I AM REELING FROM THIS GAME, I LOVE MY CUBS AND THEY HAVE PLAYED ONE OF THEIR WORST GAMES OF THE SEASON TONIGHT....
BUT ITS BEEN ONE HELL OF A RIDE THIS YEAR, AND I AM PROUD OF THEM.......
BUT TO SAY THAT BAKER IS A POST SEASON CHOKER IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT I DONT BELIEVE...I THINK HE IS A VERY GOOD MANAGER, AND HAS GOTTEN THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS.....
THEY JUST DIDNT HAVE IT TONIGHT....
I THINK LAST NIGHT REALLY TOOK A LOT OUT OF THEM.......
BUT ITS BEEN ONE HELL OF A RIDE THIS YEAR, AND I AM PROUD OF THEM.......
BUT TO SAY THAT BAKER IS A POST SEASON CHOKER IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT I DONT BELIEVE...I THINK HE IS A VERY GOOD MANAGER, AND HAS GOTTEN THE MOST OUT OF HIS PLAYERS.....
THEY JUST DIDNT HAVE IT TONIGHT....
I THINK LAST NIGHT REALLY TOOK A LOT OUT OF THEM.......
I agree man, What the fvck did Dusty Baker have Mark Prior throw 116 pitches in game 2 the 8th inning with the cubbies leading 11-0, What a Joke, Of course they could of save his arm for game 6, But no. What happens next, Prior pitch a great game but ran out of gas, Thanks to Dusty, Florida rallys scores 8 runs in the eight and cost them the game. Also, what the fvck did he put farnsworth in this game, when he got hit hard yesterday, He should have put in zambrano or clement like you suggested, But No. Man, What a Fvcking Joke this Dusty Baker is.
Remember last year, The Giants led 5-0 bottom of the 7th against the angels in the world series. Russ ortiz was pitching one hell of a game. Didn't throw that many pitches but gave up back to back singles to start the 7th inning so what does Dusty do, Brings in the Felix rodriquez, gives up a 3 run homer on the first batter he faces, Angels then rally to win the game 6-5 in game 6 and then the following day went on to win the world series. Like I said Dusty "Fvcking" Baker is a Joke.
and he's a racist also
No question, absolutely gawdawful handling of the pitching staff by Dusty.
It was much harped upon after game 2, but it bears repeating: leading 8-0 after 5 innings, there was absolutely no reason Mark Prior should've been stretched to the hilt in game 2. Had he been pulled after 5, maybe he's able to come back and pitch game 5 at Pro Player on 3-days rest and shut down the Fish.
Hell, pull him out even earlier than the fifth...Managers have this 'thing' that unless he's absolutely stinking up the joint, a starter can't be pulled before he's pitched 5 innings because that's the minimum number of innings required for a starter in order to qualify for a W. But since when do personal stats take precedence over the good of the team, especially in the postseason? I don't want to hear any crap about how the Marlins COULD have come back from an early 8-run deficit in game 2, and thus, keeping your best pitcher in there is advisable. That's a bunch of crap. The fact is, 8th inning game 6 notwithstanding, such a comeback is exceedingly unlikely. Better to pull your ace and save him for later in the series.
It amazes me -- you see this time and again through baseball games from game 1 of the regular season through the playoffs: there's a certain 'forgiveness' factor that plays into how a manager treats a starting pitcher vs. how he would treat any other. Late game situation, with a reliever on the hill in a tight game, the manager is playing the game batter to batter, matchup-to-matchup...if the guy I've got on the hill doesn't match up favorably against the next batter, I don't care if he's only pitched 3 pitches to one batter and struck him out...I'm yanking him to give myself the best possible odds against the next guy. Same is true if he starts to falter...a reliever can give up hits/walks to no more than, say, 2-3 consecutive hitters before he's gone.
