Can you doubt that the material world exists (plus other questions); Descartes, Locke, Berkeley.

Search
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
844
Tokens
I'm doing some revision for my exam (3 hours, 3 questions) this Saturday and since i'm learning something, you all might as well learn with me. We can both benefit.
The course title is Descartes to Kant: Knowledge and Metaphysics. It deals with the major philosophers of the 17th-18th centuries (englightment) including Descartes, Locke, Berkeley, Hume and Kant.

The first question is:
Can you doubt that there are such things as material objects? If you can, how can you resolve this doubt? (Answer in reference to Locke).

Descartes is most famous for writing the Meditations in which his aim (at first - in Meditation 1) was to sweep away all that he knew and accepted to be true by systematically doubting all material objets until he could start the foundations of what he could accept as really existing. He acknowledged that everything known to be true has come from or through the senses and that they are not always accurate and have been known to deceive, notably in dreams, illusions and mirages. He concluded that there may be some evil demon deceiving him into believing that the world actually existed where it may not.
Moving on to the Second Meditation, he came across a fundamental question. If the material world does not exist, does it mean that he exist? No. The evil demon cannot make him not exist as long as he thinks he exists as a thinking non-extended substance. This is where one of the most famous phrases in philosophy was used; "I think, therefore I am" (cogito ergo sum). So as long as he thinks, he exists. Next Descartes demonstrates this by using the example of a piece of wax. When hard wax is put next to fire it changes its qualities in that it becomes softer, has different colours, smells differently, is hot etc. His senses do not recogise this piece of wax as being the same piece of wax but the mind does. Hence, the mind is a better 'knower than the body'. He may not be perceiving at all but when he is perceiving the wax, he ecannot doubt that he is perceiving nor that he is judging what he perceives to be a piece of wax and that implies he exists. Descartes invokes the metaphor of perceiving something 'by the natural light' (Clearly and distinction principle) and it means that all clear and distinct perceptions come by means of the intellect and whatever you perceive clearly and distinctly must be true.
In Meditation 3, Descartes invokes the 'trademark argument' by introducing God into the picture. He proposes that God exists because (1)We clearly and distincly have the idea of God (and his perfection) in our mind, just like we can be sure that all triangles in the world have three sides without having to see every triangle, and; (2) That idea was put there by God. He tried to bridge the gap between the physical world and his 'Godly ideas'. Also, since nothing can come from nothing and the idea has to have a cause (the idea of God cannot come from nowhere), the original cause of that idea must be God. Next he differentiated between objective and formal reality; formal reality being reality intrinsic to themselves (the object in itself), while objective reality is reality of the things as they represent to us. One example would be a child who thinks he believes in Santa Claus (objective reality). In reality there is no Santa Claus (formal reality). Hopefully the logic will make sense in proving that God exists: (1) The cause of an idea must contain at least as much FORMAL reality as the idea has OBJECTIVE reality. (2) My idea of God has infinite OBJECTIVE reality.
(3) The cause of my idea of God has infinite FORMAL reality. (4) But the only thing that has infinite FORMAL reality is God. No effect can have a greater amount of reality than its cause. Also, existence is a prerequisit eto perfection and logic implies that it is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore, God must exist. One major objection to this is that if 1 and 2 are true then Descartes is guilty of circular reasoning (Cartesian Circle). Furthermore, to describe something as imperfect, one has to have an idea of perfection in the first place. One can say that X is better than Y but cannot say that X is better than perfection. Lastly, it is perfectly plausable to have an idea of God without God existing.
Moving on, Mediation 4 is crucial in that Descartes concludes that if God is perfect, omnipotent, good and so on, then he would not deceive because deceit is a sign of weakness and malice. Therefore material objects must exist. If God is so perfect why does he allow humans to err? The reason is the fundamental concept of free will; we misuse our judgement and God is not to blame. We can also not know God's true intentions because they are beyond our understanding.
In Meditation 4 he further enforces the idea that God exists by arguing that one can think of shapes that have never been seen and derive their properties clearly and distinctly as the idea of God (going back to the earlier example of a triangle). One ojection would be envision a 1000 sided figure.
Last comes arguably the crucial Meditation 6 which is known as the 'Ontological Argument'. In this argument Descartes envokes the concept of dualism in which the mind is distinct from the body and can live without it. The reason he comes to this conclusion is that the body is divisible and the mind is not. The mind and body being distinct but interlinked is expressed in the 'argument from doubt': Principle that if A and B are identical then whatever properties are possessed by A are possessed by B. In other words, can one think of Demi Moore's beauty without Demi Moore existing physically. To think otherwise would be prone to an intentional fallacy. The mind and the boy are distinct because theya re capable of being separated by God. Some objections to the 'Ontological Argument' are that brain damage impairs mental functions and there have been cases of 'split brain' where only one side of the 'mind' is active. Furthermore, Arnold proposed that someone ignorant of pythagoras theoram may well doubt it but the theory is an essential feature of all right-angled triangles. Lastly, how can we know if free will is really free?
All in all, Descartes does doubt that material objects may exist but resolves the doubt by invoking the concept of God and His goodness. So long as God exists, then he cannot deceive. However, the existence of God has been derived by reason alone and no experience so it may be prone to doubt and Descartes' whole argument would fall apart.

