny has so finely tuned their model it would be a waste to throw it out and go with an exchange. I could see them buying someone else's exchange up though and running it "silently".

Lets all remember too folks that Betfair lays this all to waste, if only they could get into the US. Would love to be a fly on the wall in their offices and hear what they are saying about the US market. Not being a public company and being solidly based in the UK which is making major moves to regulate and not block operators from serving the US, they could conceivably do it. They are probably watching what is happening to MB and Mansion and might make a call on it from that. They clearly make enough money without the US market, but if Americans stopped being so lazy and took 10 minutes to learn how to bet on an exchange I think the proposition would be too good to pass up. In the exchange world competition hurts almost as much as it helps. If MB jacked up their fees another competitor would quickly emerge.

Isn't Betfair in the same boat as all the other UK sports gambling
portals, i.e. scared shitless of US business? I understand that,
unlike others in the UK, they never have accepted US customers.
So at the present time BF won't touch them with even a hail
mary. How is it they would "lay to waste" if Bush let them in
w/o cutting their balls off?

 

[WildBill]

Isn't Betfair in the same boat as all the other UK sports gambling
portals, i.e. scared shitless of US business? I understand that,
unlike others in the UK, they never have accepted US customers.
So at the present time BF won't touch them with even a hail
mary. How is it they would "lay to waste" if Bush let them in
w/o cutting their balls off?

Most of the companies who have cut and run are publicly traded companies. Betfair has avoided the lure of public money because quite frankly they don't need it. A well run exchange business is simply brilliant. Think of it as poker all over again, but less the hundreds of competitors. Your real variable is how much you want to spend on advertising. Otherwise once you ramp up your capacity then you just cash checks. Small risks, small staff, very little ramp up costs and it all generates you incredibly fat profits. The old world bookmaking style of books taking on decisions just doesn't work like it used to. The betting world is too liquid and too bignow to have too much gamble in you unless you are extremely sharp. A few books have that sort of talent, most don't. I would guess even Pinny isn't gambling anywhere near what they used to.