But a starter? Even if his pitches are up, he's lost control, he's falling behind every batter...there's this weird tendency managers have to let them stick it out...both in the early innings, and even in the late innings if he'd been pitching well up to that point. To me, even as a fan watching on TV, with a helluva lot less knowledge about the ins and outs of a particular pitcher, and an inability to speak to him and see how he's feeling, it's very clear when a pitcher starts to tire -- and not just because he starts giving up hits and runs, but because the way his pitches start to flatten out, the batters start to catch up, and he loses control. If I can see it, the managers certain can...so why the hell do they insist on letting these guys continue to throw until it's too late and they've given up the lead? I can understand the theory of staying with a starter when you sense he's tiring in an early-season game...if you kept yanking him at the first sign of trouble, you'd A) exhaust your bullpen, and B) not allow the pitcher to learn how to pitch out of trouble and build character. But come on! This is the LCS! Game 7! Wood was not on from the GET-GO. Once Dusty had a 2-run lead, he should have protected it with his life. He's got 10 guys in the pen ready and rarin' to go...why oh why does he let Wood continue to pitch to batter after batter in the pivotal 5th inning? Why do managers consistently and constantly not make the change until they've already relinquished the lead or put their relievers in enormously difficult situations?
I'll never, ever understand it. It's a managerial technique I see ALL the time from all managers...and more than The Fan or Alex Gonzalez's error, it's what cost the Cubs this series.
Fine for me as a gambler...I made a small fortune on the Fish...but as a baseball fan, it irks me to no end to see this stuff.
McKeon, on the other hand, handled things much better. Redman, clearly not on his game, was gone after 3 innings. And in a very gutsy move you almost never see, and wasn't talked about much, he brings in a very valuable commodity -- a strong right handed pitcher in Brad Penny -- for only ONE inning in the fourth..and he knew it would be only one inning, because the Fish had the pitcher's spot due up first in the top of the 5th. McKeon understood that, down two runs already and facing a guy who, even though off his game, was still the NL strikeout king -- he could afford to give up no more. He needed to shut the Cubs down, and if that meant burning a star pitcher after one inning, so be it: he wouldn't chance an ineffective Redman for another frame, nor would he waste an out by allowing Penny to bat for himself in the top of the 5th. Smart move, both in the way it turned out, and in theory. I'm CERTAIN Dusty would not have played it that way...if he were managing the Marlins, he definitely would've chanced Redman for another inning, or let Penny hit for himself if he decided to bring him in.
Managing wins and loses ballgames.
It was much harped upon after game 2, but it bears repeating: leading 8-0 after 5 innings, there was absolutely no reason Mark Prior should've been stretched to the hilt in game 2. Had he been pulled after 5, maybe he's able to come back and pitch game 5 at Pro Player on 3-days rest and shut down the Fish.
Hell, pull him out even earlier than the fifth...Managers have this 'thing' that unless he's absolutely stinking up the joint, a starter can't be pulled before he's pitched 5 innings because that's the minimum number of innings required for a starter in order to qualify for a W. But since when do personal stats take precedence over the good of the team, especially in the postseason? I don't want to hear any crap about how the Marlins COULD have come back from an early 8-run deficit in game 2, and thus, keeping your best pitcher in there is advisable. That's a bunch of crap. The fact is, 8th inning game 6 notwithstanding, such a comeback is exceedingly unlikely. Better to pull your ace and save him for later in the series.
It amazes me -- you see this time and again through baseball games from game 1 of the regular season through the playoffs: there's a certain 'forgiveness' factor that plays into how a manager treats a starting pitcher vs. how he would treat any other. Late game situation, with a reliever on the hill in a tight game, the manager is playing the game batter to batter, matchup-to-matchup...if the guy I've got on the hill doesn't match up favorably against the next batter, I don't care if he's only pitched 3 pitches to one batter and struck him out...I'm yanking him to give myself the best possible odds against the next guy. Same is true if he starts to falter...a reliever can give up hits/walks to no more than, say, 2-3 consecutive hitters before he's gone.