Locke is known as an empiricist in that he argues that all knowledge comes from experience alone and not from reason. He famously introduced the phrase 'tabula rasa' (blank slate) to invoke that as soon as babies are born they are like blank slates and experience is cast upon them. This was of course way before genetics and DNA was discovered. Therefore, unlike Descartes in the beginning, he rejects the notion that we can doubt material objects.
Saying that the world is supported by an elephant, he was asked what the elephant rested on which the answer was a giant tortoise. Asked again he asnwered that it was impossible to know and this referes to the limit of knowledge. In the book, Locke on Human knowledge he first attacks rationalism in the Attack on Innate Ideas. Anything innate is that which comes from reason alone and not from experience. His argument goes a bit like this: (1) If there are innate principles, then everyone would assent to them and there are no principles everybody assents to. (2) Regarding the possibility of innate moral knowledge his response is that no man would conset to even the most obvious moral knowledge without a great deal of reasoning. (3) Children come into the world devoid of ideas. (4) "Existence" and "identity" are least likely to be innate because they are difficult concepts to grasp. (5)Regarding the innate idea of God his response is that there are cultures that recognise no God. Importantly, his main critique is that it is impossible for innate knowledge to be in the mind and us not be conscious of it.
Moving on, how then do we experience material objects and where do they objects exist? It is clear that Locke believed that objects we perceive generally exist independent of our experience of them. Futhermore, the only things of which we have immediate knowledge of are our own ideas (and we do not have direct access to the world around us).
Locke breaks down the ideas into primary and secondary qualities. Primary qualities (texture, number, size, shape and motion) resemble the object in question while secondary qualities (colour, sound, taste and odour etc). Next comes the tricky bit: Secondary qualities are not in the object themselves but are powers to cause sensations and ideas in normal perceptual conditions. There is a causal relationship between the brown table (for example) and my idea of the 'browness' in my mind as an idea. That idea of browness is a private entity. A clearer example would be a sharp blade. Pain is not located in the blade itself but has the power to cause pain as an idea. However, primary qualities are universal whereas secondary are private ideas. The majority of what we observe are secondary qualities; we still do not know why particles of matter opearting on our organs give rise to the sensations they do. Only God knows and we cannot have knowledge of the nature of things.
All in all, Locke accepted the world for it is but gave it a different definition. Instead of invoking a supremely good God to prove that material objects he invoked the concept of ideas to prove his point.
 

Banned
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,441
Tokens
Perhaps you can help me with a serious problem

Once I dreamt I was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with myself and doing as I pleased. I didn't know I was EverFresh. Suddenly I woke up and there I was, solid and unmistakable EverFresh. But I didn't know if I was EverFresh who had dreamt I was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming I was EverFresh. Between myself and a butterfly there must be some distinction!
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
211
Tokens
Hey dude, if you want to explore a facet of the existential philosophy try watching a movie titled "WAKING LIFE" ... it is an animated movie that can only be termed brain candy. Real interesting stuff including the pervasive theme of "lucid dreaming".