But a starter? Even if his pitches are up, he's lost control, he's falling behind every batter...there's this weird tendency managers have to let them stick it out...both in the early innings, and even in the late innings if he'd been pitching well up to that point. To me, even as a fan watching on TV, with a helluva lot less knowledge about the ins and outs of a particular pitcher, and an inability to speak to him and see how he's feeling, it's very clear when a pitcher starts to tire -- and not just because he starts giving up hits and runs, but because the way his pitches start to flatten out, the batters start to catch up, and he loses control. If I can see it, the managers certain can...so why the hell do they insist on letting these guys continue to throw until it's too late and they've given up the lead? I can understand the theory of staying with a starter when you sense he's tiring in an early-season game...if you kept yanking him at the first sign of trouble, you'd A) exhaust your bullpen, and B) not allow the pitcher to learn how to pitch out of trouble and build character. But come on! This is the LCS! Game 7! Wood was not on from the GET-GO. Once Dusty had a 2-run lead, he should have protected it with his life. He's got 10 guys in the pen ready and rarin' to go...why oh why does he let Wood continue to pitch to batter after batter in the pivotal 5th inning? Why do managers consistently and constantly not make the change until they've already relinquished the lead or put their relievers in enormously difficult situations?
I'll never, ever understand it. It's a managerial technique I see ALL the time from all managers...and more than The Fan or Alex Gonzalez's error, it's what cost the Cubs this series.
Fine for me as a gambler...I made a small fortune on the Fish...but as a baseball fan, it irks me to no end to see this stuff.
McKeon, on the other hand, handled things much better. Redman, clearly not on his game, was gone after 3 innings. And in a very gutsy move you almost never see, and wasn't talked about much, he brings in a very valuable commodity -- a strong right handed pitcher in Brad Penny -- for only ONE inning in the fourth..and he knew it would be only one inning, because the Fish had the pitcher's spot due up first in the top of the 5th. McKeon understood that, down two runs already and facing a guy who, even though off his game, was still the NL strikeout king -- he could afford to give up no more. He needed to shut the Cubs down, and if that meant burning a star pitcher after one inning, so be it: he wouldn't chance an ineffective Redman for another frame, nor would he waste an out by allowing Penny to bat for himself in the top of the 5th. Smart move, both in the way it turned out, and in theory. I'm CERTAIN Dusty would not have played it that way...if he were managing the Marlins, he definitely would've chanced Redman for another inning, or let Penny hit for himself if he decided to bring him in.
Managing wins and loses ballgames.
Dogs,
I couldn't agree more, and let's take this 1 step further. Game 6 in the 8th with a 3 run lead slipping away, why not bring Wood in to nail it down? If he gives up the lead you pull him with minimal pitches, and if he saves it...
Relying on a bullpen that has been shaky all year long in this situation is crazy.
The bullpen is what lost the series for the Cubs. Not only by not getting outs, but also by forcing Wood and Prior to go deep into every game they start. These guys are simply wore out.
Good luck,
BL
I couldn't agree more, and let's take this 1 step further. Game 6 in the 8th with a 3 run lead slipping away, why not bring Wood in to nail it down? If he gives up the lead you pull him with minimal pitches, and if he saves it...
Relying on a bullpen that has been shaky all year long in this situation is crazy.
The bullpen is what lost the series for the Cubs. Not only by not getting outs, but also by forcing Wood and Prior to go deep into every game they start. These guys are simply wore out.
Good luck,
BL
And you are going to claim the Cubs would even be here without Baker? Maybe he didn't call the best series, but you can't say the Cubs would have won without his moves just as you can't say the Cubs would win for sure if Alou catches the ball last night. Its so easy to get emotional or upset after a series is over and want to look for a culprit, but why not act like the players and put the blame squarely on them? Baker doesn't make pitches, Baker doesn't fail to drive in the runs. A manager is a factor, but not the only one.
It's not just Baker.
All managers seem to have been schooled in the same stupid school of managing, all make the mistake of waiting until tired starters relinquish leads/present untenable situations rather than bring in a fresh arm from the pen.
I watch a LOT of baseball, and I see it ALL the time.
Again, it's one thing in the regular season, when you're trying to ensure that everyone gets an ample amount of playing time to keep them fresh, and in order to build character/the ability to get out of tough situations. But it boggles the mind why the same stupid strategy is employed in the playoffs, especially deciding games.
The strategy doesn't kill you in the regular season because every manager uses it; so if you get screwed because you left your starter in until he got rocked, it'll all even out at the end, because the opposing manager will do the same. In this game, McKeon yanked Redman relatively early and put in one of his top pitchers for only one early inning because he didn't want to waste an out.
That's gutsy, unconventional managing, and it contributed mightily to the Marlins' win tonight.
All managers seem to have been schooled in the same stupid school of managing, all make the mistake of waiting until tired starters relinquish leads/present untenable situations rather than bring in a fresh arm from the pen.
I watch a LOT of baseball, and I see it ALL the time.
Again, it's one thing in the regular season, when you're trying to ensure that everyone gets an ample amount of playing time to keep them fresh, and in order to build character/the ability to get out of tough situations. But it boggles the mind why the same stupid strategy is employed in the playoffs, especially deciding games.
The strategy doesn't kill you in the regular season because every manager uses it; so if you get screwed because you left your starter in until he got rocked, it'll all even out at the end, because the opposing manager will do the same. In this game, McKeon yanked Redman relatively early and put in one of his top pitchers for only one early inning because he didn't want to waste an out.
That's gutsy, unconventional managing, and it contributed mightily to the Marlins' win tonight.
Highly overrated? These guys carried this team within a game of the world series. I said it before and will say it again ... If the Cubs had a bullpen that could consistently get outs, these guys would not have to throw 130 pitches a start, and would not have ran out of gas.
My guess is that you maybe watched the last 2 or 3 games that they started, which is when those of us that have been watching them clearly saw a drop off in performance.
Try looking at some stats before you post, they don't lie.
And give Florida some credit, they make contact.
BL
My guess is that you maybe watched the last 2 or 3 games that they started, which is when those of us that have been watching them clearly saw a drop off in performance.
Try looking at some stats before you post, they don't lie.
And give Florida some credit, they make contact.
BL
Prior is not overrated. He's really outstanding, perhaps one of the top 5 pitchers in the game. Actually, who ranks ahead of him? Maybe Pedro, maybe Brown (but that's pushing it), and that's it. Schilling and Johnson may be finished. Maddux certainly ain't what he used to be. Beckett was awesome in this series, but way too early to put him among the elite. Halladay is pretty spectacular, and all the Yankees starters are good, but at their advanced age, don't have the same potential for the future. Behind Pedro, I think I'd rank Prior #1 in the game.
Wood is an excellent pitcher; led the league in strikeouts and last night tied for the most runs he's allowed all season. But he's not invincible. I don't watch a tremendous number of Cubs games, but I do follow the boxscores throughout the year, and he is prone to getting hit. He's got spectacular talent but he isn't quite the 'shut-down-we're-definitely-going-to-win' guy that Prior and Pedro are.
Now all they need is a decent manager.
Wood is an excellent pitcher; led the league in strikeouts and last night tied for the most runs he's allowed all season. But he's not invincible. I don't watch a tremendous number of Cubs games, but I do follow the boxscores throughout the year, and he is prone to getting hit. He's got spectacular talent but he isn't quite the 'shut-down-we're-definitely-going-to-win' guy that Prior and Pedro are.
Now all they need is a decent manager.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celaya:
Remember last year, The Giants led 5-0 bottom of the 7th against the angels in the world series. Russ ortiz was pitching one hell of a game. Didn't throw that many pitches but gave up back to back singles to start the 7th inning so what does Dusty do, Brings in the Felix rodriquez, gives up a 3 run homer on the first batter he faces, Angels then rally to win the game 6-5 in game 6 and then the following day went on to win the world series. Like I said Dusty "Fvcking" Baker is a Joke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go one step further It was reported Dusty wanted to give the ball to Ortiz for his trophy case
p.s post 969
Remember last year, The Giants led 5-0 bottom of the 7th against the angels in the world series. Russ ortiz was pitching one hell of a game. Didn't throw that many pitches but gave up back to back singles to start the 7th inning so what does Dusty do, Brings in the Felix rodriquez, gives up a 3 run homer on the first batter he faces, Angels then rally to win the game 6-5 in game 6 and then the following day went on to win the world series. Like I said Dusty "Fvcking" Baker is a Joke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go one step further It was reported Dusty wanted to give the ball to Ortiz for his trophy case
p.s post 969