Peace.
 

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
4,125
Tokens
A2345,

Read about what Kant said about "utility" or why men should strive to gain utility. BTW, you can wipe your ass w/ a degree in philosophy but GL.

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan
 

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
5,412
Tokens
EverF,

Was the butterfly just as "solid and unmistakable" as you were? Somehow I doubt it.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
I'm big on Locke myself, but of course that is also true of the forty-six or so other Americans who are sufficiently familiar with American history to know why we should be big on Locke.

icon_biggrin.gif


Phaedrus
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
844
Tokens
Yea Kant basically shut all the previous philosophers up with his Synthetic Apriori in the Critique of Pure Reason.

lol degree in philosophy, must be the most useless thing, im just taking this as an elective. Im finishing up my degree in law.

I hope my reasoning is coherent, afterall it is tricky stuff.

Tomorrow i'll post up the next answer to another question question. This time asking what the role that God plays in Descartes' and Berkeley's epistemology.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
844
Tokens
What role does God play in Berkeley's epistemology?

Berkeley is known as an idealist in that he argued that we have no reason to believe in the existence of mind independent material objects. In other words, objects do not exist without us perceiving them. Our experience of the world fundamentally involves pleasure and pain and these sensations cannot exist in the material world. Moreover, there are only two sorts of things in the world, ideas and the minds that have them. 'Real objects' are just a collection of sensations projected through our senses and only exist in the mind.
The 'Master Argument' goes like this: (1) We can conceive of a tree existing independent of our minds whatsoever if we can conceive of the tree existing unconceived, (2) An unconceived conceived thing is contradiction, (3) We cannot conceive of a tree existing independently of our minds - the moment we think of a tree it is in our mind.
How then does he deal with the objection that material objects do not pop out of existence when no one is looking? To solve this problem he invokes the idea of God; by insisting that if they are not being perceived by some created spirirt then they either have no existence at all, or else subsist in the mind of some eternal spirit (God). Hence, God is the ultimate perceiver. "I generally have no control over my ideas of sense; there is therefore some other will or spirit that produces them, moreover, the steadiness, order and coherence of ideas of sense are evidence of wisdom and benevolence of the spirit who produces them. For a real object to be perceived it merely has to be perceived by God. Furthermore, God is the cuase of ideas because those sensations are involuntary.
However, from time to time, God allows us to perceive these ideas, in certain fixed patterns called 'laws of nature'. One such law of nature is seeing fire accompanied by feeling hot.
(1) It is too much of a fluke that we are getting similar and predictable experiences, (2) There must sbe an infinite agent controlling it all more powerful and he makes things predictable.
One major objection to Berkeley's idea of God is that where are all these finite spirits? In order to exist they must exist in time and space.
All in all, Berkeley rejects both empiricism and skepticism in arguing that the world is only composed of ideas and minds. God was introduced merely to make his argument stronger because without God there would seem to be too much coincidence of seeing objects flicker on and off of existence when not perceiving them. Therefore if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? According to Berkeley, yes because God hears it.
 

Another Day, Another Dollar
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
42,730
Tokens
Quite simply, Is meditation a useful tool for our well-being?

Thanks
 

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
5,412
Tokens
I believe meditation is essential for our psychological and spiritual well-being and these in turn affect physical health.

The key in meditation, though, is to do it ourselves ie. deal with your own unique thoughts and problems, not those of someone famous or anyone else.

Descartes' meditations are nothing more than his own personal discovery of himself using language that everyone can understand and some can relate to. To read and appreciate it is not to meditate but to get to know Descartes personally. These are two totally different things, not to be confused with one another.

If you are going to meditate, just shut out all outside influences like the computer, telephone, TV, radio, other people etc. and go into deep think mode. That's it. Do not follow any sort of recipe and don't try to be like anyone else. If you can do that reasonably often your mental, spiritual and even physical health will improve IMO.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,812
Messages
13,573,559
Members
100,877
Latest member
kiemt5385
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com